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  #1791  
Old 12-17-2011
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Announcing SW's 2012 BOTY Winners | Sailing World

Some more garbage from the local SBOTY rags, ie Sailing World. I can not argue with 3 of the 4, but that freaking C&C 121 with a new deck plan.....as a T4000.......egads......anyway, back to house work. Have my one of two weekends off tween now and mid feb, then one off until late march as the winters of snow ski instruction on weekends have now hit! 33 season thank you very much of this!

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  #1792  
Old 12-17-2011
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Announcing SW's 2012 BOTY Winners | Sailing World

Some more garbage from the local SBOTY rags, ie Sailing World. ... freaking C&C 121 with a new deck plan.....as a T4000.......egads...

Marty
Very funny a Tartan 4000 being chosen as PERFORMANCE cruiser of the Year

It is funny because a Jeanneau 409 THAT IS NOT A PERFORMANCE CRUISER would easily smoke the Tartan 4000, I mean in its standard version. In its performance version (that does not make it a performance cruiser, only a fast cruiser) the Jeanneau would turn circles around the PERFORMANCE Tartan 400.

Some ratios between the two boats:

SA/D (the bigger the faster) - Tartan 4000 - 19.6....... Jeanneau 409 - 20.79 or 24.79.

D/L ratio(the smaller the faster) - Tartan 4000 - 181.5.......Jeanneau 409 - 120.8

And it is not only the Jeanneau 409, if I posted the numbers from the Dufour 405 (another cruiser) they would be very similar to the ones from Jeanneau. I guess that even the new Benetau Oceanis 41 is faster than the Tartan.

Only in what regards B/D the Tartan 400 has a slightly higher ratio, 0.326 to 0,303 but the Tartan keel is much wider and have less proportion of the ballast on the bulb.

Note that I am not saying that the Tartan 4000 is a bad boat neither I am saying that it is better or worse than the Jeanneau, only saying IT IS NOT A PERFORMANCE CRUISER.

If that boat is a performance cruiser what do you call to real performance cruisers like the Salona 41, The XP 38 or the Grand Soleil 39?

The Tartan 4000 is a luxury cruiser and should be compared with boats like the XC 42, the Halberg Rassy 372 (that was on the contest), boats that cost aproximatedly the same price and that are not maximized to performance while cruisers.

Last edited by PCP; 12-17-2011 at 06:03 PM.
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Thanks Paolo

Hi Paulo,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the education. I was raised in the Newport, RI area and am now land locked in the desert dreaming of sailing into the sunset. I've found this thread incredibly addictive and recently finished reading all of it. I NEED MORE!

I was wondering if you'd be interested in starting a separate thread about YOUR new boat and specifically the customizations you requested. I think your input, thoughts, musings and specifications would be incredibly helpful to those of us who don't have the cruising experience sufficient to know what we do or don't like (YET ).

..anyway, just a suggestion.

To all the others who have contributed so much, thanks to you too!

Regards,

Last edited by opc11; 12-17-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Hi Paulo,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the education. I was raised in the Newport, RI area and am now land locked in the desert dreaming of sailing into the sunset. I've found this thread incredibly addictive and recently finished reading all of it. I NEED MORE!

I was wondering if you'd be interested in starting a separate thread about YOUR new boat and specifically the customizations you requested. I think your input, thoughts, musings and specifications would be incredibly helpful to those of us who don't have the cruising experience sufficient to know what we do or don't like (YET ).

..anyway, just a suggestion.

To all the others who have contributed so much, thanks to you too!

Regards,
Welcome to the thread, and glad to know that you have find it useful

But Opc, my boat is my personal choice in what regards my needs according with my budget. May not be yours and yours can be different from another sailor. Boats are always compromises and there is no right boat for everybody.

On this thread we have many different types of boats even if we consider only cruising boats. There is no right or wrong, most of them are great boats, and to the right sailor many would be the perfect boat...I mean for each different sailor

I don't think that makes any sense to treat my choice differently than the one that make Eric or Anders. They are all perfect boats for each of us

Regards

Paulo
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On the Paris boat show I had seen the most strange sailing boat I ever saw and I have seen some strange boats.

They have there the Mirabaud LX



Take a better look:



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  #1796  
Old 12-18-2011
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So this strange spider works with foils. We all no Moth sailboats that have adopted foils, but the boat was not conceived initially as a foiler and I remember that 6 years ago sailors still considered that has a freak thing, a lonely guy and an acrobat that was doing crazy things in a boat.

Not anymore pretty much all Moth now use foils and thy race the boats in that configuration and they have gone farther and joined a wing to the concept:



But of course, you cannot take a pas sager on that thing and even to sail it you have not only to be a good sailor but an athlete and even so that demands a lot of training before be able to fly the thing properly. We can see here the body movement ant the delicate balance that is needed:





However in what regards things that can in the future be applied to cruising or even to pleasure sailing, I mean without the need for you to be a top racing sailor,the application of foils to multihulls seems a lot more promising. We all now the Hydroptere, the French trimaran that has the world record sailing speed and that can fly even with the sea not properly flat





But there are other less known interesting experiences some of them developed by talented young designers, like this very interesting one one:




Even big companies like Hobbie cat are developing the concept and this is a very interesting sail machine:



Regarding this concept that seems to work very well I have only one doubt. How the heel they reef the sails if the wind is suddenly too much?

Anyway these concepts are a lot more interesting in what concerns pleasure sailing not only because they are much easier to sail and can even carry passengers as also when the boat "falls" and start sailing as a regular boat, you don't crash like in a Moth:


Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2011 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 12-18-2011
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Well, and to the ones, like me, that are dreaming with summer cruises nothing better than a good cruising movie like this one:



The boat is a great bluewater boat, the Sabre 456, still on the line of Sabre yachts. The boat is basically the old 452 (1998) with some modifications. The 452 is a Jim Taylor design and he says about the boat:

The S-452 was marketed as a ‘blue water’ cruiser, and ample storage capacity and cruising amenities were a high priority.

Here you have a BWS review:

BLUE WATER SAILING

It is still a great (and expensive) sailboat but the hull and keel design shows clearly its age and it is a pity because that is a nice looking boat with a very good and beautifull classic interior (please, can someone take away those ugly rugs?) :














Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 12-18-2011
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Six or seven years ago , in another forum, on a thread about tendencies in design regarding future hull shapes of cruising boats, I said that I believed that cruising boats were gonna be more beamy and with the beam carried aft. I was so flamed that i give up to post on that forum but I was pretty sure that I was right. Now the biggest mass production boat builder has all its cruising series (Sense and Oceanis) designed that way.

The question is why? Well today's cruising boats and even more in the future are solo sailed or sailed by a couple and most of the time the help the wife gives is very limited. Given this picture it seemed obvious to me that the hull shape more indicated for short crew sailing was the shape developed for solo racing: beamy boats with the beam carried aft.

What are the advantages: Boats with a superior stability given by its huge form stability and boats that can be designed to have a good performance without heeling much and are incredible stable an easy in downwind sailing that it is much of the sailing cruisers do (upwind most just turn the engine on). The performance downwind is also better in what regards performance. They provide also for more interior space and more space on the cockpit.

The disadvantages are: More wet surface (they need more sail area to compensate, sail that they can carry because they have more stability), less pointing ability and worse performance upwind, specially with waves (more wave drag), more slamming upwind in bad weather.

Comparing advantages and disadvantages it is (and was) obvious to me that for the big majority of cruisers the advantages were much bigger than the disadvantages and that stability, sailing at good speed with a small angle of heel, interior and cockpit space are probably the things that have more importance for most cruisers.

So, Benetau that always had his boats designed by the most advanced NA (that design race boats and cruising boats) have understood this quickly and have been pointing in this direction from some years now.

One of the best boats in the Oceanis line and one that has been there more years without being replaced (because it was advanced for its time and continues to sell well) is the Oceanis 37 that was this characteristics.

Well, the new Oceanis 41 is designed exactly by the same NAs, Finot/Conq and as a kind or reward by the excellent design and market success of the 37, Benetau has done something very rare: This time they did not give them any directions regarding the boat they wanted. Just the best they can do regarding a 40ft cruising boat that would appeal to the majority of the market.

The result was the 41 (and the 45 that was also designed by them).

When I saw the first drawings I didn't like very much the shape of the boat, the arch and specially the interior that looked unappealing and regarding sailing, after having read the tests sails made to the Sense Series I was not very convinced. Not that the Sense sail badly, but for what the testers said it was a kind of sparkles performance. Yes the sailed well, but did not point high and the sailing feeling were kind of indifferent, meaning nobody is going to buy a Sense by its sailing performance or the pleasure it gives at the wheel. at least this was the feeling I got from what they have said.

The funny thing is that they have said exactly that on the boat test, I mean they were not expecting much and they have said that they where surprised by the boat. The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and by Voile magazine and on both tests they were convinced and think this is going to be a great sailboat and a big market success. The best test was the one from Voile magazine, a 100Nm test and they measured these speeds:

Close to the wind with 6K wind - 4.9K speed....with 7.5K wind - 6.6K speed

with 18/20K wind at 140º - 9.5K speed.

These is a very good performance for a cruiser and show all the expertise of Finot/Conq designing this kind of hulls. They have a huge experience in designing solo racing solo boats: Minis, Class 40 and Open60.

Voile and Voiliers on their boat test also commented on how well the boat sailed and particularly in what regards the negative characteristics of this kind of hull that were non apparent in sailing.

On both test they said that the sensation at the wheel was good and particularly on the one where they sailed 100Nm, they said that they had fun at the wheel.

They had made only a really negative remark in what regards the dificulty to put all the sail in the lazy bag and zipe it. It seems that the boom is very high. That is a problem for the ones that would not chose in mast furling. Benetau had said to them that on the next boats to come the boom was going to be lowered 20 cms to make easier to work on the mainsail.















I saw the boat on the Paris boat show and I was surprised. The boat looks a lot better than what the bad designs that I had saw make me believe and the interior is also a lot better. I guess that those photos with a dark interior don't help in what regards to feel the space. However I still think it is rather dumb from Benetau to insist in showing the boat in dark mahogany when they have other options in ligther wood that makes the boat look a lot better.

The guys from Voile and Voiliers criticized heavily the position of the mast on the boat interior (not the mast but the compression post). I don't think that way. Like on the Oceanis 37 the mast is more aft than what is usual for giving the boat a perfect balance between the front sail and the main and I find that it gives a very good holding point and is integrated on the interior decoration. Like the one on the 37 it is mirrored all around and that helps to its integration.

The boat has the less inclined steps, from the cockpit to the interior, that I ever saw in a sailboat, an incredibly good access.

The galley is huge for a 40ft, the size of the 2 fridge are remarkable (130L and 85L) and the saloon is nice and cozy with a good outside view. For charter I would say that the saloon table is small, but on a 40ft most of the time there are not more than 4 or 5 and for that number it is fine.

The head is good with a big separated shower and even if the 2 head version is chosen, the one on the front cabin is not small because the front cabin is really big. On this boat you don't need the 2 cabin version because the galley is already big enough and there is enough storage space on the outside. Quite rare on a 40ft boat, where on most boats I would chose a 2 cabin boat to have a bigger head or/and a bigger galley. No need for that on this boat and I bet that the 2 cabin version will not sell.

But the best part of this boat is the cockpit that seems to belong to a 45ft boat. It is HUGE and the extension that gives the swimming platform is incredible. A private beach

The cockpit table is huge (I guess they have considered that while cruising most cruisers are going to use this one) but because the cockpit is so large does not clutter the space and serve as an adequate support for the feet while sailing.

The quality of the interior is the one that we all know from Beneteau, perhaps a bit worse than Jeanneau or Dufour, but globally good for the price of the boat.

I bet that some of you are thinking: well he have said so nice things about the Jeanneau 409 and now he is impressed with this one! after all this one is better or worse than the Jeanneau, what would be the one he you would chose?

Well, I would chose a Salona 41 but I am quite sure that the vast majority of sailors would chose a Jeanneau 409 or an Oceanis 41. As I have said many times, all boats are compromises and my preferences are not main stream in what regards the market (and that does not make them better, just different and mine).

If I had to choose between the two I would chose the performance version of the Jeanneau 409 (much more expensive than a Oceanis 41) but that's because I don't mind to sail with more heel and I make a lot of upwind sailing, even when the sea is rough (I only stop when everybody is seasick and complaining).

One thing cannot be denied: The Oceanis offer a much bigger cockpit and an incredible swim platform. It offers also a much American huge dodger. Well I was going to write sparywood, but this one is so big that can only be a dodger It is also very rigid because the arch integrates the structure. Regarding the Arch I have to say that you don't feel its presence on the cockpit and it is certainly very resistant (on one of the tests a big guy was on top of it just for putting the sail in the bag and I could not see any flexing).

The system to regulate the main is not certainly as good as the big traveler on the jeanneau 409 but nobody was complaining on those test sails, so the system should work reasonably well.

I guess that these are just two unusually good and well designed sailboats, sailboats that would have been a dream 10 years ago and that represent the best of modern design on this category.














Movie:

http://cdn.streamlike.com/js/uc3/eve...n=361&plugin=5



EricKLYC likes this.

Last edited by PCP; 12-19-2011 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 12-18-2011
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If you Guys have not yet noticed it well deserve to pay attention to the attempt on the new World Record Navigation. They have 8 hours over Cammas, the one that owns the record but they are taking incredible risks running near 60º degrees South (58º), slalom Icebergs at 30/40K speed and Jumping on 33ft waves.

I am not exaggerating, they have beaten the speed record of the boat at 48K and the guy said the next second they were airborne over a 33ft wave

They have huge winds and big seas ahead (30h) and they talk about running without sail, only the mast!!!!! Its main problem is slow down the boat if they needed too. With 40K winds and over even only with the mast they will be doing over 20K and that can be too much for really heavy seas, not what you and I call heavy seas (on those they go over 30K) but on really bad seas, the ones where most sailors are considering a Mayday.

That is an incredible story that deserves to be followed by all that loves sail. They are out there, alot South of New Zealand sprinting to the more isolated place on earth, the big Southern Ocean on the way to the horn and they would be in deep trouble if they break the boat. Help would take a long way to arrive, maybe too long.

You can follow here:

Trophée Jules Verne 2011 - Cartographie et géolocalisation

Retrouvez toute l'actualité de l'univers Voile de Banque Populaire

I'm fascinated by this boat and this attempt. It's something truly amazing. I watch the videos of this boat doing 30+ knots effortlessly over and over and over again. This one is my favorite. See if you can tell why

Vidéo - Maxi Banque Populaire V - Jour 3 - Au reaching rencontre avec un catamaran ! - YouTube

Hats off to Loïck and his crew.
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Old 12-18-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Six or seven years ago , in another forum, on a thread about tendencies in design regarding future hull shapes of cruising boats, I said that I believed that cruising boats were gonna be more beamy and with the beam carried aft. I was so flamed that i give up to post on that forum but I was pretty sure that I was right. Now the biggest mass production boat builder has all its cruising series (Sense and Oceanis) designed that way.

The question is why? Well today's cruising boats and even more in the future are solo sailed or sailed by a couple and most of the time the help the wife gives is very limited. Given this picture it seemed obvious to me that the hull shape more indicated for short crew sailing was the shape developed for solo racing: beamy boats with the beam carried aft.

What are the advantages: Boats with a superior stability given by its huge form stability and boats that can be designed to have a good performance without heeling much and are incredible stable an easy in downwind sailing that it is much of the sailing cruisers do (upwind most just turn the engine on). The performance downwind is also better in what regards performance. They provide also for more interior space and more space on the cockpit.

The disadvantages are: More wet surface (they need more sail area to compensate, sail that they can carry because they have more stability), less pointing ability and worse performance upwind, specially with waves (more wave drag), more slamming upwind in bad weather.

Comparing advantages and disadvantages it is (and was) obvious to me that for the big majority of cruisers the advantages were much bigger than the disadvantages and that stability, sailing at good speed with a small angle of heel, interior and cockpit space are probably the things that have more importance for most cruisers.

So, Benetau that always had his boats designed by the most advanced NA (that design race boats and cruising boats) have understood this quickly and have been pointing in this direction from some years now.

One of the best boats in the Oceanis line and one that has been there more years without being replaced (because it was advanced for its time and continues to sell well) is the Oceanis 37 that was this characteristics.

Well, the new Oceanis 41 is designed exactly by the same NAs, Finot/Conq and as a kind or reward by the excellent design and market success of the 37, Benetau has done something very rare: This time they did not give them any directions regarding the boat they wanted. Just the best they can do regarding a 40ft cruising boat that would appeal to the majority of the market.

The result was the 41 (and the 45 that was also designed by them).

When I saw the first drawings I didn't like very much the shape of the boat, the arch and specially the interior that looked unappealing and regarding sailing, after having read the tests sails made to the Sense Series I was not very convinced. Not that the Sense sail badly, but for what the testers said it was a kind of sparkles performance. Yes the sailed well, but did not point high and the sailing feeling were kind of indifferent, meaning nobody is going to buy a Sense by its sailing performance or the pleasure it gives at the wheel. at least this was the feeling I got from what they have said.

The funny thing is that they have said exactly that on the boat test, I mean they were not expecting much and they have said that they where surprised by the boat. The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and by Voile magazine and on both tests they were convinced and think this is going to be a great sailboat and a big market success. The best test was the one from Voile magazine, a 100Nm test and they measured these speeds:

Close to the wind with 6K wind - 4.9K speed....with 7.5K wind - 6.6K speed

with 18/20K wind at 140º - 9.5K speed.

These is a very good performance for a cruiser and show all the expertise of Finot/Conq designing this kind of hulls. They have a huge experience in designing solo racing solo boats: Minis, Class 40 and Open60.

Voile and Voiliers on their boat test also commented on how well the boat sailed and particularly in what regards the negative characteristics of this kind of hull that were non apparent in sailing.

On both test they said that the sensation at the wheel was good and particularly on the one where they sailed 100Nm, they said that they had fun at the wheel.

They had made only a really negative remark in what regards the dificulty to put all the sail in the lazy bag and zipe it. It seems that the boom is very high. That is a problem for the ones that would not chose in mast furling. Benetau had said to them that on the next boats to come the boom was going to be lowered 20 cms to make easier to work on the mainsail.











I saw the boat on the Paris boat show and I was surprised. The boat looks a lot better than what the bad designs that I had saw make me believe and the interior is also a lot better. I guess that those photos with a dark interior don't help in what regards to feel the space. However I still think it is rather dumb from Benetau to insist in showing the boat in dark mahogany when they have other options in ligther wood that makes the boat look a lot better.

The guys from Voile and Voiliers criticized heavily the position of the mast on the boat interior (not the mast but the compression post). I don't think that way. Like on the Oceanis 37 the mast is more aft than what is usual for giving the boat a perfect balance between the front sail and the main and I find that it gives a very good holding point and is integrated on the interior decoration. Like the one on the 37 it is mirrored all around and that helps to its integration.

The boat has the less inclined steps, from the cockpit to the interior, that I ever saw in a sailboat, an incredibly good access.

The galley is huge for a 40ft, the size of the 2 fridge are remarkable (130L and 85L) and the saloon is nice and cozy with a good outside view. For charter I would say that the saloon table is small, but on a 40ft most of the time there are not more than 4 or 5 and for that number it is fine.

The head is good with a big separated shower and even if the 2 head version is chosen, the one on the front cabin is not small because the front cabin is really big. On this boat you don't need the 2 cabin version because the galley is already big enough and there is enough storage space on the outside. Quite rare on a 40ft boat, where on most boats I would chose a 2 cabin boat to have a bigger head or/and a bigger galley. No need for that on this boat and I bet that the 2 cabin version will not sell.

But the best part of this boat is the cockpit that seems to belong to a 45ft boat. It is HUGE and the extension that gives the swimming platform is incredible. A private beach

The cockpit table is huge (I guess they have considered that while cruising most cruisers are going to use this one) but because the cockpit is so large does not clutter the space and serve as an adequate support for the feet while sailing.

The quality of the interior is the one that we all know from Beneteau, perhaps a bit worse than Jeanneau or Dufour, but globally good for the price of the boat.

I bet that some of you are thinking: well he have said so nice things about the Jeanneau 409 and now he is impressed with this one! after all this one is better or worse than the Jeanneau, what would be the one he you would chose?

Well, I would chose a Salona 41 but I am quite sure that the vast majority of sailors would chose a Jeanneau 409 or an Oceanis 41. As I have said many times, all boats are compromises and my preferences are not main stream in what regards the market (and that does not make them better, just different and mine).

If I had to choose between the two I would chose the performance version of the Jeanneau 409 (much more expensive than a Oceanis 41) but that's because I don't mind to sail with more heel and I make a lot of upwind sailing, even when the sea is rough (I only stop when everybody is seasick and complaining).

One thing cannot be denied: The Oceanis offer a much bigger cockpit and an incredible swim platform. It offers also a much American huge dodger. Well I was going to write sparywood, but this one is so big that can only be a dodger It is also very rigid because the arch integrates the structure. Regarding the Arch I have to say that you don't feel its presence on the cockpit and it is certainly very resistant (on one of the tests a big guy was on top of it just for putting the sail in the bag and I could not see any flexing).

The system to regulate the main is not certainly as good as the big traveler on the jeanneau 409 but nobody was complaining on those test sails, so the system should work reasonably well.

I guess that these are just two unusually good and well designed sailboats, sailboats that would have been a dream 10 years ago and that represent the best of modern design
Thanks so much for this report. I'll be talking to my Beneteau dealer to see if we can agree numbers. Hope so!

BCC
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