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  #1841  
Old 01-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
....

Concerning genoa’s versus non overlapping jibs, it will probably very much depend on the basic design of the rig and thus the sailplan.

Both headsails are less efficient on a fractional rig, especially upwind, because they take lesser profit from the upwash of the main. Mast top rigs now seem old fashioned, but in this concept the small, tall main (short boom, high aspect ratio) gives little power but creates upwash along the full lufflength of the genoa, which provides most of the power. This is one of the many reasons why IOR designs perform well upwind.
This configuration has been given up in modern designs, racers following rules when the IOR rating disappeared. And for cruisers because reducing sail meant frequently changing the headsail.

Then came the fractioned rigs, allowing to tune the mast rake -and trim the shape of the main- much more efficiently. And roller reefing systems, which do not work well with big genoa’s.
Mainsails are now much larger, generating more power and much better to trim to very different shapes. Subsequently foresails become smaller, less powerful but also better manageable when tacking and easier to reef with a roller.

I think Paulo’s example of the Bavaria 36, a very successful design, might illustrate the latest stages of this evolution.
Already a fractioned rig but still with a genoa (36 m2) significantly larger than the main (30 m2). Shrouds are built inwards to allow a correct sheeting angle of the genoa upwind.

In the sailplan of the latest version of the 36 the mast has moved forward, with a longer boom, bigger main (42 m2) with a lower aspect ratio and smaller jib (27 m2).
Shrouds are now fitted on the toerail which prohibits headsails overlapping more than 5 to 10 %.

The total sail area has grown a little from 66 to 69 m2. The displacement much more so the sailplan by itself cannot explain differences in performances, but it seems Paulo’s 36 must be quite faster than the latest version because of an much better S/D ratio.

But the issue in this discussion is that the main has grown from 45% to 61% of the total upwind sail area. The headsail shrinked from 55% to 39%.
The mainsail is now privileged for power, the question is whether this will impair performance upwind, even against a heavy sea. My personal feeling is that this would not be the case with a fractioned rig, because it pays less to favor the headsail for power.

Downwind is a very different matter. A big main will very soon screen off a smaller jib, which becomes mostly useless when sailing lower than a beam reach.

For some time an genoa behind a smaller main will perform better, certainly if a sufficiently long track rail is fitted to control the sheeting angle. But at some point the genoa will need a pole, which can also be used with a code D.
Dead downwind, nothing beats a symmetric spinnaker. But I think this is way off David’s LIM concept.

In conclusion, don’t you think a modern design with the shrouds on the toerail, a forward placed fractioned rig, a big main for power and a small headsail for handling, a code D for fun and a staysail (+ a deep third reef in the main) for security can work very well for cruising in most conditions?

Best regards,

Eric
Hei Eric, great post!

That analyses of the evolution of the rig and main sail versus front sail is very good and in my opinion accurate but that is a very recent tendency that was started by Hanse some years ago when they come with self-taking small jibs and huge mainsails (for the time).

It seems that they got it right and everybody is following. As I have said, for most, in what regards mainstream cruising, I think it is a better solution: more manageable front sail and an easy reefing mainsail, now that almost all main market cruising boats come with a furling mainsail.

But of course this only applies to very recent boats that were designed to have a big main and a smaller front sail.

But if we look at performance cruisers, that many times are also used fort club racing or are de-tuned versions of boats more used for racing than for cruising I think the tendency has also much to do with the bad handicap a big genoa has today under most rules. Regarding using such a rig mainly for performance cruising, and off course on these cases you have a non-furling main, another problem arises: Automatic furling (only one 1 line to pull the reef in) only permits two reefs on the main and almost all boats come standard with only two reefs on the main and that is not enough for safety on a big main.

Of course you can mount a two line small third reef to really bad weather and you should but the fact is that most boats come without one.

But I was assuming a small choice of sails (4) that is what most cruisers have, when do they not have only two and that is about that situation I am talking about regarding what is the more flexible choice, a big genoa or a noon overlaping front sail.

The 4 sails I am talking about are these: a small front storm sail, a non overlapping front sail or a 135/150%) and a downwind/upwind bigger sail for light wind.

As you have said regarding the configuration of your boat, if instead of a single sail for light wind you have two as you say, a code 0 for upwind sailing and an asymmetric spinaker for downwind sailing, that configuration could be more versatile but you have already one more big expensive sail. And I would say that you need another one, a smaller asymmetric spinnaker for strong downwind sailing that is where you would have more fun with your boat

That big asymmetric spinnaker for light winds is to be used till 16K winds and you can risk it till 18/20k winds but with more than that is of no use.

As your small jib has not enough power for a decent speed (and to have fun downwind) you would have to use a relatively big area of the main and that is a bad idea downwind. A strong genoa would have been a much better option and for strong I don't mean the dracon sails that come standard with the boat but the options that almost all brands have for more performant and stronger sails (sandwich pentex sails or mylar sails).

If the wind picks up, at 35K or more, alone or with your wife, you would have trouble to de-power the main and to bring it down. With the huge wind force on the sail it would not come down from the last reef unless you have rigged a line on top of the sail to do just that (almost nobody has it and it would not be easy anyway) and you will find that with a small jib and a too much main sail area out, the boat will be very hard to turn to the wind to take the main down, even with the engine at full power.

I had experienced some troubles with that and even if I was not in danger it was probably one of the two situations were I felt not very confortable with the handling of my boat:

I had come out of Morocco with a Force 7 warning but as I would have it downwind I sailed away, for crossing the Gibraltar strait heading to Portugal.

I has having fun with 25/35K wind with a 3 reefed main and a partially furled genoa on a bumpy sea when, near the Spanish coast, that Force 7 upgraded for a Force 9/10 with winds of about 50K or more (I confess that looking at the wind force was the last of my concerns).

That was not gradual but come just in some seconds and without warning. The sea state become nasty, kind of Colorado river if you know what I mean, the boat had too much main and I was not able to maintain the course downwind, the boat turning to the wind, and of course, I could not pull the boom in and complete the turn because with that wind I was afraid to capsize the boat.

With that sea state I was afraid to let the boat on autopilot and go forward to pull the sail down (remember that the boat was turning on the wind and was unable to maintain course and that the spreaders made impossible to de-power the main). Finally at the third or 4th attempt with the engine full on and pulling the boom in as much as I dared and deeply heeled I managed to complete that turn and put the boat against the wind to take down the main.

After that, with the main rolled to the size of a small towel I was able to purse in complete safety doing 9K downwind and having fun in that very agitated sea, with lots of power and complete control.

This talked a lesson to me: Never to be caught in strong winds with the main on and as a preventing measure, if sailing alone, over 25/30K to sail downwind only with a genoa, instead of a main and genoa.

Later I talked with some friends that are experienced solo sailors and all have passed by this situation and knew precisely what I mean and I guess that they had got their lesson too

This problem is just a bigger problem if you have only a small jib that would not give you the power to sail fast downwind with 25/30K without the main and you would have to use it also, so you cannot avoid this unless you have a small dedicated spinnaker to go downwind..

I guess that I am not going to be caught again in a situation like the one I have described, at least in a boat that was a 135% genoa because with that sail I can go downwind fast with a 25K wind, but with a non overlapping small sail I would not have enough front sail and I would have to use the mainsail, so I cannot avoid it unless I have a dedicated strong wind small asymmetric spinnaker.

That would make 6 sails against 4, I mean:

1 - dedicated storm jib, 2 - non overlapping front sail, 3 - mainsail, 4 - asymmetric spinnaker, 5 - code 0 and 6 - small asymmetric spinnaker for winds over 20K.

Against: 1 - dedicated storm jib, 2 - 135% or 150% genoa, 3 - mainsail and 4-Code D.

With the last configuration the need of a third reef would also be smaller.

Of course you will sail faster with the 6 sails, the 4 are only a compromise that will not give the same performance but if you are only going to have 4 sails on board the second choice is much more flexible and even more easy for short sailing.

Remember you have to go out of the cockpit to rig that asymmetric spinnaker for strong winds with 20/25K and the sea is not always nice with that wind.

On the other option the genoa is already in place and you will only need to furl and unfurl it from the cockpit. You will only need to go forward for mounting the storm sail if things really turn out really nasty.

Hey guys, remember I am talking only in what regards performance sailing.

With 25K winds Eric's boat will go probably over 8K downwind even with only that small non overlapping head-sail but I guess that he don't want to see me passing him downwind with a big genoa and doing 10K. So he has to put the turbo on and rig a proper asymmetric spinnaker, one that can take 25 to 35K wind and go away doing over 14K, or it has to sail with the main and the small front sail and it will be exposed to a sudden rise of wind force.

Not a problem if you have a crew and not a very frequent situation but one that will eventually happen if you sail enough time and are not afraid of winds over 25K.

Of course, in what regards mainstream cruisers the modern tendency of the smaller front sail and bigger main makes all the sense, specially with furling mainsails and that's why practically all modern cruisers have gone that way.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-03-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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  #1842  
Old 01-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldcruiser View Post
What about Jongerts
They are great and strong boats built in aluminium. They only make big boats, over 60ft and they are selling much more motor yachts than sailing yachts.

I find they have a superstructure unnecessarily high and I don't like their traditional models, I mean the design and the sailing, not the quality

But I like some, particularly this 100ft, a Tony de Castro 2002 design:





They are proposing a 90ft nice Frers design (not any built) that is not far in design from what is offered already from several other shipyards that have made already several boats, like Shipman (even if those are Carbon boats):







What they are selling is this:

- Jongert Luxury Super Yachts

And I guess it will be their future.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-03-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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  #1843  
Old 01-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I'm not sure, if this boat has been posted yet...?
Gunfleet 43, was exhibited at the Southhampton Boatshow, a new venture for Richard Mathews (founder of Oyster Yachts), and designed by Tony Castro.
I find the design quite innovative, and not a repetition of features on other "new" designs, from the deck layout, helm (why hasn't anyone else thought of this?), and interior design. Also notable are the many opening portholes and hatches for good ventilation below, which so many new designs lack. Sail handling looks like the boat would be easy to single hand as well.
The Mathews/ Castro combo should also assure good sailing performance, can't wait for a review.....
13m Gunfleet 43 | Tony Castro Yacht Design
Hei Bjung, thanks for posting, but I guess that we don't have the same opinion I like the interior and the overall quality and that's all.

I saw this design some months back then it was on Southampton and Hamburg boat shows but as I did not like the boat I did not post about it.

I found the boat very ugly and with an old hull design although a modern bulbed keel.









That is a very British boat in a bad sense, I mean old design and ugly, one that only the English would like (are you English Bjung) but things are not what used to be anymore and even the English are making nice looking boats now. I bet than in two years they are going out of business and that Southerly are going to eat them alive.

That wheel even if nice it is not new. Arcona DS and Dehler 41 DS among others used them.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-03-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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  #1844  
Old 01-03-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Hey Paulo,

Thought this my interest you. Our godson is crewing on a Salona 44 in this year's Sydney to Hobart.

Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2011.. The Yachts

Cheers

Andrew
Hey Andrews, I have seen that the Salona 44 and your godson have done well on the Hobart: 32th overall and 3th on the division 2 on ORCI only beaten by two First 45 and not for much, a little bit more than 2 hours for the class winner, Victoire that is a well of a boat and it is a chronic winner of that class on the Hobart.

Fact is that the First is probably more efficient with heavy weather upwind, it is a heavier boat with a bigger B/D ratio. If there was some light wind sailing evolved the story could be other. I guess that the best boat to win that class in that race is the new XP-44. I wonder why there was none racing.

Please ask your godson what was his impression about the boat and post it here. I would like to know his opinion and the way the boat performed.



Regards

Paulo
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  #1845  
Old 01-04-2012
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Comet 31

I have passed the new year's eve in Rome and among other things went to have a look at where the Romans keep their boats. Mostly they keep them out of the marina on the river banks, a really nice place and I found there this beauty:













That's a brand new Comet 31 s, so new that they don't have yet pictures in their site

The boat is absolutely gorgeous one of those things you just want to have and I bet that it is a lot of fun to sail. Look at this specs:


Loa. 10,44 m
Hull lenght 9,74 m
beam 3,48 m
Draft 1,90 m
weight 3.900 Kg
ballast std 1.090 kg

Engine 20 hp
Diesel tank 45 lt
Water tank 170 lt

Sails
Main 32.80 m2
Genoa 108% 24.00 m2
Gennaker 85.00 m2

Comar Yachts
CE
Category B-A
Price 69.000,00 €

The numbers look as good as the boat. With 28% of B/D ratio but with all the weight on a bulb at 1.90m and a lot of form stability this small animal can carry a lot of sail and a geenaker with 85m2 for 3900kg is a lot of sail

This beauty should plane very easily: a delightful rocket sailboat that seems to have the potential for coastal cruising and the most amazing is that they say that the boat is certified for offshore work (RCD A category). On a light boat of this size that means a very well designed boat and a seaworthy boat for its size with good stability parameters.



I really like this one

Last edited by PCP; 10-15-2013 at 06:18 AM.
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  #1846  
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Sly yachts are among the very exclusive group of sailboats that mix luxury with top performance sailing and they are among the best. A true Ferrari of the seas; exclusive boats for the very rich.

Well not anymore, now the less rich can also have a Sly:

They are making a 38ft with moderate beam (3.70), 2.30m draft for 5500kg of weight and 85m2 of sail area upwind.

It is going to be fast and beautiful as all Sly. Take a look:




Last edited by PCP; 01-04-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 01-05-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemier View Post
Hey Paulo,
I shall save my Congratulations until the finance is in place, as you wish

.... For what it's worth, I believe you have made a great choice and you really can't go wrong with this boat (Salona 38) - well done Paulo!
Well, I have a sad announcement to made: I will not have that Salona 38

See Nemier, it gives bad luck to give congratulations before it happens.

Nothing to to with the Salona 38 or the guys from Salona that have been fantastic neither with the leasing concession but with the conditions.

Actually I have signed a leasing contract on the Paris boat show on the therms and conditions we have agreed almost a year ago, but it seems that on these days of crisis conditions are changing fast, not the ones that regards the leasing but the ones that regards tax.

I was taking advantage of a tax possibility they had with leasing: out of the EC waters I would not pay VAT on the leasing (23%). I was buying the boat directly to the Factory in Croatia (out of EC) VAT free and I would maintain the boat there with French flag till they enter to EC then would sail to Turquey and maintain the boat there. I could travel in any EC country for 6 months if I returned to out of EC before that.

As my program for the next 2 or 3 years is to know and sail on the Eastern Med that would suit me. I would pay the boat in 4 years and on the last months of the last year I would bring the boat to EC water, pay VAT on the last leasing and end up with a boat in my name with the VAT paid.

This has been made....till now Now it seems I cannot sail a single day on EC waters without paying the VAT and when I enter EC Waters I would have to pay VAT on the actual value of the boat that in 3 or 4 years would be about 150 000€.

That means not only that the boat would cost 30 000€ more than what I was prepared to pay but also that the boat could not sail in EC waters for any period of time without the VAT paid. That is a no deal since Croatia is going to enter EC next year and I could only sail in Turkish waters. I could not explore Greek Islands and cannot sail to açores, Madeira and Canarias as I want to.

I don't fell very bad with the Salona guys that were impecable and have developed a lot of modifications to do on the boat at my request because I know that I have helped to develop a better boat, even commercially and I know that because I talked with the French dealer (Paris boat show):

He wanted to know what were the modifications I had asked on the boat and after I have describe them to him he told me that he was asking for those same modifications without results and was completely baffled when I said that I had already the study designs made by Leo, the Salona house designer, of a nice carbon fixed bowsprit with an anchor roller and an anchor stand and the designs of a nice pair of integrated pods for the instruments. He didn't know nothing about it and was almost jumping with enthusiasm (a very nice guy, young and very enthusiastic).

So, anyway the Salona 38 would be the boat I would chose for the amount of money I had. If bought it know (at the beginning of the year) not only they would make me the boat I want as they would make me a nice discount. I have only good things to say about them.

But since I am short of 30 000€ I know I cannot find any new boat that can satisfy me and my sailing and cruising program and I am looking for a 2006/2007 used boat. I went to Roma, not only for the fun of the new year's eve but to see some boats. I almost bought one (I would not say the brand) that seemed almost perfect but unfortunately the hull moisture was over what should be expected and that was a no deal. But I have found very competent and nice guys that are helping me to find the boat I want, so if everything goes right there is a strong possibility that I will have a boat soon (I hope).

Guys, I am telling you all this because otherwise you would think that I am mad or that Salona would have not satisfied me. Well, I am a little mad, but nothing wrong with salona

....

Last edited by PCP; 01-05-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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  #1848  
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And a beautiful boat, "Eilean", designed by William Fife III, a classic 1936 sailboat (movie by Yacht magazine):



http://tv.yacht.de/video/Hauptsache-...c007b101fe2c4c



.....

Last edited by PCP; 01-05-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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  #1849  
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Dear Paulo
So sad to hear that you will not be buying the Salona after all. You have given us readers so much pleasure through this thread, and I am sure we all were happy for you because you seemed to have found the right boat for yourself. Too bad that it didn' work out!
Anyway, best of luck in your new hunt for a used boat. There are many interesting boats out there, as any reader of this thread knows And of course, looking for a new boat is exciting, so enjoy!
However, I didn't quite understand the tax problem. Is there any particular reason why you wanted to fly a French flag? Would the problem be solved if you gave the boat a Turkish flag? You might even choose to register the boat as belonging to my country, Norway, also outside of the EU. I believe you do not need to pay the Norwegian vat as long as the boat is not brought into the country.
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Westsail 32



I guess everybody knows the boat that has a reputation of being a seaworthy boat. It is an old design and an heavy and slow boat and most of you are probably thinking why the hell I am talking here about this boat.

Well, I could not resist I want to share with you all an article that I have read on the "Yacht" magazine, that's about Tom Corogan an American sailor that with 84 years has failed (again) his sixth attempt to round the Horn. This time he broke the boat mast. Somebody should tell him to try on another boat

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/articl...rn-2441149.php

Seriously the guy is a character, an experienced sailor that have sailed extensively his boat and has all my respect. I would like to be able to sail offshore solo with 84 years of age.



You can find the article here:

Seenotfall: 84-jähriger Einhandsegler gerettet - Panorama*|*YACHT.DE

or a full interview on the November issue of Latitudes 38

http://www.westsail.org/Resources/Do...L38112011s.pdf

Last edited by PCP; 01-05-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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