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  #181  
Old 09-03-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Paulo— All of the last set of photos are TRIMARANS, not Catamarans.
Ok! You have got me . I am going to edit it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post

... A majority of the photos of trimarans you have are of primarily two brands—quorning dragonflies and farrier-based Corsairs. I'm not surprised that these are flying an ama, as they are designed to do so... and even at rest, some of these designs will generally have one of the amas out of the water a tiny bit.
...
There several other brands on the photos, like the Trimax, the Seaon, or the Challenge and it could have been more if I could have found photos or remember the names. There are several interesting fast cruising trimarans on the European market even if the production is very limited. All of them are designed to be fast and to fly one hull.

Sailingdog, I have seen your informed comments about a Corsair 24 on other thread. I would like to have your colaboration on this thread. I am interested in the Corsair 37. Do you know the boat? Have been inside one or sailed one?
Can you post about it?

The boat is not expensive, if we compare it to a Dragonfly 35, but I have heard a lot of negative comments about it and its realiability.

Regards

Paulo
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  #182  
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Paulo—

IIRC, the Corsair 37 is just a slightly longer version of what used to be the Corsair 36. IIRC, the Corsair 36, which was introduced in 2003 and the following Corsair 37 were NOT designed by Ian Farrier. While they may use the Farrier designed folding system, and based on designs by Ian Farrier, they are not Farrier designs. I haven't sailed on the 37, as it is a fairly recent design and I haven't seen one in person either.

The recent Corsairs have been plagued with some quality control issues, since they moved production off-shore to Vietnam. Of course, quality control has slowly become more and more of an issue since Ian Farrier and Corsair Marine parted ways back in 2000 or so. IIRC, his decision to leave had a lot to do with them removing him from having complete say over the quality and methods used in production. He also revoked permission for Corsair marine to use his name in their materials and for their boats... which is why the Corsair 28/31 are now C-28/31 rather than the previous F-28/31 etc.

Dragonfly has amazing fit and finish, probably the best of the larger production trimaran manufacturers. The Dragonflies are pretty solid and seaworthy boats in my experience. There have been some pretty well-known failures, but IIRC, most were due to operator error.

As for trimarans designed to fly a hull... these are generally going to be racing designs, not cruising designs. Boats that are designed to fly a hull have significantly lower cargo carrying capacity than ones that generally have all three hulls in the water. It stands to reason that ones that are primarily designed as cruisers, will tend to have three hulls in the water and higher payload capacities.
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  #183  
Old 09-05-2010
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Corsair 37 - Farrier 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Paulo—

IIRC, the Corsair 37 is just a slightly longer version of what used to be the Corsair 36. IIRC, the Corsair 36, which was introduced in 2003 and the following Corsair 37 were NOT designed by Ian Farrier. While they may use the Farrier designed folding system, and based on designs by Ian Farrier, they are not Farrier designs. I haven't sailed on the 37, as it is a fairly recent design and I haven't seen one in person either.

The recent Corsairs have been plagued with some quality control issues, since they moved production off-shore to Vietnam. Of course, quality control has slowly become more and more of an issue since Ian Farrier and Corsair Marine parted ways back in 2000 or so. IIRC, his decision to leave had a lot to do with them removing him from having complete say over the quality and methods used in production. He also revoked permission for Corsair marine to use his name in their materials and for their boats... which is why the Corsair 28/31 are now C-28/31 rather than the previous F-28/31 etc.

Dragonfly has amazing fit and finish, probably the best of the larger production trimaran manufacturers. The Dragonflies are pretty solid and seaworthy boats in my experience. There have been some pretty well-known failures, but IIRC, most were due to operator error.

As for trimarans designed to fly a hull... these are generally going to be racing designs, not cruising designs. Boats that are designed to fly a hull have significantly lower cargo carrying capacity than ones that generally have all three hulls in the water. It stands to reason that ones that are primarily designed as cruisers, will tend to have three hulls in the water and higher payload capacities.
Thanks for the information

I know that the 37 is basically the 36ft. Some years back, before the chrisis, I exchange some e-mails with Ian Farrier about the Corsair 36 and the Farrier 39.

Basically I wanted to know what where the reasons that lead him not to allow to call the Corsair 36 a Farrier design and what where is main concerns about the boat (I was interested in the corsair 36). I was also interested in the Farrier 39 and wanted to know is recommendations about builders and prices of designs.

He was very straightforward. If I remember correctly (I have lost those e-mails) the main divergences regarding the 36 had to do with the linking of the amas to the main hull. Regarding the 39, that is a very nice boat, with sufficient space for my needs, after talking with some builders, it turned out that the boat would end up to be more expensive than my budget and the more experienced recommended builders were also far away (Canada).

The New F-39
http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/F-39AftCabinProfile.pdf
http://www.f-boat.com/pdf/F-39interior.pdf

I have also tried to see if my budget was enough for a Challenge 37 (it is not for a Dragonfly 35 that is the more expensive of them all), but I have given up. They are all too expensive for me. There is a big difference in price between one of those and for instance, a Pogo 10.50, that offers more interior space and only a slightly poorer performance.

Fotos de barco Voiliers Challenge 37-40 de Vela trimarã - Galeria
Naval Force 3 - Accueil

I don't agree with you when you say that :"As for trimarans designed to fly a hull... these are generally going to be racing designs, not cruising designs."

Ian Farrier describes the 36 as "a large, ocean going, cruising multihull" and as "cruising orientated" and the 39 as "The perfect high performance cruiser". As you know a Farrier 36 has already circumnavigated, as well as a smaller Corsair.

Most Dragonflies are used for cruising and there is even a Challenge 37 (or 33?) in Charter service.

I certainly agree with you when you say: "Boats that are designed to fly a hull have significantly lower cargo carrying capacity than ones that generally have all three hulls in the water."

But the main reason a sailor would buy a cruising trimaran is for sailing and cruising faster than in a monohull and for that you need a fast design and a light boat, that will fly a hull.

If you need a bigger cruising payload, well, you just need a bigger trimaram (for me the 39 would be enough). The real problem is the cost

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 01:04 PM.
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  #184  
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New Farr designed Bavaria 40

Back on Pag.10, Posts 96 and 99 we talked about the New Farr designed 40ft Bavaria.

Here are the first pictures:





Comments please!!

Regards

Paulo
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  #185  
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The Bavaria is probably heavy and slow, isn't it?

Here a major disadvantage my wife found for the Pogo 12.50:
If you are on a long trip with kids you will probably have no sex at all anymore because of missing doors ;-)

Ulf
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  #186  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Comments please!!

Regards

Paulo
This looks nice, but as all(?) Bavarias is probably even heavy and slow, isn't it?

Here a major disadvantage my wife found for the Pogo 12.50:
If you are on a long trip with kids you will probably have no sex at all anymore because of the missing doors ;-)

Ulf
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  #187  
Old 09-06-2010
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Bavaria 40

Ulf, this is not a boat to compare with the Pogo

This is a traditional cruiser and as so I believe that if correctly equipped it is not going to be a slow boat. I mean the boat has a deep keel and can have as options some of the best sails and equipment on the market.

This sails are an option that comes with the MDS mast car system:
Elvstrøm Sails - EPEX Technology
Sail Buyers Guide: Selden Mast

Their are mounted on a conventional mast with more sail area.

The previous 40ft was not a slow boat (with 18K wind and 2m waves, with a furler mast it could make 8k at 90º) and I believe this one is going to be faster.

On one of the pictures you can see that the new boat can point very well and that it seems to go fast in a breeze, even with a furling mast.

We can see also that the boat has 6 winches (that can be bigger as an option) and that means probably that it comes with a German sheeting system. That means that you can control the boom from the wheel. You can see also that the boat has no traveler and use the system that today is more vulgar on the cruising boats.

I believe that choice is connected with the use of German sheeting: It would not make sense to control the boom from the wheel but having to go forward to adjust the traveler.

I don't like the position of the second lateral winch. Too forward. What use have to be able to control the boom from the wheel if you have to go forward to control the Genoa? Perhaps they will move it back if you ask (I don't know if it is possible).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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  #188  
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Paulo

Comments as requested.
First attempt at critiquing boat.

All points from layman's perspective:

Cockpit appears large enough for entertaining the freeloaders on an afternoon soiree. Benches also appear large enough to sleep on. Not sure about drainage in big seas and the durability of the transom when flooded.
The transom adds another dimension and would be of great benefit for the family man.
Dodger and Bimini can be fitted which are almost mandatory for sailing down under.

very beamy and looks awkward to the eye not too sure if I like the asthetics.

No traveller does open up the cockpit but I do not have enough experience to comment on this and the sail plan.

The interior layout looks a little too 'ikea' for my tastes and I am concerned about durability.

It may suffer from lack of handholds etc but could be just the pictures.

The interior has good natural light and ventilation.

At the right price yes but others I prefer.
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  #189  
Old 09-07-2010
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Bavaria - On design - stability

Thanks!

Regarding the interior, I could not agree more. Definitively IKEA type. The Germans are probably great IKEA fans because Hanses also have the same kind of interiors .

But one thing is style, another is quality and if in what regards design the French and Italians are much better I am not so sure about quality. I have chartered recently a new Dufour 425 ( Dufours are the most expensive of all big production French boats and arguably the ones with better overall quality) and my wife and my daughter complained about the quality of the interior (not the design) and about the fragility. They were comparing it with the one from our old boat (a 2003 Bavaria) and they were not convinced by the Dufour quality.

Regarding handholds, have you saw the long steel bar that goes from one side of the galley to the other? And the support and handhold on the opposite side, on the back of the seat? They look solid and there are not many (if any) production boat that have a perfect place to clip your harness to fix you properly while you cook on the wrong tack. Of course this is the kind of thing you can only be sure inside the boat, I mean adequate handholds.

Regarding beam, this is a typical modern cruiser: It has 3.99m, about the same as the new jeanneau 409 and Dufour 405, only 8cm more than Oceanis 40 and less 4cm than the Hanse 400 and much less than a Pogo .

Were you can find differences are in weight and Ballast/Displacement ratios. Typically the French boats are lighter and have a poorer Ball/Displ ratio.
The Jeanneau 409 weights 7450kg and has a B/D of 0.30; The Oceanis 40 weights 8260kg, B/D of 0.26; The Dufour 405, 8080kg, B/D 0.29; The Hanse 400, 8400kg, B/D 0.32 and the Bavaria weights 9000kg and has a B/D of 0.31.

All boats have similar standard drafts (from 2.03 to 2.1m) with the exception of the Oceanis that has only 1.9m. All boats have similar keels with bulbs.

This means that the GZ curves ( length of the arm) should not be very different (with the exception of the one from the Oceanis that has less beam and has a remarkably worst B/D and has less draft). It means also that the ones from the Bavaria and Hanse should be the better ones.

With a better GZ curve and more weight, the Hanse and the Bavaria will have an overall better stability and more capacity to carry sails (the righting moment is obtained multiplying the GZ in each point of heel by the boat displacement). To be fair, l had to say that the Hanse can be made in Epoxy (expensive option) and then its weight goes down to 7900kg giving it an even better overall stability.

All the boats have about the same sail area ( Jeanneau 78m2, Dufour80m2, Oceanis 78,4, Bavaria 81m2, with the exception of Hanse that carries more (86,4 m2). Some boats, like the Jeanneau or Bavaria (I don’t know about Dufour) when using a conventional rig (not a furler main) can have performance sails with more area. On the Jeanneau that area goes from 78 to 93m2, I believe that you will have a similar difference on Bavaria and probably Dufour (between a boat with a Furler main and a conventional rig with performance sails).

The French boats come only with four winches and I believe that in most cases you cannot mount two extra winches, so you cannot have German sheeting and control the main from the wheel, but you have a traveler.

All this would mean that Bavaria would be the slower boat? Yes with light winds (if the Geenaker for the Bavaria is not bigger than the ones of the other boats) because the boat is heavier and carries not much more sail than the other boats, but with medium winds it will probably be faster than all the French boats.

He can carry more sail and more power without the need to reef. In medium or strong winds the Bavaria (with good sails) should be a close match to the Hanse, and the Hanse is a fast boat. It should also be more seaworthy (Stability and equipment), than the French boats. With bad weather and waves, the extra power will also be very useful.

All boats are compromises, and the Bavaria chose to have a more conventional boat with a good stability and a huge choice of options. The Bavaria is also the less expensive but you better take into account the options you will want, because it is possible to have more 40% of the boat price in options and extras. That’s what you pay for premium quality (sails, cars, winches and so on). A well equipped a Bavaria can be a good boat, a boat that will not only sail well in weak or average winds, but you have to pay for it.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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  #190  
Old 09-07-2010
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PCP—

If you're really looking for a nice cruising trimaran, it might be wise to check out the Hammerhead 34, which is a Chris White design. When I spoke to him earlier this year, he said that a custom built one was about $100,000 all up.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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