Interesting Sailboats - Page 162 - SailNet Community
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post #1611 of 6763 Old 10-31-2011 Thread Starter
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Not long ago in another thread someone said that he never heard about Amel and recently another member posted that the boats he saw more frequently doing circumnavigations were precisely Amel.

I guess that other boat that you can find out there circumnavigating or in faraway places and that some of you never heard about is Garcia.

Garcia are mainly aluminium integral center boarders. Aluminum center boarders are a favorite among French circumnavigators and they are the ones that circumnavigate more.

I would say that the among the ones that chose a center boarder, the ones with less money buy OVNI or Allures, the ones that have the money for it buy Garcia, that is for more than 40 years the reference in what regards this kind of boat. Their Passoa and Salt series are already legendary boats. They only made 300 boats, but the percentage of those boats that are out there sailing in faraway places is very high.

Garcia has recently joined forces with Allures and Outremer to form a group that has as vocation to make several types of voyage boats. Garcia make the bigger ones.

They have an interesting blog:

Grand Large Café

Garcia clients have normally two characteristics: Have a lot of money and are good sailors, many buying another Garcia after having one, and many after have already circumnavigated.

Take a look at some of their boats:

The older ones are smaller:





yes, this is an old one It looks a new boat


The new ones are bigger. They don't have small boats anymore, the smaller they have now is a 47fter, but most of them are bigger. This one was bought by an old client that had circumnavigated already:









Some bigger ones:

















































Garcia are exclusive boats, for rich guys, but at least they are for rich guys that like to sail, but not in some Rollex regatta with a full professional crew. These are made to sail with a short crew (family) and to voyage to far away places and to live aboard...in comfort, that's for sure


....

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post #1612 of 6763 Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...Garcia are mainly aluminium integral center boarders. Aluminum center boarders are a favorite among French circumnavigators and they are the ones that circumnavigate more.

I would say that the among the ones that chose a center boarder, the ones with less money buy OVNI or Allures, the ones that have the money for it buy Garcia, that is for more than 40 years the reference in what regards this kind of boat. Their Passoa and Salt series are already legendary boats. They only made 300 boats, but the percentage of those boats that are out there sailing in faraway places is very high.

Garcia has recently joined forces with Allures and Outremer to form a group that has as vocation to make several types of voyage boats. Garcia make the bigger ones.....

Garcia are exclusive boats, for rich guys, but at least they are for rich guys that like to sail, but not in some Rollex regatta with a full professional crew. These are made to sail with a short crew (family) and to voyage to far away places and to live aboard...in comfort, that's for sure
....
Paulo, those Garcias are really nice. I love those centerboard versions with the twin rudders. Can they dry-out in the tidal flats?

Have you covered the yachts from Dutch builder K&M in this thread? Some are specifically designed for drying-put in areas with significant tide ranges. That is a feature which I would value highly for global voyaging.


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post #1613 of 6763 Old 10-31-2011 Thread Starter
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Paulo, those Garcias are really nice. I love those centerboard versions with the twin rudders. Can they dry-out in the tidal flats?

Have you covered the yachts from Dutch builder K&M in this thread? Some are specifically designed for drying-put in areas with significant tide ranges. That is a feature which I would value highly for global voyaging.
Yes, we had already talked about the Stadtship, Bestwind and Bestever. In what regards centerboarders I guess you refer to the Van de Stadt 56. We have already posted some pictures of that boat but you are right, it deserves more. I have a very weak internet connection and I have difficulty in posting decent sized pictures. In some days I will make a post about it.

There are two European schools in what regards center boarders, the Dutch one and French one. Dutch centerboarders are heavier, with more ballast. The French ones are lighter and faster. The French one is dominant and there are much more boats made according to that design criteria.

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post #1614 of 6763 Old 10-31-2011 Thread Starter
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Some posts back I had posted about this strange mini racer:





The boat had won a race on the mini circuit, not one of the big ones, but even so...quite impressive. The designer is also the skipper and the design is not an accidental good luck. The guy is a naval engineer and had predicted the boat performance in computer simulations. David Raison, that's his name, was involved with Lucas on the design of the first 40class racer with chines, the boat that started all that revolution on hull design. A creative guy.






I cannot say that I like his boat, but I have to admit that it works. He and his boat have just finished to won the more important mini race, between France and Brasil. And he have not won it on a strategic move or something like that, he won it with power and speed. On last 3 or 4 days of race, on the same course he put between him and the second 140nm. Truly incredible, well, the boat is called Magnum and that's for something. He also beat the race record time betweem Madeira and Rio de Janeiro averaging more than 7.5K, on a 22ft boat

Take a look at this movie:

David Raison, Magnum*: l

Quite clear isn't it?

Well, I guess that bow is really to radical for cruising boats, but I would expect that some class 40 will go that way. On cruising boats, even if I don't expect a so radical solution I expect to see some slightly rounded bows.

Funny, many years ago when I was reading a book about the design and building of XVI century sailing boats, I was a bit confused with one of the rules of what was considered good practice of the art of good design, something about a well rounded bow


...

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It's an interesting question as to whether this may be as bad in waves as intuition would have one think.

At first glance, "naturally" a pointy bow will slice through the water more easily.

But on second thought, if we compare equal beam (or thickness), which foil cuts through water better: one with a pointy leading edge, or a rounded one like this?

Actually the rounded one.

Of course, operating on the surface might change things.

Still, as ugly as this is, it has proven fast so far including in conditions that aren't anything like mirror smooth.

We may have prejudice against it because of high performance scows having so little freeboard as to be unable do well in waves, and we attribute their restriction to smooth condfitions to the roundness of the bow... but maybe that isn't the cause.

I hope this is not really faster, because it sure isn't pretty.

Another worthwhile question is that if not dealing with rating rules or concerned about per-foot mooring charges, would the boat be faster with the same amount of material and same construction cost put into a moderately longer boat with a finer bow?

Sure, one would probably gain only an extra couple of feet, but that might be enough to equal or more than equal the speed gain from the spoon bow.

(Of course we run into this consideration all the time with increased beam as well, but there seems usually to be little thought given to the fact that for same cost, more beam results in shorter length.)

Last edited by estaban; 10-31-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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post #1616 of 6763 Old 10-31-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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...
Another worthwhile question is that if not dealing with rating rules or concerned about per-foot mooring charges, would the boat be faster with the same amount of material and same construction cost put into a moderately longer boat with a finer bow?

Sure, one would probably gain only an extra couple of feet, but that might be enough to equal or more than equal the speed gain from the spoon bow.

(Of course we run into this consideration all the time with increased beam as well, but there seems usually to be little thought given to the fact that for same cost, more beam results in shorter length.)
Regarding price we would be lead to believe that a narrower cruising boat would be less expensive than a really beamy boat like the ones that take inspiration on the open class boats, but experience shows that it is not the case. A narrower boat needs more ballast to compensate the smaller form stability and that means the need of a stronger and more reinforced hull to be able to absorb the extra stress.

Also a narrow boat has a lot less interior space and for having the same space available on a beamy boat you need to compensate with length and will end up with a longer and even more expensive boat that will pay more at the marina.

In the end a narrow cruising boat is a more expensive option and that's why there are very few really narrow cruising boats.

One of the few that still remain is this one:



Nordborg Baadebyggeri A/S - Nordborg 40 - Bilder in Groansicht -

Beautiful boat, but you have on a 40ft the interior space of a 36ft

Regards

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post #1617 of 6763 Old 11-01-2011 Thread Starter
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Interesting question:



“What are the ideal characteristics of a blue water sailing yacht?”




And the answer is certainly interesting when given by a good and very experienced naval architect: Olivier Racoupeau

http://www.berret-racoupeau.com/



- It is difficult, even tricky to answer such a question.

The old-fashioned image of a boat full of bearded men lives on. The expression “blue water yachts” has become a generic term – like cars where a ‘four-wheel drive’ can mean anything from a Daktari Land Rover to a Porsche Cayenne. The boat that fits the buyer’s project and specific needs can always be found.

For a naval architect, it is important to identify the owners’ future requirements or the shipyard’s customer base. What will the boat be used for? Is the owner planning to sail to austere and remote regions like the far North or the Patagonian canals, where he will have to be totally self-sufficient; or will the yacht be used for sailing around the Atlantic, cruising the Casamance or the West Indies, or even sailing to Brazil and back?

Will the owner want a keelboat, a yacht with a centreboard or a multihull?

Will he want to sail fast or not? His schedule has to be precisely defined because there is a boat for each and every purpose.

Today, the market for blue water sailing yachts has grown considerably and there is a wide range of boats on offer.

There are aluminium monohulls with centreboard or keel, graceful and seaworthy, easy to handle and maintain.
With this type of sailboat, one can cruise in really difficult waters, as aluminium is indestructible.

There are also composite multihulls, which are light, comfortable and fast, for those who like speed and want to sail around the world at 12 knots or get from one place to the next without wasting time.

- Nevertheless, there are some important features to be considered, which are common to all blue water sailing yachts.

For instance, not only is it essential to have the capacity to produce drinking water, but a long distance cruiser must also be able to generate its own electricity. Our design office is always on the lookout for new means of producing electricity and ways to reduce and manage the consumption.

Another characteristic common to all blue water yachts is their inherent reliability. It is essential to have total confidence in the boat and its equipment. When considering the boat’s specifications, its reliability must be kept in mind at all times.

The equipment is not fitted to an ocean cruiser in the same way as it is to a dayboat. Accessibility also plays a vital role – not only must the crew be able to monitor all the systems, they must also be able to repair any breakage on board themselves; whereas the weekender can return to harbour and call on the services of a professional technician. On the high seas, all equipment must be accessible, functional and repairable. At the beginning, the owner may not be an expert; he will have to learn along the way how to manage the maintenance himself.

As far as the accommodation is concerned, there is a huge choice of plans available but the most popular is a three-cabin layout – one for the parents, one for the children and one for any guests invited to take part in a leg of the cruise. This is most suited to monohulls as on catamarans, there is often space for four cabins or more.”

There are many types of blue water sailing boats. Before buying, it is essential to identify clearly the sailing schedule and to consider the boat’s characteristics as far as self-sufficiency, reliability and equipment accessibility are concerned.

Finally, do not hesitate to ask the professionals questions; shipyards and architects specialising in ocean cruising yachts will be delighted to advise.



It seems like a sound advice to me, specially if we take into consideration that the guy is a good sailor and there are sailing around the globe about 15000 boats made according to his plans, all kind of boats, including blue water boats.

This interview was made by Allures shipyard. Allures is an Aluminum center boarder that is designed by him but it seems to me that he did not let is answer be prejudiced by that. Sure Allures are bluewater boats, as many other types of boats


..

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post #1618 of 6763 Old 11-01-2011
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Regarding price we would be lead to believe that a narrower cruising boat would be less expensive than a really beamy boat like the ones that take inspiration on the open class boats, but experience shows that it is not the case. A narrower boat needs more ballast to compensate the smaller form stability and that means the need of a stronger and more reinforced hull to be able to absorb the extra stress.

Also a narrow boat has a lot less interior space and for having the same space available on a beamy boat you need to compensate with length and will end up with a longer and even more expensive boat that will pay more at the marina.
Agreed completely on the interior space: Undoubtedly that is the killer in the market.

Meaningful comparisons become hard or impossible when not keeping as much possible as equal.

I was saying building longer for same cost, but it seemed you were describing different cost. Which would ruin the comparison.

It's certainly possible to build with narrower beam and some amount longer for same cost. This is the comparison I was making.

You lose space, no doubt. Whether you are slower or faster for having the greater length, granted that there is less form stability, is the question I am raising.

I suspect that where rating rules are not involved -- which penalize length -- it is really the space issue that drives wide beam, not speed for money. But to say the least, actually it is the very reason I write, I would love to learn more on it.

I don't have an interesting new boat in mind that is moderate or narrow beam and fast, beyond your posting the Luffe which seems more moderate in beam than most cruising or racing/cruising boats today. An interesting older boat (one-off) was Amati, which was for sale recently. Quite narrow, quite fast for her build cost or offered price, when offered. But as you say, much less room inside than people expect for length.
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post #1619 of 6763 Old 11-01-2011 Thread Starter
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This is a very nice little boat even more beautiful in this new and more agressive outfit (very Italian):







Well Italian boat but made in Poland, like many other French boats. Poland is becoming the biggest European boat manufacturer but their only well known boat is Delphia. That is changing.

We had already talked about the Cobra 33 today I will post about a good looking center boarder that is going to be presented on the fall European Salons, the Sedna. It comes in two versions, the 26ft and the 30ft, at unbeatable prices. They advertise it for about 26000€.

The 26ft:











The 30ft (alongside the 26ft on the 2 first images)












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post #1620 of 6763 Old 11-02-2011 Thread Starter
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As promised, here is the Vand de Stadt 56, that is built by K&M. Beautiful boat but more spartan than the Garcia 57, even if I doubt that less expensive.

The interior is less open, more traditional and less creative (but very well done). The interior looks also smaller and that is probably because the 56 is a really Pilot house with an enclosed fixed house while the Salt has a pilot house but with a removable house (kind of a cabriolet).


















The Salt 57 has two versions, one with a center cockpit other with a aft cockpit. The one with the Aft cockpit weights less 3000kg, the other has about the same weight. The board of the Garcia has more 67cm (3.67) and is ballasted (1500kg). The Garcia has a total ballast of 6800kg while the Stadt has more 900kg and 2000kg of liquid ballast. The sail area is not much different with 3.5 more meters for the Stadt (167.5).

Probably the fastest is the Salt 37 aft cockpit but the performances are not very different and this are all fast and seaworthy boats, good boats.

The bigger difference is in the interior conception. I don't know if I would not chose the stadt but I have to admit that the Salt even in the aft cockpit boat has a much more light and spacious interior, with a better design:












Take a look here, it deserves a look. Click in "Suivant".


http://pierrefrutschi.com/crbst_17.html




And the 57 CC interior is just awesome. It looks like a much bigger boat:


















Well, I decide the one I prefer after a test sail


....

Last edited by PCP; 11-02-2011 at 01:22 PM.
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