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  #1831  
Old 12-25-2011
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What is the difference between a VPLP cruising catamaran and a VPLP racing trimaran?

30 knots!

Or when the Atlantic Rally for Cruisers meets the Jules Verne Trophy.
From both points of view, this must have been a close encounter of the third kind... Enjoy!

"Quand un Lagoon se prend un vent" 2 : vu du Lagoon...

All the best to you all for 2012,

Eric
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Last edited by EricKLYC; 12-25-2011 at 08:59 PM.
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  #1832  
Old 12-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Andrews, they don't use them anymore:

Najad 410 Virtual Tour

Those seats were designed for chicks with back curves like this:



Just right to lay down comfortably.
Unfortunately they are quite rare these days...but they certainly deserve that bench

Regards

Paulo
Kinky ...
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  #1833  
Old 12-26-2011
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Hi Paulo and Faster

Thanks for all the info - much obliged. As a cruiser, my DNA is built around LIM - less is more - single headsail programs for a short handed sailing would not be my choice even if they give a better result in terms of sale trim and performance.

What peaked my interest was the following SA/D info pertaining to the Oceanis 37:

* SA/D - adjusted to 100% for the fore triangle so that the genoa size which can vary from 1 manufacturer to the next, does not give a distorted result - 19.4 (Jeanneau 36i Performance - 18.9);
* SA/D - as per actual size of fitted genoa which in this case is 105% - 19.8
* SA/D on a Jeanneau 36i Performance which is comparable in many ways as per actual size of fitted genoa (135% genoa) - 22.0

Despite the difference in SA/D with fitted genoa, the polar for the Oceanis 37 is still better (slightly) than the J36iP - so if one could eek out a liitle more sail area in the genoa ....

I am not familiar with a code D but from this discussion it seems that it is a sail which can be mounted on a furler which has an effective range from a close reach (60 degrees) to running? How does it differ from a code zero? My LIM sail wardrobe would be mainsail (a given), a headsail which is able to go from zero to hero as in flying a handkerchief in strong wind up to 140% for light winds and an assymetrical which can be mounted on a furling system or snuffer for easy deployment short handed. Would the code D replace the assymetrical? Can one get away without a staysail or storm jib which would need to be mounted on another forestay and which would require one to leave the cockpit in treacherous conditions?

All the best to all over the festive season- onwards and upwards

David
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  #1834  
Old 12-26-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
I am not familiar with a code D but from this discussion it seems that it is a sail which can be mounted on a furler which has an effective range from a close reach (60 degrees) to running? How does it differ from a code zero? My LIM sail wardrobe would be mainsail (a given), a headsail which is able to go from zero to hero as in flying a handkerchief in strong wind up to 140% for light winds and an assymetrical which can be mounted on a furling system or snuffer for easy deployment short handed. Would the code D replace the assymetrical? Can one get away without a staysail or storm jib which would need to be mounted on another forestay and which would require one to leave the cockpit in treacherous conditions?
It seems a code D is exactly what you want in a LIM sail wardrobe, David.
It has been conceived as a blend of an asymmetrical spinnaker and a code 0. The luff of the sail is almost as straight as a code 0, so the sail can more easily be furled. But towards the leech the sail is shaped more like a spinnaker, for better downwind performance.

Van Drop Box


The straighter luff makes the sail more forgiving for the helmsman and more straightforward to trim. And with a pole it can even be used much further downwind than an asymmetric spinnaker.

I think Paulo already posted this diagram:

Van Drop Box


No doubt a code 0 will perform better upwind and an asymmetric spinnaker will be more fun on a beam reach. But the code D looks very much like the best of two worlds and probably makes perfect sense when you want to reduce the number of sails -and the costs- especially with the focus on easy handling.
By the way, on the Océanis 37 such a sail might also be a good answer to your question about a bigger foretriangle since the 105% jib does very well upwind, except in very light airs.

I fully agree with Faster’s analysis about shrouds on the toerail. If the sailplan is adapted -powerful main, non or little overlapping jib, code sail(s)- it has many advantages.
The loads are transferred directly to the deck-hull-bulkhead joint, which is stronger and much cheaper than inboard designs with pullbars intruding the interior.
The rig is also better sustained laterally, with less tension on the shrouds and compression on the mast. Within the same safety margin mast and rig can therefore be made to lesser dimensions, which is again cheaper. And also lighter, which is very important for performance because every extra pound high up in the rig needs to be compensated by many more pounds down in the keel.
In my honest opinion, the only real drawback is the obstructive lower diagonal when you need to go to the foredeck.

With such a sailplan, I think there is no need any more for large, overlapping genoa. They give you a very hard job when tacking and are much less efficient on a modern, fractioned rig.
Any foresail gets more baggy with every turn on the furling drum, which is exactly what you do not want when the wind builds up. The bigger the sail, the baggier it gets, with less pointing and more heel as a result. The more you furl, the higher the sail comes with even more heel.
So there is no way to make a from zero to hero genoa. If you want the sail to fly in light winds, you need light sailcloth. It will not resist furling and certainly not in strong winds.

With a powerful mainsail and a non overlapping jib reefing the main is the first move, even the second. Afterwards I prefer not to furl the jib but just get rid of it by rolling it away at once and rig a staysail.
This means working on the foredeck, but if bad weather can be foreseen -which is mostly the case- most of the work can be done beforehand and the sail will only need to be released from its bag or lashings.
Then you get a foresail with a custom design for strong winds, flat shape and heavy cloth. It also brings the center of the sailplan down and backwards, which is exactly what you want in heavy conditions. It can also be fitted with a reef, certainly a hard job to take in when it gets that bad, but at that time any furling headsail would be of no use at all.

So in my honest opinion, LIM with a big mainsail means a jib, a code D and a staysail for security.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #1835  
Old 12-27-2011
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Hi Eric

Great explanation - thank you very much - merci mille fois !!

All the best

David
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  #1836  
Old 12-27-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
.....
With such a sailplan, I think there is no need any more for large, overlapping genoa. They give you a very hard job when tacking and are much less efficient on a modern, fractioned rig.
Any foresail gets more baggy with every turn on the furling drum, which is exactly what you do not want when the wind builds up. The bigger the sail, the baggier it gets, with less pointing and more heel as a result. The more you furl, the higher the sail comes with even more heel.
So there is no way to make a from zero to hero genoa. If you want the sail to fly in light winds, you need light sailcloth. It will not resist furling and certainly not in strong winds.

With a powerful mainsail and a non overlapping jib reefing the main is the first move, even the second. Afterwards I prefer not to furl the jib but just get rid of it by rolling it away at once and rig a staysail.
This means working on the foredeck, but if bad weather can be foreseen -which is mostly the case- most of the work can be done beforehand and the sail will only need to be released from its bag or lashings.
Then you get a foresail with a custom design for strong winds, flat shape and heavy cloth. It also brings the center of the sailplan down and backwards, which is exactly what you want in heavy conditions. It can also be fitted with a reef, certainly a hard job to take in when it gets that bad, but at that time any furling headsail would be of no use at all.

So in my honest opinion, LIM with a big mainsail means a jib, a code D and a staysail for security.

Best regards,

Eric
Great post, but I am not convinced about the best choice of sails.

Of course it will depend on the boat and on the size of the main but assuming a light boat with an average sized main, perhaps that's the better solution If you have a code 0 and an asymmetric spinnaker.

With a single downwind sail, like a code D you can only use it to go upwind at a little more than 60º. In light winds you would not have the power to sail at decent speeds against the wind.

With a 140 or 150% genoa you have already plenty power and can sail at a decent speed with 5K true wind. Depending on the boat that genoa allows you to maintain full sail till around 16/18K apparent wind and probably you can keep it with a reef on the main and slightly furled (that has not a great influence on sail shape) till 20/22 apparent wind and over that you can put the stay sail, shake the reef on the main and have power again.

A small head sail would not have problem sailing upwind with 9 or 10K true wind at almost hull speed but that's if you don't get 3 m waves or those nasty short smaller med waves that can stop you if you don't have lot's of power and here comes the big genoa again: power

The genoa is also useful for going downwind over 16K. Those big and light sails like the code D are designed to sail with light wind and they cannot take winds over 15/16K. If you go with 16K downwind with a small front sail you don't go fast and a main is a bad sail to go downwind with medium to strong winds: it is difficult to reef on those conditions and unbalances the boat a lot more than a front sail, that is far more simple to roll.

I remember a full night going downwind with 19/24K apparent wind making 9/10K speed with a full genoa, and later a slightly rolled genoa with the main with one and later two reefs, with the boat perfectly balanced. With a small head sail I would not have half the fun neither a decent speed.

That was with the Bavaria 36, with a Salona 38 that would be probably 11 to 14K speed, providing you have a sail that can handle that wind and has enough sail area.

I know, a small asymetric spinaker would be ideal, but that is one more sail

Regards

Paulo

PS. I am not replying soon, catching an airplane to Rome

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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  #1837  
Old 12-28-2011
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Hi, I agree with you Paulo. A furling overlapping genoa is a much more versatile sail compared to a small jib. Even though a selftacker really makes life easy when shorthanded(family) cruising. I would maybe compromise and choose 120-130%.

Although I like the LIM philosophy i think the properties of code 0 and asym spi is difficult to combine in a good way. Using a Code D with a furler you would have a hard time using it with the spinnaker boom for the highest angles, useful in narrow waters.

Also I do not mind changing sails in lighter winds. Actually I find it makes sailing even more fun.

BTW great thread, and congrats with Salona 38. I totally understand choosing that boat.
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  #1838  
Old 12-29-2011
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We will certainly have a code 0 + an asymmetric spinnaker, for more range and better speed. You know, dinghy sailors...
But I still think the code D can be a good compromise if one does not want to carry (and/or invest in) both sails. I also enjoy sail changes as a part of sailing fun, but I’m sure many other cruisers find it cumbersome and will be glad to trade some performance for more versatility.
And when it comes down to costs, a code 0 + a furler and a spinnaker + a snuffer or a high-tech furler will of course be much more expensive than a single code D + furler.

Concerning genoa’s versus non overlapping jibs, it will probably very much depend on the basic design of the rig and thus the sailplan.

Both headsails are less efficient on a fractional rig, especially upwind, because they take lesser profit from the upwash of the main. Mast top rigs now seem old fashioned, but in this concept the small, tall main (short boom, high aspect ratio) gives little power but creates upwash along the full lufflength of the genoa, which provides most of the power. This is one of the many reasons why IOR designs perform well upwind.
This configuration has been given up in modern designs, racers following rules when the IOR rating disappeared. And for cruisers because reducing sail meant frequently changing the headsail.

Then came the fractioned rigs, allowing to tune the mast rake -and trim the shape of the main- much more efficiently. And roller reefing systems, which do not work well with big genoa’s.
Mainsails are now much larger, generating more power and much better to trim to very different shapes. Subsequently foresails become smaller, less powerful but also better manageable when tacking and easier to reef with a roller.

I think Paulo’s example of the Bavaria 36, a very successful design, might illustrate the latest stages of this evolution.
Already a fractioned rig but still with a genoa (36 m2) significantly larger than the main (30 m2). Shrouds are built inwards to allow a correct sheeting angle of the genoa upwind.

In the sailplan of the latest version of the 36 the mast has moved forward, with a longer boom, bigger main (42 m2) with a lower aspect ratio and smaller jib (27 m2).
Shrouds are now fitted on the toerail which prohibits headsails overlapping more than 5 to 10 %.

The total sail area has grown a little from 66 to 69 m2. The displacement much more so the sailplan by itself cannot explain differences in performances, but it seems Paulo’s 36 must be quite faster than the latest version because of an much better S/D ratio.

But the issue in this discussion is that the main has grown from 45% to 61% of the total upwind sail area. The headsail shrinked from 55% to 39%.
The mainsail is now privileged for power, the question is whether this will impair performance upwind, even against a heavy sea. My personal feeling is that this would not be the case with a fractioned rig, because it pays less to favor the headsail for power.

Downwind is a very different matter. A big main will very soon screen off a smaller jib, which becomes mostly useless when sailing lower than a beam reach.
For some time an genoa behind a smaller main will perform better, certainly if a sufficiently long track rail is fitted to control the sheeting angle. But at some point the genoa will need a pole, which can also be used with a code D.
Dead downwind, nothing beats a symmetric spinnaker. But I think this is way off David’s LIM concept.

In conclusion, don’t you think a modern design with the shrouds on the toerail, a forward placed fractioned rig, a big main for power and a small headsail for handling, a code D for fun and a staysail (+ a deep third reef in the main) for security can work very well for cruising in most conditions?

Best regards,

Eric
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  #1839  
Old 12-31-2011
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I'm not sure, if this boat has been posted yet...?
Gunfleet 43, was exhibited at the Southhampton Boatshow, a new venture for Richard Mathews (founder of Oyster Yachts), and designed by Tony Castro.
I find the design quite innovative, and not a repetition of features on other "new" designs, from the deck layout, helm (why hasn't anyone else thought of this?), and interior design. Also notable are the many opening portholes and hatches for good ventilation below, which so many new designs lack. Sail handling looks like the boat would be easy to single hand as well.
The Mathews/ Castro combo should also assure good sailing performance, can't wait for a review.....
13m Gunfleet 43 | Tony Castro Yacht Design
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  #1840  
Old 01-02-2012
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What about Jongerts
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