I'm not convinced with centre cockpits under 40' but once over they do come into their own. For mine I don't understand why Malo didn't go CC for the 47.
I must say I do like the HR43.
One thing i don't like about Najad are those kinked settees. i like straight so you can lie down in some comfort.
Every so often a member starts a thread that takes on a life of its own and becomes a unique resource for our community. To keep these threads visible they receive a stationary position on the forum.
Such is the case with this thread and with Paulo's ongoing support of it. As a result SailNet Moderator Faster nominated this thread and asked me to confer the honor and thank Paulo for his hard work in creating this wonderful discussion.
Thank you Paulo!
I must say, I have to agree with Jeff, even though I don't always agree with Paulo....
Also thanks for the incredibly helpful information on keels - it seems that if we really want to compare stability, we need to compare RM stability charts for each boat - if only they were available on all yachts.
Yes it is the only way even if with some practice and after looking at a lot of boats keels and stability curves you start to have a good idea of what is good and bad.
It is necessary to have some caution with those stability curves because they do not result all from the same computer program and can be a bit misleading. I normally cross check that information with the one that you find on the ORC international files regarding AVS. Those numbers are all obtained the same way and so they provide meaningful comparisons and a reference board.
If you say to a dealer that you are interested in a boat but want to confirm the stability and wants to have a look at the stability curve they will get one for you. You have just to ask the right way.
Originally Posted by daviid
To my next point - More and more manufacturers seem to be putting the shrouds out on the gunwale as opposed to mounting them nearer the coach roof. I think this has been done partly due to mainsails becoming bigger, genoas becoming smaller but also no doubt to make the rig stronger and more stable. ... With the shrouds out on the gunwale, it becomes more difficult and sometimes impossible to increase the size of the genoa to beyond the 105% that it comes out with. I notice too that the Grand Soleil 39 and the Hanse 415 have also placed the shrouds here.
Surely you break even or win by having the shrouds inboard - albeit with additional re-inforcement - as this allows one to increase the size of the genoa to say 140%. It also allows you to achieve a tighter sheeting angle well sailing close hauled so it is a choice that I don't fully understand. ..
Yes, you are right. it has an advantage in the mast stability to have the shrouds out on gunwales but that would make impossible a big 140% or 150% genoa.
Also right into noting that even some cruisers (like Hanse 415) are putting the front sail travelers more inside, over the cockpit and they are also much smaller. This permits with a jib to have a very good wind angle against the wind. I guess that has to do not only with racing (where big genoas are much penalized) but also to the generalization of geenakers that have no problem with the outside shrouds and that are the sails that are used till 13K wind.
I think this concept makes a lot of sense overall... if the rig is designed around it, you end up with much more manageable headsails.. and fewer required. As far as pointing ability pretty much all of these boats sheet their non overlapping headsails inside the shrouds, and in fact now there's virtually no limit to the sheeting angle achievable. Of course how far inboard you can go depends a lot on the rest of the rig/hull/keel configuration.
But overall, on the wind you won't need a lot of pressure before you're fully powered up with the standard rig (with enough power in the mainsail, of course) and off the wind the various Code 0s and Code Ds etc on a sprit will fill the gap between beating and running that traditionally required a whopping genoa.
Yes and I guess that would suit the majority of cruisers but in what regards cruising I would prefer to have a Jib on a removable stay sail, a 140 or 150% genoa and a code D, those new type of sails that permits to run and to have a good performance since 60º.
On those boats with shrouds on the gunwales you have to go with a Jib a code 0 and have also asymmetrical spynacker.
It is arguable but I think the first solution is more flexible and less expensive and provide also a reasonable god downwind sail for medium to heavy wind (18/25k), I mean a strong genoa works well on those conditions while on the other configuration the Jib is too small and the wind is too much for the geenaker or code 0.
That should be an interesting discussion. I say this based on my experience and on the use of a strong 150% genoa ad a code 0, but I would be very interested in hearing other opinions that result from the use of different sails.
Yes, and if it develops perhaps we'll move things to it's own thread.
We have a rather severe 3/4 frac rig but a large and powerful main. We do not have shrouds outboard, but we have decided to go with just a lapper jib, an Asymm and a conventional Spinnaker.
The rig proportions mean the headsails are small and manageable, esp for a doublehanded couple. Up until last summer I did feel the lack of power upwind in the light stuff, but then we were dragging a fixed prop. Now with a refurbished Max prop we are much faster in the lower ranges - enough to ease my earlier frustrations.
We can hit hull speeds beating once we have around 8 - 10 knots apparent. Off the wind the other sails will keep us moving rather well too. There are days when I'd like a larger headsail, but to be honest around here if the destination is upwind and there's not enough breeze to make real good time, we either choose a closer destination or resort to the iron gennaker.
The small jib means we adjust power via the main, reefing as required and have yet had to resort to partially rolling the jib.. beating (arguably our jointly favourite point of sail) is easy, the tacks are zip-zip, no yards/metres of sheet to haul or grind. No sailbags to find space for other than the off wind sails.
This is, of course, a non-racing scenario and I certainly don't mean to suggest that a single headsail program is for everyone.. on those older rigs with long J and short E measurement you simply don't have the flexibility in the mainsail to cover most situations.
For us, though, it's working. We sail more often because it's easy to do so, we fly the spinnaker a lot because despite being 35 feet, the foretriangle dimensions are closer to the average 29-30 foot masthead boat, keeping things manageable.
The basic concept being advanced in today's rigs - non overlapping and/or self tacking headsails, larger, more powerful, more adjustable mainsails, and the almost standard addition of some kind of sprit or prod along with efficient A sails is appealing on a number of levels.. at least to us.
Interesting boat, not a new one but one that is becoming bigger all the time: GP26, a boat designed by an Australian, Fred Barrett, a racer that is becoming big as a designer
"Over the past decade Fred Barrett has been involved in many yacht design and building projects, including project managing the building of maxi yachts at McConaghy Boats in Sydney and shore and technical manager for the Spanish yacht Moviestar for the 2005-2006 Volvo round the world race, as well as running his own design consultancy.
His latest designs, in addition to Fang to the Max, include an 80-footer being built by McConaghy Boats for a Russian yachtsman and a GP26 nearing completion at Van Munsters in NSW.
The GP 26 is a Grand Prix “BOX RULE” racing yacht introduced and administered by the International ORC organization. This level rating rule class (similar in concept to the TP52) is designed to provide exciting close class racing (without a time allowance or handicap system), be fast, fun to sail, sound and seaworthy with considerable longevity.
ORC Special Regulations to Cat 4
Length Overall 7.9m
Maximum Beam 2.55m
Max Draft 1.9m
Max Displacement 1050kgs
Keel Weight 500kg
Max Crew Weight 340kg
Main 24.7 m2
Jib 15.35 m2
Asymmetric Spinnaker 70.49m2
The GP 26, a Design Brief by Fred Barrett:
A local Sydney yachtsman commissioned the intial design for a new class of yacht in the range of 26 feet. This was at a time when the newly formulated GP26 rule just beginning to take off, particularly in South America. It was quickly decided that the new design should reflect the GP26 rule and indeed be the first commissioned and built GP26 in Australia. ..
The design work has been extensive with a matrix of boat shapes tested and culminating in Boat "I" which we felt best represented our initial desires. The GP26 rule clearly defines the rig and sail parameters and so this is our fenced in area from which to place the best combination of hull shape, appendage and bulb configurations along with deck layout and the structural plan.
The rule requires ABS to be followed and in setting up the structure and the result is a robust, but relatively lightweight package, that given the required use of E-glass and Epoxy laminates makes for a cost effective approach. It could be argued that the use of carbon in future rule amendments could save cost, due in part to the need for less laminate weight but given the ABS rule, for this size of yacht the use of more traditional laminates will serve the rule well.
Appendage design is tricky, small is fast, bit only with speed. Big is best but comes with more drag. In this case we went for the fast option and the devil is always in the detail and how the rig combines with the side force developed by both the keel fin and rudder blade. In the same way the bulb design work looked at short and long forms.
The longer bulb chosen reflects our best combination of keel fin weight (rule constraints on keel width and construction) and bulb mass. Getting as much lead as low as possible is the key to getting the righting moment up and perhaps trading off some BWL to get the up-range performance right when heeled along with lighter air modes in general by reducing wetted area.
The cockpit is large, wide and shallow for great crew traffic throughout racing and the cabin detail reflects the best way of getting through the IMS based internal headroom and cabin plane requirements. The hard chine / angular approach to the cabin also comes in handy when setting up hardware...
The final result will be a fast, fun small yacht really a modern day approach to the quarter tonners of old and a new entry level class that is recognised by the ORC and deemed a Grand Prix class, surely a great thing to want to build and go racing in.