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  #1661  
Old 11-15-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

That dufour 36e looks like a real beauty.

Any idea when they are planning to make it available and pricing?

My calcs show the following:

D/L - 168 - will be a good light wind performer
SA/D - 19.2 - fairly low compared to Salona 38 which is 26.4 ...
B/D - 29.7 - this what my calculator shows but I am sure that AVS will be high given the depth of the keel and the bulb
L/B - 3.04 - moderate beam by modern standards
Draught - 2.2m - may be too deep if you are planning to use it as a performance cruiser - I am sure that the standard version will be around 1.95

There is definitely space for a 36e in their lineup given that they have the 34 e and the 40e is the next one up in terms of size.

I like the position of the galley ( not a bow to stern layout) as well and the fact that they are offering it with 2 berths as opposed to 3.

All the best

David
Hi David,

You are right, there are some error in those numbers: As you say with that Ballast and Displacement the D/B ratio would be 29.7%. Let's hope that the error is in the displacement that I find high for a performance 36ft.

Regarding to the sail area numbers you give I think there is a mistake. The SA/D for the given sail areas is 21.29 and not 19.2. Besides that boat has a small genoa (114%). With a 140% Genoa those numbers are going to be bigger.

The boat will be presented at the Paris boat show (December). They did not tell anything about the price.

This one will be in direct competition to a new Salona, a 35ft that is going to be presented at the Dusseldorf boat show (January), with Elan 350 and First 35.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1662  
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On the category of the dream boats, at least for me there is the TS50 and TS 52 that is just a small variation of the first. At least this one we can charter....

The boat is the kind of boat that is made by guys that know a lot about multihulls to sailors that know a lot about multihulls. Not a boat for a beginer, but what a boat

























From a boat test sail by Multihulls magazine:


At the origin of this catamaran -a prolific architect and fast catamaran enthusiast (Christophe Barreau) and a well-known ocean racer, the fastest man around the world singlehanded: Francis Joyon...

With such parentage, this catamaran could only be of noble birth, and particularly fun to sail. To judge for ourselves, we had an appointment in Martinique for a test sail. Just talking about it still makes me drool!

The conditions were windy: a steady 20knots, with gusts of up to 28. As
for the sea conditions in the Saint Lucia channel, they were rough, with waves of up to 2.5mand a very disorganised sea.

Wedged into the bucket seat, worthy of a sea-going formula 1... it was enough to sheet in slightly to feel the TS accelerate hard! The proof? After
a particularly successful missed tack by your humble servant, we went from 1 knot to 12 in less than 10 seconds. Clear, impressive acceleration, which above all puts all your senses on the alert!

But what pleasure! The boat slips through the water incredibly smoothly and
almost gives you the impression of being a good helmsman! And talking of the helm – the position is ideal, even though at the stern, given the speeds reached, you sometimes have the impression of facing a fire hose.

The tiller is little heavy, but once the 10-knot barrier is passed (i.e. immediately...) it becomes very pleasant. It demands a bit of strength, but nothing impossible, and above all you can really feel the boat.

A MUST! But what is most remarkable about the TS 50 is not the top speed (21.5 knots with 20 knots of wind in a wild surf...), but the impressive average speeds. Constantly between 16 and 20 knots in this rough sea, with fiendish acceleration: bear away and it accelerates. You would think you were
on a windsurfer.
...

CONCLUSION

But who is the TS 50 aimed at?
Undeniably at an experienced crew, who put the priority on performance, seakeeping qualities and life aboard in the ‘nautical’ sense of the term... It is a
pure pleasure to helm. To such a point that since these first impressions, I have just one wish: to test the machine over a week - the time it takes for a
rapid return trip to the Grenadines!


You can read the full test here:

Catalogue - TS 50 - Xlight Catamaran - (Version PDF)



Or charter one here (with skipper):

location lagoon 440 aux antilles

Baies du monde




Just take a look at the movie from that test sail


test TS 52 por multihulls-world



Technical characteristics

Length 15.24 m
Beam 8.00 m
Draught 1.20 / 2,80 m
displacement 7 T
Mainsail area 82 m˛ + Mat aile en carbone
Genoa area 51 m˛
Trinquette 19 m˛
Motors 2 x 29 CV DIESEL
Fuel 160 Litres
Eau 220 Litres
+ Dessalinisateur de 180 l/h

Architects Barreau


Take a look at the Architect site:

AC-TS50

....

Last edited by PCP; 11-15-2011 at 04:02 PM.
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  #1663  
Old 11-15-2011
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Paulo,
Fantastic!
The TS50 is just freakin' awesome. It pretty much grabs exactly what I have in my head as my idea of a perfect boat...(for me). Just looking now where I can put my wife's bath tub though . Just joking....(kind of...)
Thanks for posting it!
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  #1664  
Old 11-15-2011
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Hi Nemier!

Have you already decided on the Cat?

By now you should know by now more than me about cats, but do you know these ones? I have heard good things about.



Luxury Yachts and Catamarans for Sale from Cape Town South Africa | Admiral Yachts

Regards

Paulo
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  #1665  
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I have already posted about the Finn Flyer 42 but this boat is so gorgeous...and a beautiful movie had appeared posted by a team that race the boat. The race is one of the more famous among the Nordic ones, this year's edition with 400 sailing boats, the Tjorn Runt offshore race:


Tjörn Runt Utvalda scener from Joel Kvarnsmyr on Vimeo.










As you can see this is a fast boat

Here some very good photos of the Finn Flyer 42:

ff42_avantime_flickr-1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


.....

Last edited by PCP; 11-15-2011 at 09:51 PM.
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  #1666  
Old 11-16-2011
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Do you know Philippe Poupon? If not that means you are not French neither a fan of solo sailing.

Poupon had participated in 2 Vendee Globe races, finished one in 3th, won 3 times La Figaro solitaire, had the record of the Atlantic Transat, and won one Route du Rhum in a big multihull, just to mention the more important.

So this guy, a racer on Open 60 and Big Multihulls has decided to go out cruising with his family, a big one with a dog included and not only he decided to circumnavigate but also make it by the most lonely and wild places in the planet.

With a help of a friend naval Architect, Joubert ( a big one best known by his multihulls design), Poupon has designed the boat to do it.

That's interesting eh! A guy with a huge knowledge of the sea and sailboat chose to design the perfect bluewater boat for cruising with the family in places where the sea is wild and sometimes with icebergs. The perfect high latitude bluewater boat.

Well, does he have chosen a beamy and powerfull boat based on an Open 60?

No!

Does he have chosen a big cruising multihull?

No!

In fact he had chosen what most French chose for long range cruising, a aluminum centerboard with some differences to what we can find on the market:

It is a big boat, more narrow than usual and it is a ketch!!!










Take a look at this beautiful movie:




(to be continued)
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Some more information about the boat and the sailing impressions by the skipper:


Philippe Poupon designed the Fleur Australe after several years sailing the southern and Antarctic seas in his original 12-meter boat.

Launched from La Rochelle in December 2008, the Fleur Australe is a nearly 20-meter sailboat designed by Philippe Poupon himself and built at the Meta shipyard in Lyon based on plans by Michel Joubert.

The new boat is designed for sailing and maritime observation in all latitudes. With its reinforced aluminum hull, watertight bulkheads, two heating systems and a pilot house, the prototype is custom designed for a trip through the ice. It can even withstand "growlers," chunks of ice that form as icebergs melt. With its drop keel lifted by a hydraulic jack and its shallow draft, it can easily navigate rivers and safely run aground.

The Fleur Australe is a ketch rig with a guyless carbon fiber mizzenmast, and its aft deck has space for two dinghies specially equipped for more advanced sample taking and observations.

The boat left France in February 2009 for its first 8-month expedition through the Atlantic, Arctic and Pacific Oceans. Its second journey is now underway, this time a 3-year voyage that will take it from the North to the South Pole.

After his initial outings and his first expedition, Philippe Poupon expressed complete satisfaction with the boat's performance:

"It's a good boat, and has worked well and effectively since it was launched. It's a real pleasure to sail, and with the enclosed cockpit, you feel like you're driving in a big slipper! What a dream! We made some good choices, and I have no regrets about the decisions we made. We had a good team that applied all its expertise and experience toward achieving the objectives we had set, and what an excellent result!

The sailboat remains balanced at every speed and stable upwind at slower speeds, especially for a drop-keel boat that has to solve the sticky equation of rudder size and efficiency.

No problems with the sails, there's a good balance, each sail is the right size, and the gennaker is perfect in terms of cut and recovery (it is a little strained and a little fragile, we'll go easy on it so it lasts). Running before the wind, its large booms make it easy to use and replace a spinnaker that would require more delicate maneuvering.

The two masts are perfect. The main mast is simple and robust, and the two well blocked, vertical booms do not cause any problems maneuvering. The mast steps in the shrouds and the crow's nest were helpful several times in detecting shoals. The carbon fiber after mast does an excellent job as derrick, and is sufficiently stiff at sea.

The cockpit and the rigging for the sheets, rollers, boom preventers and runners work perfectly, and the electric winch for the gennaker rollers and furling system is ideal.

Running upwind, with 25/30 knots, the boat moves quickly and the rudder does not stall.

The autopilot reacts efficiently. Both cylinders were used, and the little Lecombe and Schmit is enough. The rudder is well offset and its modest size makes it highly effective. A self-cleaning propeller improves the rear water flow and drag.

No problems with the various foils, propeller rudder or skeg in front of the main rudder.

The keel functions perfectly. Running aground on several sand banks and the ice field gave us a chance to test its usefulness. Between the thruster and the rudder, we had no difficulty floating off.

The opening created when the keel is down in the centerboard housing bubbles slightly in certain ocean conditions with swell. We felt the jolts from the bottom of the well deck. This didn't seem to affect speed, since the boat surfs well downwind. We kept up good speeds of 10 knots, with peaks up to 13 knots, before a 25-30 knot wind.

The rudder in front of the propeller is effective under certain strong wind conditions when we need to pivot the boat to leave a mooring.

When mooring, the hydraulic anchor windlass controlled from the cockpit is a marvel, and the chain counter completes the system perfectly.

The aft boarding ladders are amazing and more effective than I had even hoped. Berthing the dinghy aft, getting into and out of the dinghy, everything can be done in complete security. The handrails, the dive ladder, all of it works perfectly.

The aft decks for the dinghy, with the mizzenmast as a derrick, are very practical.

Thanks to its excellent insulation, the Fleur Australe provides a great deal of food and energy reserve autonomy. Most power is supplied by solar panels and a wind turbine. Fuel oil is used only for heating and to run the generator that is still required in certain extreme conditions.

The boat's enclosed cockpit makes life on board considerably more comfortable. The versatile space can be used for sleeping, eating or even working (keeping watch, taking the helm or navigating) thanks to its panoramic view.

The large head is optimally laid out for cooking just like at home, including a stovetop and oven. These features make the Fleur Australe a comfortable living space even for long missions.

The Fleur Australe, which can house a crew of up to eight, carries all the necessary safety equipment including exposure suits for each crew member, distress beacons, radar, satellite communications, and weather forecasts. Still, having children on board required a few additional features, such as nets installed between the guard lines and custom life vests.


Fleur Australe - Fleur Australe EN



The boat does not appear to be particularly fast to me, considering that it is an almost 20m boat, but when one chose to have a boat to live like home you pay that in weight and speed. I guess that Philippe wife had a definitive say about that

They don't say but the boat only in tankage carries 5000 L of fuel and 2000 L of water, that makes about 7T only in tankage weight

Technical characteristics:

LOA 19,26 m
LWL 17,13 m
Beam 5,35 m
Draft 1,65-3,75 m
Displ. 34 t loaded
Ballast 5 t
Sails 163 m2
Fuel 5 000 l
Water 2 000 l
Material Srongal (thick aluminum)

Architects Joubert / Nivelt
Shipyard Meta


Take a look at the ballast and you will see that it appears to be ridiculously low, as much as the tankage weight. This means that on this boat the weight distribution was essential and that the skipper had to take care of that at all times.

The boat has a rather uncommon skeg and ruder(s) arrangement, have a look at that and at the hull:







And some other pictures:











You can also see some good photos here:

Philippe Poupon évalue Fleur Australe



Well, and the boat is for sale, if you want to buy it:

fleur australe



You can find 11 interesting movies about their voyage. I will post this one that is in English:




And this one on Canada:


Last edited by PCP; 11-16-2011 at 03:52 PM.
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  #1668  
Old 11-16-2011
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They have announced the new Salona 35 for Dusseldorf, in January, but the boat is already on the water, probably testing and it is a gorgeous boat





They have posted in their site some information about the boat with some photo realistic images, but the real boat is a lot nicer
















They say about the new boat:

Every Salona is a result of teamwork of external and internal designers among which we are proud to men¬tion J&J Salona 35 designers, Jason Ker (keel optimization), many Olympic and professional sailors, interior designers, suppliers and most importantly existing cruising or racing Salona customers. All these people have one simple goal - to design and build globally competitive fast sailing yachts that can win any regatta but at the same time have uncompromised comfort and safety while cruising.

Well, they don't say much

The technical characteristics say more:

LWL 9,16 m
B. max. (deck) 3,36 m
Draft 1,5 / 1,75 / 2,15 m
Balast 1200-1500 kg
DSPL empty 4900 kg
Mainsail full batten 32,00 m2
Genoa furling 37,50 m2
Sail area total 69,50 m2
Fresh water tank 200 l
Black water tank 42 l
Fuel tank 90 l
Engine 15,3 kW (21 HP)
Design Category A (Ocean)
CE Certification GL
Design J&J

These seems to be the 34 hull (that was a recent one) with a two wheel setup, retouched keel and a more modern cabin design and interior. It has the same weight but more 100kg of ballast and that permits more 2 sqm of sail.

Light and with a lot of sail and a relatively narrow hull this, like the 34, is going to be a fast boat.

A 25% B/D ratio (on a 2.15m keel) seems not very substantial but that should indicate a torpedo keel to maximize RM and limit the needed weight. The 1,5m draft keel will have a more substantial 31% B/D for an equivalent RM.
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  #1669  
Old 11-17-2011
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Boat Design Now and Then

Hi Folks

I have heard it said that in the good old days, boats were designed to sail well in the first place and the accommodation was designed around this requirement. Safety was an integral part of designing a good sailing yacht. Nowadays, accomodation and comfort is the primary driver and acceptable sailing performance is the new benchmark for many yacht designs. Safety is measured by the Stix and AVS ratings together with the stability curve which most manufacturers are not too keen to make public. This has already been discussed to some extent on this thread and I don't wish to revisit that rabbit hole. The point is that we are often left to form our own opinions regarding safety by considering the boat's reserve stability via it's B/D ratio and its form stability by looking at the hull and keel shape.

The latest postings on the Salona 35 which shows a B/D of 25% on a 2.15m keel with bulb and therefore low centre of gravity and the new Dufour 36e which shows a B/D of 29.7% on a 2.20m bulb keel leaves me thinking that perhaps these boats are being designed with too much emphasis on speed where weight is a primary concern and not enough on safety. There are many other examples where the new B/D norm appears to be way less than 30% with stability relying primarily on form stability via a beam carried far back as well as through the use of hard chines. This design is in sharp contrast to the advice given by the Pardey's in the September issue of Sail magazine where they were advocating a high B/D ratio for cruising - such as that found on a Catalina 38 where the B/D is around 39%. I understand that the primary use of a Salona 35 and a Dufour 36e is probably not cruising but surely there is a common denominator as regards safety in all boats.

Form stability is great as long as the boat is not knocked down in a broach or whatever. At this point, reserve stability is what counts in terms of the boat righting itself and righting as quickly as possible. A boat which stands out for me in the modern crop of boats is the Salona 38 which has a B/D of 36% and a standard draught of 1.98. If my memory serves me, I seem to remember that Paulo has asked Salona to increase the weight of the bulb over and above this so it seems fair to assume that this is a primary concern of his too?

My personal interest is to cruise but to have fun whilst doing so, so if I can get from A to B quickly, then all the better. With the exception of the Salona 37 and Salona 38, most performance cruisers that I been tracking - Elan 37 and 380, First 35 and First 36.7, Dufour 34e and 36e and Jeanneau Sunfast 37 - have B/D ratios from around 30% to 33% whilst the cruisers with good performance (Jeanneau 36i Performance, Beneteau Oceanis 37, Hanse 385, SO379, Dufour375) all seem to have B/D ratios of around 27/28%. The standout in this last grouping as regards B/D is the Elan Impression 384 with a B/D of 32.6 and a Stix of 40!! (but unfortunately the boat is heavier and pays for it on the performance side) I am constrained by budget and so my universe excludes the likes of Malo, HR, Najad, Grand Soleil, Solaris et al

The question is therefore: have we been brainwashed by the various manufacturers to accept a yacht with a reserve stability that is lower than it used to be on account of improved form stability through hull and keel design?

Comments?

David
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  #1670  
Old 11-17-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi Nemier!

Have you already decided on the Cat?

By now you should know by now more than me about cats, but do you know these ones? I have heard good things about.



Luxury Yachts and Catamarans for Sale from Cape Town South Africa | Admiral Yachts

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo,
No, I have not decided on the Cat and it's quite a long story, one better told over a cool beer I have not been on Sailnet for quite some time, perhaps 6 months? - though I'd drop by from time-to-time, to get my sailing fix
I've been hanging out on the Nordhavn Dreamers site, because we were all set to buy a Nordhavn 62 My wife and I fell in love with the boat and the idea of how she'd traverse the world with us. That plan has sort-of been pulled away from us because the particular boat we were after is already selling.
Sooo, I'm busy making Lemonade over here. Every cloud has a silver lining though, and perhaps my love of sailing can be fulfilled after all. My wife has been spoiled by boats that don't heal anymore so the obvious choice is a Cat & I've only started half-hearted looking last week.

We are still forging away with the plan though. We are selling our house next spring to finance the boat, and hopefully heading out in the next year or two.
I guess it's going to be interesting to see what we actually end up with? In the mean time, we're using our own boat every time I'm home. I was just flipping through my log and we've cruised over 3500 miles in the last two years...

OK, back to Cats...The Admiral seems a fine yacht but not sure about the weight. I'd personally prefer a helm station further aft as well, on the hulls like Catanas, Nautitechs or Priveleges. I haven't seen one yet that really appeals to me (apart from anything designed by Ron Given) but they are all one-off's. Something always seems to be missing. Anyway, they certainly represent the best choice for me at the moment. I'm looking every single day and I'm lovin' it. Ciao.
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