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post #1951 of 6763 Old 02-08-2012 Thread Starter
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Some movies for the night: Wipe out

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post #1952 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012 Thread Starter
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I have posted this in another thread and I think it would be of interest to post it here with some modifications. The subject is:

What happens to stability when we charge a modern boat?

Modern boats are not like old boats where the ballast was intern and the load was part of the ballast and indispensable to have stability.

On a modern keel ballasted boat the ballast is kept under the boat, on the keel, sometimes more than a meter under and because the boats displace very litte water and the hull is not deeply immersed, loading the boat, even with a good load distribution, has a negative effect on the GZ curve (arm's length curve) and therefore on the boat AVS and on the final stability.

But as we know what really measures the boat stability is not the GZ curve but the RM curve (moments curve) that is obtained multiplying the arm by the mass of the boat. So what we get is this:

If the GZ curve is worse, Why, on what regards most of the positive part of the curve, the RM curve is better? Simply because the added mass more than compensates the slight decrease of GZ in all points of the curve except in what regards the final stability and the AVS.

The Max righting moment will go up but in what regards the final stability, it will go down, as well as the AVS. On this case the AVS passes from 122 to 120.

Will the boat will be faster with a Max load than with a minimum load since he has more RM and can carry more sail? Every racer will tell you no. The added power cannot compensate the drag that the bigger weight will imply.

Will the boat be safer loaded than with no charge? That is debatable and it will depend on the boat and its B/D ratio but I will say that in most cases a boat with a half to 2/3 load will be safer. With this load the AVS and the final stability will not be yet much compromised and the boat would have a bigger positive stability and a bigger max righting moment.

But take care, when you approach the max load the final stability starts to be compromised and will be compromised if you go further than what the NA stated as a max load to the boat.

On the jeanneau boat manual (as in any other boat manual) they advise specifically on the safety precautions:

The boat shall not be loaded more with than the maximum load recommended by the builder, in particular the total weight of the food supplies, of the different equipment that are not supplied by the builder and of the persons on board.

If you will pass the Max load, that in this boat should be of about 5000 lb over the unloaded weight , the value of the AVS will decrease rapidly as the one from the final stability and you will have a boat with a compromised stability and not a safe boat to sail.

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post #1953 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012
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Great write-up. Love this kind of information.

Melissa Renee
Catalina 445, Hull #90
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post #1954 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012 Thread Starter
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Thanks Melrna, nice to know.

I have enjoyed this movie about Lazarote, Canary Islands posted by Voile and Voiliers:


Lanzarote : du vent, des vagues et des volcans...

That's in French and I guess that a fair number understand French but even for the ones that don't understand the images are self explanatory.

Some hints for the ones that can't get much of what is said: Sunsail has there several First 40 for advanced sailing courses. There are also a nice charter company (at least the girl is pretty) with Dufour 40 (nice boat) that you can sail from Lazarote and leave at any other Island (for 300€ more), the Marinas are incredibly inexpensive and that's a sailing paradise:

Almost 25K wind all the time with water at 20Ί in winter.

That's why you see lot's of big racing boats there. The place is perfect for training. Nice places to stay on anchor too, if you don't mind the wind.


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post #1955 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012 Thread Starter
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The new 50ft cruising boat from Elan, the 494, designed as usual by Rob Humphreys:

Rob knows how to do good seaworthy cruisers but I guess that it is not enough these days. The boat looks heavy and a bit fat. I don't think it is going to be a match to several other 50ft on the market. The interior is functional but unimaginative and quite stark. The bad quality of the renderings is not helping either.

I don't see easy times ahead for Elan. Yes they have beautiful 31ft and 35ft performance boats but most of the sales used to be with the cruising line...and I cannot sea where they are heading, with the 394 and this one.

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post #1956 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012
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Hey Guys,

my last post, quite a while ago, has been about multihulls. I am still convinced they are the right solution for my plans.

A brand new model has just been put into the water - this is a great design, isn't it?

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post #1957 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012
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and this is inside...
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post #1958 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012 Thread Starter
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Great boat Ulf...but are you really considering a cat of that size? That's huge and it will cost what? 2 million?

Perhaps you want to consider something really different?

Look at this:



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post #1959 of 6763 Old 02-09-2012
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Well, ok, this is a bit huge - you are absolutely right.
But I like the design!
By the way - its the new Outremer 5x!

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post #1960 of 6763 Old 02-10-2012
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Hanse 350

Hi Paulo

Well after a long search, I have finally made up my mind. My model for purchasing a boat is somewhat different to the way most folk have purchased their boat on this forum although I may be wrong

My personal circumstances find me very much still trying to earn a living which means that the time I am able to spend sailing is more limited than someone who is retired. In addition, the cruising opportunities are quite limited in Cape Town unless you like Force7/8 winds with very little place to go. Sailing in Cape Town is therefore dominated by round- the-can racing on Wednesdays and weekends (weather permitting) which is fine for occasional racing but not so good for cruising. If it were any different, then you can be sure that Sunsail and Moorings would have a base here.

So, how to satisfy a passion for sailing with limited time and limited opportunity on your doorstep without spending a disproportionate amount of money? My model for yacht ownership has therefore become DIY fractional ownership of a second hand yacht kept in a non VAT paying jurisdiction. This model has a number of advantages and some disadvantages.

First the advantages:
• The capital cost is split between 3 owners in agreed shares
• The monthly running expenses are shared in the same proportion – this would cover marina costs, maintenance, insurance, licencing etc;
• Any improvements to the yacht are funded by the partners in proportion to their share – after prior agreement by all the owners of course;
• Each owner has a responsibility - there is a bosun, an accountant and a manager with clearly defined responsibilities – hence the do-it-yourself (DIY) nature of the consortium as opposed to having a syndicate manager;
• With only 3 partners and a sailing season in most Med countries of around 24 weeks, I will have 8 weeks of sailing which can be taken at any time during the sailing season and by agreement with the other owners; as a 1/3 owner, i would of course have the right to use the boat outside of the sailing season as well;
• This arrangement is a massive saving over chartering for a similar period even if one takes into account depreciation which would be significant on a new yacht but far more limited for a second hand yacht.

Now for the disadvantages
• The nature of shared ownership means that you are forced to compromise over usage, improvements, location of the yacht now and in the future;
• The yacht will be used by other owners although there is an owners agreement that is similar to a shareholder’s agreement that ensures the yacht is kept in the best possible condition; 3 owners having a vested interest in the upkeep and improvement of their yacht is a world away from giving your boat to a charter company for charter; most owners agreements specifically exclude chartering
• Shared ownership implies having co-owners who may have different values although I am told that this is more a problem in theory than in practice from those who have been involved in a number of consortia in the past;
• The choice of second hand boat is limited to what is available in the fractional share market at the time unless you are willing to fund the purchase of a second hand boat yourself and then look for co-owners afterwards – obviously a riskier strategy.
• You could of course decide to buy a new boat of your choice and then seek fellow owners who share your vision of what is ideal as a cruiser/racer –
again a riskier strategy;

The choice of a second hand yacht kept in a non VAT paying jurisdiction with 2 other fellow owners seemed to make the most sense to me as my first foray into yacht ownership given my own circumstances. The cost benefit is obvious given that a relatively new second hand yacht should trade at around a 30% discount to the new discounted price with the added benefit of not paying VAT either.

So much for the background.

I have just concluded the purchase of a third share of a well specified 2008 Hanse 350 with 120 hours on the engine. The current model is the Hanse 355 which includes a more traditional layout down below, a slightly longer V-berth and a revised swimming platform – it is the same boat in almost all other respects. The boat will be used for coastal cruising in Croatia until we decide to re-locate it which my fellow owners are open to. I love the look of the boat which I find to be very European. I would have preferred a nicer bathing platform and twin wheels which some of the newer models have. The Dufour 335 immediately springs to mind.

As you know, I have long been a fan of Hanse’s - my first post on Interesting sailboats asked your opinion of a Hanse 375. They also have a very strong owners forum which confirms that they are owned by enthusiasts.

The Hanse brand’s ethos is:

“Fast, easy to handle yachts, which actually belong to the category of safe ocean voyagers and are quick enough to win races as well”

The emphasis at Hanse in terms of where the money is spent is on the hull and the rig with less money spent on the interiors. This probably explains why so many are bought by Scandinavians who are not able to afford the much more expensive yachts built in their own countries. The design is by Judel and Vrolijk who have a strong racing pedigree most famous for their design of Alinghi, winner of the Americas cup. They also design Najad and Baltic yachts amongst others.

These are its vital statistics:
LOA 10.59 m | 34΄7˝
Hull length 10.50 m | 34΄4˝
LWL 9.60 m | 31΄5˝
Beam 3.55 m | 11΄6˝
Draft 1.92 m | 6΄3˝ (standard)
Displacement approx. 6.36 t | approx. 14,021 lb
Ballast approx. 1,845 kg | approx. 4,068 lb (standard)
Engine 16.2 kW / 22 HP Yanmar saildrive
Fresh water approx. 240 l
Fuel tank approx. 120 l
CE Certificate A (ocean)
Mast length above WL approx. 16.43 m | approx. 53΄9˝
Total sail area approx. 64.86 m2 | approx. 698 sq ft
Main sail approx. 35.25 m2 | approx. 379 sq ft
Self-tacking jib approx. 29.61 m2 | approx. 319 sq ft
Design judel / vrolijk & co

My comments on the Hanse 350 are as follows:

• Waterline length
o LWL vs LOA – modern design with very little overhang fore and aft which maximises maximum waterline length which should translate into improved speed

• Hull
o quite beamy with beam carried all the way back – should result in good downwind performance – L/B – 3.0 which is not excessive by modern standards; (Oceanis 37 – 2.93)
o Fine point of entry should contribute to good upwind performance;
o Strong form stability
o Hull is hand landed. Epoxy based vinylester resin is added as a top layer with the final gelcoat on top of that. Hull is solid laminate up to the waterline then foam cored up the deck. The deck is a balsa sandwich
o All bulkheads are structurally bonded not spot bonded as is the case with some French producers;
o There is a glass fibre matrix bonded to the hull around the keel which forms a ring frame to which the rigging is tied and which also picks up loads from the keel. The 2 fore and aft stiffening members either side of the centreline are filled with resin as are the transverse members that join them. The others are hollow and limbered to allow any bilge water to run through.
o At 6.4 tons, the Hanse 350 is not the lightest boat around. The re-inforcements detailed above no doubt contribute to this. The downside is that she may suffer a little in lightwind performance although current owners say differently particularly when fitted with an overlapping genoa. The upside is that she will feel more solid in a sea. The epoxy version is not available in the smaller sizes. (The Oceanis 37 which is 11.5m weighs 6.5 tons.) D/L – 200 (Oceanis 37 – 162)

• Keel shape and rudder
o Iron keel with torpedo shape resulting in low centre of gravity – B/D – 29% (not adjusted for low COG) - ; B/D for Oceanis 37 is 27.2% which has a spade keel;
o This together with strong from stability should make the boat stiff;
o A draft of 1.92m should not pose too many problems in a non-tidal area like Croatia and should mean good performance to windward particularly with the self tacker which you can sheet in very tightly.
o Deep rudder with rod and pinion system which has no play or creaking. The rudder is made from weight saving aluminium with self aligning bearings which apparently makes the steering lighter and more responsive – we shall see.

• The rig
o A modern high aspect rig design with a large mainsail and a small self tacking headsail as standard;
o The mast is tapered for performance tuning via an adjustable backstay;
o What is interesting is that on the H350, the shrouds are inside next to the coachroof which enables you to mount a 140% genoa. The upgraded H355 has the shrouds on the gunwale which limits this to 105%; (the Oceanis 37 has the shrouds on the gunwale which can accept a 105% genoa)
o The mast is supported by 2 sets of spreaders with continuous diagonals that allow for easy adjustment - typically found on racing boats but not that often on cruisers;
o Standard sails are from North with a SA/D of 19.2 with the self tacker and 22.1 with a 140% genoa (Oceanis 37 – 19.4 with 105% genoa). The polars for the boat show that from 12knots TWS and up, there is no penalty for using the self tacker;
o Given it’s weight and the sail set up I would imagine that the boat will come into it own in winds that are over 10knots. In lighter winds, i would imagine that a large overlapping genoa will be needed with an assymetrical a must for downwind sailing.

• Interior
o One can only imagine that there was more criticism for the assymetrical layout in the H350 with en suite heads upfront which has resulted in a change in the H355 which has the heads aft and a more symmetrical layout in the saloon;
o Having said that I like the look of the layout in the H350 and am not planning to use oilskins which then have to be hauled through the saloon before being stored in the heads;
o The downside in the new H355 layout is that the heads are slightly smaller than in the H350 and the saloon area is also slightly smaller;
o With a high freeboard, the minimum head room is in the V-berth at 1.85m which means I can stand up straight
o We have the lighter more expensive cherry wood option in our boat which I must say that I prefer to the more traditional mahogany look – with the more expensive white cushions which also look pretty cool

• Cruising capability
o Great size cockpit for a 35 footer – apparently bigger than the cockpit on the Hanse 375 on account of the twin wheel layout;
o There are many options for Hanse owners to choose from including whether the traveller is in the cockpit or on the coachroof . This boat has the traveller on the coachroof. I will need to explore the option of mounting the mainsheet to a single point in the cockpit with a block and tackle and fine tuner along the lines of the Dufour 335 with my fellow owners A few other Hanse owners have this dual set up which looks interesting.
o With a water tank of 240l and fuel of 120l, this is adequate for the coastal cruising we will do;
o Also the size of the boat is very similar to the Jeanneau 36i that we sailed in last year in October which we found perfectly suitable for a couple and would easily handle another 2 people for a week at a time – (J36i hull length – 10.69m vs 10.5m and beam 3.59m vs 3.55m)

• Stability/safety
o Practical Boat Owner published the following info in the March 2008 edition:
 Stix – 37;
 AVS – 133 (118.2 per ORC)
 Maximum righting moment – 53;
o Looking at the hull shape, the way the hull has been designed and the keel design, I would say that the boat will be safe and stiff – B/D (not adjusted) – 29%.

PBO concluded – Where the 350 stands out is in being fast, responsive and fun to sail and in most obvious respects, sensibly built.

What I found interesting in finally making a decision are the mixed emotions one has. On the one hand, I am happy with my decision for all the reasons I have given. On the other hand, having finally made the choice, I now feel limited as I know there are so many other options out there that one could make a case for – I don’t think one can honestly say that there is a yacht that is the ONE. I am sure that you have probably had similar emotions?

All the best


Ps - Not me in the picture – a proud owner from the Hanse Owners forum  A great view of the keel and the rudder though.
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