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post #1831 of 6763 Old 12-26-2011
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Hi Paulo and Faster

Thanks for all the info - much obliged. As a cruiser, my DNA is built around LIM - less is more - single headsail programs for a short handed sailing would not be my choice even if they give a better result in terms of sale trim and performance.

What peaked my interest was the following SA/D info pertaining to the Oceanis 37:

* SA/D - adjusted to 100% for the fore triangle so that the genoa size which can vary from 1 manufacturer to the next, does not give a distorted result - 19.4 (Jeanneau 36i Performance - 18.9);
* SA/D - as per actual size of fitted genoa which in this case is 105% - 19.8
* SA/D on a Jeanneau 36i Performance which is comparable in many ways as per actual size of fitted genoa (135% genoa) - 22.0

Despite the difference in SA/D with fitted genoa, the polar for the Oceanis 37 is still better (slightly) than the J36iP - so if one could eek out a liitle more sail area in the genoa ....

I am not familiar with a code D but from this discussion it seems that it is a sail which can be mounted on a furler which has an effective range from a close reach (60 degrees) to running? How does it differ from a code zero? My LIM sail wardrobe would be mainsail (a given), a headsail which is able to go from zero to hero as in flying a handkerchief in strong wind up to 140% for light winds and an assymetrical which can be mounted on a furling system or snuffer for easy deployment short handed. Would the code D replace the assymetrical? Can one get away without a staysail or storm jib which would need to be mounted on another forestay and which would require one to leave the cockpit in treacherous conditions?

All the best to all over the festive season- onwards and upwards

David
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post #1832 of 6763 Old 12-26-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
I am not familiar with a code D but from this discussion it seems that it is a sail which can be mounted on a furler which has an effective range from a close reach (60 degrees) to running? How does it differ from a code zero? My LIM sail wardrobe would be mainsail (a given), a headsail which is able to go from zero to hero as in flying a handkerchief in strong wind up to 140% for light winds and an assymetrical which can be mounted on a furling system or snuffer for easy deployment short handed. Would the code D replace the assymetrical? Can one get away without a staysail or storm jib which would need to be mounted on another forestay and which would require one to leave the cockpit in treacherous conditions?
It seems a code D is exactly what you want in a LIM sail wardrobe, David.
It has been conceived as a blend of an asymmetrical spinnaker and a code 0. The luff of the sail is almost as straight as a code 0, so the sail can more easily be furled. But towards the leech the sail is shaped more like a spinnaker, for better downwind performance.

Van Drop Box


The straighter luff makes the sail more forgiving for the helmsman and more straightforward to trim. And with a pole it can even be used much further downwind than an asymmetric spinnaker.

I think Paulo already posted this diagram:

Van Drop Box


No doubt a code 0 will perform better upwind and an asymmetric spinnaker will be more fun on a beam reach. But the code D looks very much like the best of two worlds and probably makes perfect sense when you want to reduce the number of sails -and the costs- especially with the focus on easy handling.
By the way, on the Océanis 37 such a sail might also be a good answer to your question about a bigger foretriangle since the 105% jib does very well upwind, except in very light airs.

I fully agree with Faster’s analysis about shrouds on the toerail. If the sailplan is adapted -powerful main, non or little overlapping jib, code sail(s)- it has many advantages.
The loads are transferred directly to the deck-hull-bulkhead joint, which is stronger and much cheaper than inboard designs with pullbars intruding the interior.
The rig is also better sustained laterally, with less tension on the shrouds and compression on the mast. Within the same safety margin mast and rig can therefore be made to lesser dimensions, which is again cheaper. And also lighter, which is very important for performance because every extra pound high up in the rig needs to be compensated by many more pounds down in the keel.
In my honest opinion, the only real drawback is the obstructive lower diagonal when you need to go to the foredeck.

With such a sailplan, I think there is no need any more for large, overlapping genoa. They give you a very hard job when tacking and are much less efficient on a modern, fractioned rig.
Any foresail gets more baggy with every turn on the furling drum, which is exactly what you do not want when the wind builds up. The bigger the sail, the baggier it gets, with less pointing and more heel as a result. The more you furl, the higher the sail comes with even more heel.
So there is no way to make a from zero to hero genoa. If you want the sail to fly in light winds, you need light sailcloth. It will not resist furling and certainly not in strong winds.

With a powerful mainsail and a non overlapping jib reefing the main is the first move, even the second. Afterwards I prefer not to furl the jib but just get rid of it by rolling it away at once and rig a staysail.
This means working on the foredeck, but if bad weather can be foreseen -which is mostly the case- most of the work can be done beforehand and the sail will only need to be released from its bag or lashings.
Then you get a foresail with a custom design for strong winds, flat shape and heavy cloth. It also brings the center of the sailplan down and backwards, which is exactly what you want in heavy conditions. It can also be fitted with a reef, certainly a hard job to take in when it gets that bad, but at that time any furling headsail would be of no use at all.

So in my honest opinion, LIM with a big mainsail means a jib, a code D and a staysail for security.

Best regards,

Eric
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post #1833 of 6763 Old 12-27-2011
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Hi Eric

Great explanation - thank you very much - merci mille fois !!

All the best

David
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post #1834 of 6763 Old 12-27-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
.....
With such a sailplan, I think there is no need any more for large, overlapping genoa. They give you a very hard job when tacking and are much less efficient on a modern, fractioned rig.
Any foresail gets more baggy with every turn on the furling drum, which is exactly what you do not want when the wind builds up. The bigger the sail, the baggier it gets, with less pointing and more heel as a result. The more you furl, the higher the sail comes with even more heel.
So there is no way to make a from zero to hero genoa. If you want the sail to fly in light winds, you need light sailcloth. It will not resist furling and certainly not in strong winds.

With a powerful mainsail and a non overlapping jib reefing the main is the first move, even the second. Afterwards I prefer not to furl the jib but just get rid of it by rolling it away at once and rig a staysail.
This means working on the foredeck, but if bad weather can be foreseen -which is mostly the case- most of the work can be done beforehand and the sail will only need to be released from its bag or lashings.
Then you get a foresail with a custom design for strong winds, flat shape and heavy cloth. It also brings the center of the sailplan down and backwards, which is exactly what you want in heavy conditions. It can also be fitted with a reef, certainly a hard job to take in when it gets that bad, but at that time any furling headsail would be of no use at all.

So in my honest opinion, LIM with a big mainsail means a jib, a code D and a staysail for security.

Best regards,

Eric
Great post, but I am not convinced about the best choice of sails.

Of course it will depend on the boat and on the size of the main but assuming a light boat with an average sized main, perhaps that's the better solution If you have a code 0 and an asymmetric spinnaker.

With a single downwind sail, like a code D you can only use it to go upwind at a little more than 60º. In light winds you would not have the power to sail at decent speeds against the wind.

With a 140 or 150% genoa you have already plenty power and can sail at a decent speed with 5K true wind. Depending on the boat that genoa allows you to maintain full sail till around 16/18K apparent wind and probably you can keep it with a reef on the main and slightly furled (that has not a great influence on sail shape) till 20/22 apparent wind and over that you can put the stay sail, shake the reef on the main and have power again.

A small head sail would not have problem sailing upwind with 9 or 10K true wind at almost hull speed but that's if you don't get 3 m waves or those nasty short smaller med waves that can stop you if you don't have lot's of power and here comes the big genoa again: power

The genoa is also useful for going downwind over 16K. Those big and light sails like the code D are designed to sail with light wind and they cannot take winds over 15/16K. If you go with 16K downwind with a small front sail you don't go fast and a main is a bad sail to go downwind with medium to strong winds: it is difficult to reef on those conditions and unbalances the boat a lot more than a front sail, that is far more simple to roll.

I remember a full night going downwind with 19/24K apparent wind making 9/10K speed with a full genoa, and later a slightly rolled genoa with the main with one and later two reefs, with the boat perfectly balanced. With a small head sail I would not have half the fun neither a decent speed.

That was with the Bavaria 36, with a Salona 38 that would be probably 11 to 14K speed, providing you have a sail that can handle that wind and has enough sail area.

I know, a small asymetric spinaker would be ideal, but that is one more sail

Regards

Paulo

PS. I am not replying soon, catching an airplane to Rome

Last edited by PCP; 12-27-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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post #1835 of 6763 Old 12-28-2011
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Hi, I agree with you Paulo. A furling overlapping genoa is a much more versatile sail compared to a small jib. Even though a selftacker really makes life easy when shorthanded(family) cruising. I would maybe compromise and choose 120-130%.

Although I like the LIM philosophy i think the properties of code 0 and asym spi is difficult to combine in a good way. Using a Code D with a furler you would have a hard time using it with the spinnaker boom for the highest angles, useful in narrow waters.

Also I do not mind changing sails in lighter winds. Actually I find it makes sailing even more fun.

BTW great thread, and congrats with Salona 38. I totally understand choosing that boat.
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post #1836 of 6763 Old 12-29-2011
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We will certainly have a code 0 + an asymmetric spinnaker, for more range and better speed. You know, dinghy sailors...
But I still think the code D can be a good compromise if one does not want to carry (and/or invest in) both sails. I also enjoy sail changes as a part of sailing fun, but I’m sure many other cruisers find it cumbersome and will be glad to trade some performance for more versatility.
And when it comes down to costs, a code 0 + a furler and a spinnaker + a snuffer or a high-tech furler will of course be much more expensive than a single code D + furler.

Concerning genoa’s versus non overlapping jibs, it will probably very much depend on the basic design of the rig and thus the sailplan.

Both headsails are less efficient on a fractional rig, especially upwind, because they take lesser profit from the upwash of the main. Mast top rigs now seem old fashioned, but in this concept the small, tall main (short boom, high aspect ratio) gives little power but creates upwash along the full lufflength of the genoa, which provides most of the power. This is one of the many reasons why IOR designs perform well upwind.
This configuration has been given up in modern designs, racers following rules when the IOR rating disappeared. And for cruisers because reducing sail meant frequently changing the headsail.

Then came the fractioned rigs, allowing to tune the mast rake -and trim the shape of the main- much more efficiently. And roller reefing systems, which do not work well with big genoa’s.
Mainsails are now much larger, generating more power and much better to trim to very different shapes. Subsequently foresails become smaller, less powerful but also better manageable when tacking and easier to reef with a roller.

I think Paulo’s example of the Bavaria 36, a very successful design, might illustrate the latest stages of this evolution.
Already a fractioned rig but still with a genoa (36 m2) significantly larger than the main (30 m2). Shrouds are built inwards to allow a correct sheeting angle of the genoa upwind.

In the sailplan of the latest version of the 36 the mast has moved forward, with a longer boom, bigger main (42 m2) with a lower aspect ratio and smaller jib (27 m2).
Shrouds are now fitted on the toerail which prohibits headsails overlapping more than 5 to 10 %.

The total sail area has grown a little from 66 to 69 m2. The displacement much more so the sailplan by itself cannot explain differences in performances, but it seems Paulo’s 36 must be quite faster than the latest version because of an much better S/D ratio.

But the issue in this discussion is that the main has grown from 45% to 61% of the total upwind sail area. The headsail shrinked from 55% to 39%.
The mainsail is now privileged for power, the question is whether this will impair performance upwind, even against a heavy sea. My personal feeling is that this would not be the case with a fractioned rig, because it pays less to favor the headsail for power.

Downwind is a very different matter. A big main will very soon screen off a smaller jib, which becomes mostly useless when sailing lower than a beam reach.
For some time an genoa behind a smaller main will perform better, certainly if a sufficiently long track rail is fitted to control the sheeting angle. But at some point the genoa will need a pole, which can also be used with a code D.
Dead downwind, nothing beats a symmetric spinnaker. But I think this is way off David’s LIM concept.

In conclusion, don’t you think a modern design with the shrouds on the toerail, a forward placed fractioned rig, a big main for power and a small headsail for handling, a code D for fun and a staysail (+ a deep third reef in the main) for security can work very well for cruising in most conditions?

Best regards,

Eric
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post #1837 of 6763 Old 12-31-2011
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I'm not sure, if this boat has been posted yet...?
Gunfleet 43, was exhibited at the Southhampton Boatshow, a new venture for Richard Mathews (founder of Oyster Yachts), and designed by Tony Castro.
I find the design quite innovative, and not a repetition of features on other "new" designs, from the deck layout, helm (why hasn't anyone else thought of this?), and interior design. Also notable are the many opening portholes and hatches for good ventilation below, which so many new designs lack. Sail handling looks like the boat would be easy to single hand as well.
The Mathews/ Castro combo should also assure good sailing performance, can't wait for a review.....
13m Gunfleet 43 | Tony Castro Yacht Design
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post #1838 of 6763 Old 01-02-2012
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What about Jongerts
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post #1839 of 6763 Old 01-03-2012 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
....

Concerning genoa’s versus non overlapping jibs, it will probably very much depend on the basic design of the rig and thus the sailplan.

Both headsails are less efficient on a fractional rig, especially upwind, because they take lesser profit from the upwash of the main. Mast top rigs now seem old fashioned, but in this concept the small, tall main (short boom, high aspect ratio) gives little power but creates upwash along the full lufflength of the genoa, which provides most of the power. This is one of the many reasons why IOR designs perform well upwind.
This configuration has been given up in modern designs, racers following rules when the IOR rating disappeared. And for cruisers because reducing sail meant frequently changing the headsail.

Then came the fractioned rigs, allowing to tune the mast rake -and trim the shape of the main- much more efficiently. And roller reefing systems, which do not work well with big genoa’s.
Mainsails are now much larger, generating more power and much better to trim to very different shapes. Subsequently foresails become smaller, less powerful but also better manageable when tacking and easier to reef with a roller.

I think Paulo’s example of the Bavaria 36, a very successful design, might illustrate the latest stages of this evolution.
Already a fractioned rig but still with a genoa (36 m2) significantly larger than the main (30 m2). Shrouds are built inwards to allow a correct sheeting angle of the genoa upwind.

In the sailplan of the latest version of the 36 the mast has moved forward, with a longer boom, bigger main (42 m2) with a lower aspect ratio and smaller jib (27 m2).
Shrouds are now fitted on the toerail which prohibits headsails overlapping more than 5 to 10 %.

The total sail area has grown a little from 66 to 69 m2. The displacement much more so the sailplan by itself cannot explain differences in performances, but it seems Paulo’s 36 must be quite faster than the latest version because of an much better S/D ratio.

But the issue in this discussion is that the main has grown from 45% to 61% of the total upwind sail area. The headsail shrinked from 55% to 39%.
The mainsail is now privileged for power, the question is whether this will impair performance upwind, even against a heavy sea. My personal feeling is that this would not be the case with a fractioned rig, because it pays less to favor the headsail for power.

Downwind is a very different matter. A big main will very soon screen off a smaller jib, which becomes mostly useless when sailing lower than a beam reach.

For some time an genoa behind a smaller main will perform better, certainly if a sufficiently long track rail is fitted to control the sheeting angle. But at some point the genoa will need a pole, which can also be used with a code D.
Dead downwind, nothing beats a symmetric spinnaker. But I think this is way off David’s LIM concept.

In conclusion, don’t you think a modern design with the shrouds on the toerail, a forward placed fractioned rig, a big main for power and a small headsail for handling, a code D for fun and a staysail (+ a deep third reef in the main) for security can work very well for cruising in most conditions?

Best regards,

Eric
Hei Eric, great post!

That analyses of the evolution of the rig and main sail versus front sail is very good and in my opinion accurate but that is a very recent tendency that was started by Hanse some years ago when they come with self-taking small jibs and huge mainsails (for the time).

It seems that they got it right and everybody is following. As I have said, for most, in what regards mainstream cruising, I think it is a better solution: more manageable front sail and an easy reefing mainsail, now that almost all main market cruising boats come with a furling mainsail.

But of course this only applies to very recent boats that were designed to have a big main and a smaller front sail.

But if we look at performance cruisers, that many times are also used fort club racing or are de-tuned versions of boats more used for racing than for cruising I think the tendency has also much to do with the bad handicap a big genoa has today under most rules. Regarding using such a rig mainly for performance cruising, and off course on these cases you have a non-furling main, another problem arises: Automatic furling (only one 1 line to pull the reef in) only permits two reefs on the main and almost all boats come standard with only two reefs on the main and that is not enough for safety on a big main.

Of course you can mount a two line small third reef to really bad weather and you should but the fact is that most boats come without one.

But I was assuming a small choice of sails (4) that is what most cruisers have, when do they not have only two and that is about that situation I am talking about regarding what is the more flexible choice, a big genoa or a noon overlaping front sail.

The 4 sails I am talking about are these: a small front storm sail, a non overlapping front sail or a 135/150%) and a downwind/upwind bigger sail for light wind.

As you have said regarding the configuration of your boat, if instead of a single sail for light wind you have two as you say, a code 0 for upwind sailing and an asymmetric spinaker for downwind sailing, that configuration could be more versatile but you have already one more big expensive sail. And I would say that you need another one, a smaller asymmetric spinnaker for strong downwind sailing that is where you would have more fun with your boat

That big asymmetric spinnaker for light winds is to be used till 16K winds and you can risk it till 18/20k winds but with more than that is of no use.

As your small jib has not enough power for a decent speed (and to have fun downwind) you would have to use a relatively big area of the main and that is a bad idea downwind. A strong genoa would have been a much better option and for strong I don't mean the dracon sails that come standard with the boat but the options that almost all brands have for more performant and stronger sails (sandwich pentex sails or mylar sails).

If the wind picks up, at 35K or more, alone or with your wife, you would have trouble to de-power the main and to bring it down. With the huge wind force on the sail it would not come down from the last reef unless you have rigged a line on top of the sail to do just that (almost nobody has it and it would not be easy anyway) and you will find that with a small jib and a too much main sail area out, the boat will be very hard to turn to the wind to take the main down, even with the engine at full power.

I had experienced some troubles with that and even if I was not in danger it was probably one of the two situations were I felt not very confortable with the handling of my boat:

I had come out of Morocco with a Force 7 warning but as I would have it downwind I sailed away, for crossing the Gibraltar strait heading to Portugal.

I has having fun with 25/35K wind with a 3 reefed main and a partially furled genoa on a bumpy sea when, near the Spanish coast, that Force 7 upgraded for a Force 9/10 with winds of about 50K or more (I confess that looking at the wind force was the last of my concerns).

That was not gradual but come just in some seconds and without warning. The sea state become nasty, kind of Colorado river if you know what I mean, the boat had too much main and I was not able to maintain the course downwind, the boat turning to the wind, and of course, I could not pull the boom in and complete the turn because with that wind I was afraid to capsize the boat.

With that sea state I was afraid to let the boat on autopilot and go forward to pull the sail down (remember that the boat was turning on the wind and was unable to maintain course and that the spreaders made impossible to de-power the main). Finally at the third or 4th attempt with the engine full on and pulling the boom in as much as I dared and deeply heeled I managed to complete that turn and put the boat against the wind to take down the main.

After that, with the main rolled to the size of a small towel I was able to purse in complete safety doing 9K downwind and having fun in that very agitated sea, with lots of power and complete control.

This talked a lesson to me: Never to be caught in strong winds with the main on and as a preventing measure, if sailing alone, over 25/30K to sail downwind only with a genoa, instead of a main and genoa.

Later I talked with some friends that are experienced solo sailors and all have passed by this situation and knew precisely what I mean and I guess that they had got their lesson too

This problem is just a bigger problem if you have only a small jib that would not give you the power to sail fast downwind with 25/30K without the main and you would have to use it also, so you cannot avoid this unless you have a small dedicated spinnaker to go downwind..

I guess that I am not going to be caught again in a situation like the one I have described, at least in a boat that was a 135% genoa because with that sail I can go downwind fast with a 25K wind, but with a non overlapping small sail I would not have enough front sail and I would have to use the mainsail, so I cannot avoid it unless I have a dedicated strong wind small asymmetric spinnaker.

That would make 6 sails against 4, I mean:

1 - dedicated storm jib, 2 - non overlapping front sail, 3 - mainsail, 4 - asymmetric spinnaker, 5 - code 0 and 6 - small asymmetric spinnaker for winds over 20K.

Against: 1 - dedicated storm jib, 2 - 135% or 150% genoa, 3 - mainsail and 4-Code D.

With the last configuration the need of a third reef would also be smaller.

Of course you will sail faster with the 6 sails, the 4 are only a compromise that will not give the same performance but if you are only going to have 4 sails on board the second choice is much more flexible and even more easy for short sailing.

Remember you have to go out of the cockpit to rig that asymmetric spinnaker for strong winds with 20/25K and the sea is not always nice with that wind.

On the other option the genoa is already in place and you will only need to furl and unfurl it from the cockpit. You will only need to go forward for mounting the storm sail if things really turn out really nasty.

Hey guys, remember I am talking only in what regards performance sailing.

With 25K winds Eric's boat will go probably over 8K downwind even with only that small non overlapping head-sail but I guess that he don't want to see me passing him downwind with a big genoa and doing 10K. So he has to put the turbo on and rig a proper asymmetric spinnaker, one that can take 25 to 35K wind and go away doing over 14K, or it has to sail with the main and the small front sail and it will be exposed to a sudden rise of wind force.

Not a problem if you have a crew and not a very frequent situation but one that will eventually happen if you sail enough time and are not afraid of winds over 25K.

Of course, in what regards mainstream cruisers the modern tendency of the smaller front sail and bigger main makes all the sense, specially with furling mainsails and that's why practically all modern cruisers have gone that way.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-03-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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post #1840 of 6763 Old 01-03-2012 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldcruiser View Post
What about Jongerts
They are great and strong boats built in aluminium. They only make big boats, over 60ft and they are selling much more motor yachts than sailing yachts.

I find they have a superstructure unnecessarily high and I don't like their traditional models, I mean the design and the sailing, not the quality

But I like some, particularly this 100ft, a Tony de Castro 2002 design:





They are proposing a 90ft nice Frers design (not any built) that is not far in design from what is offered already from several other shipyards that have made already several boats, like Shipman (even if those are Carbon boats):







What they are selling is this:

- Jongert Luxury Super Yachts

And I guess it will be their future.

Regards

Paulo

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