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  #171  
Old 09-02-2010
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On design - Cats and Trimarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
That is one serious looking tri! I think I could handle training wheels if I could get one of them. Way better looking than the cats around town!

Marty
There is a significant difference between a stability curve of a tri and the one of a cat.

Basically when a small cat (less than 50ft) starts to lift its amas, there is very little stability left and you can capsize really fast. In a tri it is normal to sail with an ama out of the water and when the central body starts to lift you have much more time to let go the sails.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  #172  
Old 09-02-2010
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Pogo 12.50

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Yes, Dragonfly is a really great boat. Incredibly fast!
The disadvantage from my point of view is that you have relatively little space inside (about the size of a 30 foot boat) compared for such a high price. Too small for long family trips.
By they way: The first Pogo 12.50 photos are not online on the pogostructures website.
Ulf
Yes, I agree with you. For more extensive cruising is strictly a two person boat and the price... well, there are rich peole with good taste

By comparison the Pogo 12.50 price is low :

Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website) | Pogo 10.50, Pogo 12.50, Pogo 40s2, Pogo 50, Pogo 30

I believe you can have one fully equipped one for about 250 000 euros, including 20% VAT (European tax.)

Regarding the boat, the interior looks better than what I expected. My only reserves are about the single tiller and the absence of back-stay (and even if the price seems fair it is probably a bit too much for me). And what about the doors? This one was supposed to have doors. I don't see any.

I will be at the Paris boat show to see it better

And here are the photos you mentioned (the boat is beautiful).







Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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  #173  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And what about the doors? This one was supposed to have doors. I don't see any.
As far as I understood there is ONE door and that is the door to the toilet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I will be at the Paris boat show to see it better
Please don't be disappointed. Pogostructures has told me

"We sell our boats with a price near the industrials boats but build with hand. To do it we do direct selling, no advertising, a just 2 boat show : Paris boat show without boat (just an office) and the on water La Rochelle boat show with our boats. So the only exhibition where the Pogo12.50 will be viewable is La Rochelle in September."

Ulf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
As far as I understood there is ONE door and that is the door to the toilet.



Please don't be disappointed. Pogostructures has told me

"We sell our boats with a price near the industrials boats but build with hand. To do it we do direct selling, no advertising, a just 2 boat show : Paris boat show without boat (just an office) and the on water La Rochelle boat show with our boats. So the only exhibition where the Pogo12.50 will be viewable is La Rochelle in September."

Ulf

I can confirm that. Pogo will not have a real boat on show in Paris. They will however invite you for a free weekend in Benodet to take a walk thruthe factory, take a sea trial for a couple of hours, and have a long discussion about the design principles and the builders. Very engaging folks but you won't get a walk around in Paris like you can expect with Elan, X, Jboats, Benny, Jeanneau, etc, etc.

The 40 with the swing keel looks near ideal if a bit large for a 3-6 month "sabbatical". For the moment, I'm hooked on the 10.50, but the 40 has that extra space I've been looking for with all the same amenities of the 35... "Just" another 65K€ on the bill.... ouch....
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  #175  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
..
Do you know prices for the Oleas?
Now that I am at home and have found the magazine I can

The Oléa 44 was tested by voile magazine (mars edition, you can buy it online, they have a digital version) and the price they have mentioned was 320 000 euros for a naked boat and 360 000 for the tested boat (prices with French Vat).

Voile Magazine|Buy Single Issues | Zinio Digital Magazines and Books
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  #176  
Old 09-02-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post




Now those are about the size of hull windows that could satisfy me....

Don't like the galley though...
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  #177  
Old 09-02-2010
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Paulo—

First, the catamaran does not have AMAS...the AMAS are the smaller outrigger hulls on a TRIMARAN or PROA. A Catamaran has two HULLS.

When you're in a cruising size catamaran, you really should never be flying a hull. IF you are flying a hull in a cruising sized catamaran, regardless of LOA, you're being an idiot and deserve what you get.

Not all trimarans are designed to fly an ama. Many cruising designs, including my Telstar 28, are designed to sail with all three hulls in the water normally. In fact, depending on what the design is, flying an ama may be a warning sign of the boat being overpowered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There is a significant difference between a stability curve of a tri and the one of a cat.

Basically when a small cat (less than 50ft) starts to lift its amas, there is very little stability left and you can capsize really fast. In a tri it is normal to sail with an ama out of the water and when the central body starts to lift you have much more time to let go the sails.

Regards

Paulo
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  #178  
Old 09-02-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Now those are about the size of hull windows that could satisfy me....

Don't like the galley though...
..not to mention ZERO hand-holds and sharp corners...

I dunno.. what is WITH designers these days?? They expect people to move around a sailing boat under sail without anything to hang on to?

FWIW there's a nice write-up of the new Hanse in the latest Cruising Helmsman magazine.
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  #179  
Old 09-03-2010
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Cruising trimarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Paulo—

First, the catamaran does not have AMAS...the AMAS are the smaller outrigger hulls on a TRIMARAN or PROA. A Catamaran has two HULLS.
.
Sorry about my bad Englhish. In all other languages that I speack there are not a different name for the hulls of a multihull (tri or cat), so I have assumed that the amas where the hulls of a multihull. Thanks for the correction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
When you're in a cruising size catamaran, you really should never be flying a hull. IF you are flying a hull in a cruising sized catamaran, regardless of LOA, you're being an idiot and deserve what you get.

Not all trimarans are designed to fly an ama. Many cruising designs, including my Telstar 28, are designed to sail with all three hulls in the water normally. In fact, depending on what the design is, flying an ama may be a warning sign of the boat being overpowered.
I believe you have misunderstood me. I have said:

"There is a significant difference between a stability curve of a tri and the one of a cat.
Basically when a small cat (less than 50ft) starts to lift its amas, there is very little stability left and you can capsize really fast. In a tri it is normal to sail with an ama out of the water and when the central body starts to lift you have much more time to let go the sails."

And I believe that this is correct. It is out of the scope of this thread but if you want to discuss the differences in a stability curve between a cat and a tri you can open a thread about it and I will post some stability curves.

What I mean is that when a cruising cat lifts a hull, you are in trouble. I am not talking about doing it purposely, but sometimes it happens (as in the recent Australian accident). When it starts to happen you have little time to correrct the situation.

About the trimarans, when I have said that it is normal to sail with an hull out of the water, I mean that in the generality of the trimarans, that is not a dangerous situation (unlike the cruising cats) because you still have plenty of reserve stability.

Even huge and heavy trimarsns can sail safely with an ama out of the water. Here you have some pictures, including one from a Telestar:



But I was referring mostly to fast cruising trimarans (why sailors would want a boat that has less interior space than a monohull and is more expensive if it is not faster?) and for those it is normal to raise a ama even without much wind, some with weak wind.

Here you have photos of most of the cruising trimarans on the market, at least the ones I know :



Regards

Paulol

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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  #180  
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Paulo— All of the last set of photos are TRIMARANS, not Catamarans.

Yes, it is true that a catamaran that has a hull flying is on the border of capsizing, since it often takes very little additional wind to flip one that is already flying a hull. However, as I said, any sailor that has gotten into the position where they are flying a hull on a cruising catamaran, is doing something really, really wrong.

While flying an ama isn't as dangerous as flying a hull on a catamaran, it is usually a warning sign that the boat is overpowered. A majority of the photos of trimarans you have are of primarily two brands—quorning dragonflies and farrier-based Corsairs. I'm not surprised that these are flying an ama, as they are designed to do so... and even at rest, some of these designs will generally have one of the amas out of the water a tiny bit.

I'd point out that the photo of the Telstar 28 is one that Tony took for a magazine article about the boat and the boat in question is a tall-rig version that is completely unloaded—I have seen the entire photo set from the photo shoot in question. It doesn't have almost any of the tools, supplies or equipment that would normally be aboard a Telstar equipped for cruising—and is probably significantly lighter. I'd also point out that the ama is still touching the water, it's high, but still touching. If it were loaded as a normal cruising boat would be, it would have all three hulls firmly in the water.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

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