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  #1961  
Old 02-09-2012
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and this is inside...
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  #1962  
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Great boat Ulf...but are you really considering a cat of that size? That's huge and it will cost what? 2 million?

Perhaps you want to consider something really different?

Look at this:























Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-09-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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  #1963  
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Well, ok, this is a bit huge - you are absolutely right.
But I like the design!
By the way - its the new Outremer 5x!

Last edited by myocean; 02-10-2012 at 01:29 AM.
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Hanse 350

Hi Paulo

Well after a long search, I have finally made up my mind. My model for purchasing a boat is somewhat different to the way most folk have purchased their boat on this forum although I may be wrong

My personal circumstances find me very much still trying to earn a living which means that the time I am able to spend sailing is more limited than someone who is retired. In addition, the cruising opportunities are quite limited in Cape Town unless you like Force7/8 winds with very little place to go. Sailing in Cape Town is therefore dominated by round- the-can racing on Wednesdays and weekends (weather permitting) which is fine for occasional racing but not so good for cruising. If it were any different, then you can be sure that Sunsail and Moorings would have a base here.

So, how to satisfy a passion for sailing with limited time and limited opportunity on your doorstep without spending a disproportionate amount of money? My model for yacht ownership has therefore become DIY fractional ownership of a second hand yacht kept in a non VAT paying jurisdiction. This model has a number of advantages and some disadvantages.

First the advantages:
• The capital cost is split between 3 owners in agreed shares
• The monthly running expenses are shared in the same proportion – this would cover marina costs, maintenance, insurance, licencing etc;
• Any improvements to the yacht are funded by the partners in proportion to their share – after prior agreement by all the owners of course;
• Each owner has a responsibility - there is a bosun, an accountant and a manager with clearly defined responsibilities – hence the do-it-yourself (DIY) nature of the consortium as opposed to having a syndicate manager;
• With only 3 partners and a sailing season in most Med countries of around 24 weeks, I will have 8 weeks of sailing which can be taken at any time during the sailing season and by agreement with the other owners; as a 1/3 owner, i would of course have the right to use the boat outside of the sailing season as well;
• This arrangement is a massive saving over chartering for a similar period even if one takes into account depreciation which would be significant on a new yacht but far more limited for a second hand yacht.

Now for the disadvantages
• The nature of shared ownership means that you are forced to compromise over usage, improvements, location of the yacht now and in the future;
• The yacht will be used by other owners although there is an owners agreement that is similar to a shareholder’s agreement that ensures the yacht is kept in the best possible condition; 3 owners having a vested interest in the upkeep and improvement of their yacht is a world away from giving your boat to a charter company for charter; most owners agreements specifically exclude chartering
• Shared ownership implies having co-owners who may have different values although I am told that this is more a problem in theory than in practice from those who have been involved in a number of consortia in the past;
• The choice of second hand boat is limited to what is available in the fractional share market at the time unless you are willing to fund the purchase of a second hand boat yourself and then look for co-owners afterwards – obviously a riskier strategy.
• You could of course decide to buy a new boat of your choice and then seek fellow owners who share your vision of what is ideal as a cruiser/racer –
again a riskier strategy;

The choice of a second hand yacht kept in a non VAT paying jurisdiction with 2 other fellow owners seemed to make the most sense to me as my first foray into yacht ownership given my own circumstances. The cost benefit is obvious given that a relatively new second hand yacht should trade at around a 30% discount to the new discounted price with the added benefit of not paying VAT either.

So much for the background.

I have just concluded the purchase of a third share of a well specified 2008 Hanse 350 with 120 hours on the engine. The current model is the Hanse 355 which includes a more traditional layout down below, a slightly longer V-berth and a revised swimming platform – it is the same boat in almost all other respects. The boat will be used for coastal cruising in Croatia until we decide to re-locate it which my fellow owners are open to. I love the look of the boat which I find to be very European. I would have preferred a nicer bathing platform and twin wheels which some of the newer models have. The Dufour 335 immediately springs to mind.

As you know, I have long been a fan of Hanse’s - my first post on Interesting sailboats asked your opinion of a Hanse 375. They also have a very strong owners forum which confirms that they are owned by enthusiasts.

The Hanse brand’s ethos is:

“Fast, easy to handle yachts, which actually belong to the category of safe ocean voyagers and are quick enough to win races as well”

The emphasis at Hanse in terms of where the money is spent is on the hull and the rig with less money spent on the interiors. This probably explains why so many are bought by Scandinavians who are not able to afford the much more expensive yachts built in their own countries. The design is by Judel and Vrolijk who have a strong racing pedigree most famous for their design of Alinghi, winner of the Americas cup. They also design Najad and Baltic yachts amongst others.

These are its vital statistics:
LOA 10.59 m | 34´7˝
Hull length 10.50 m | 34´4˝
LWL 9.60 m | 31´5˝
Beam 3.55 m | 11´6˝
Draft 1.92 m | 6´3˝ (standard)
Displacement approx. 6.36 t | approx. 14,021 lb
Ballast approx. 1,845 kg | approx. 4,068 lb (standard)
Engine 16.2 kW / 22 HP Yanmar saildrive
Fresh water approx. 240 l
Fuel tank approx. 120 l
CE Certificate A (ocean)
Mast length above WL approx. 16.43 m | approx. 53´9˝
Total sail area approx. 64.86 m2 | approx. 698 sq ft
Main sail approx. 35.25 m2 | approx. 379 sq ft
Self-tacking jib approx. 29.61 m2 | approx. 319 sq ft
Design judel / vrolijk & co

My comments on the Hanse 350 are as follows:

• Waterline length
o LWL vs LOA – modern design with very little overhang fore and aft which maximises maximum waterline length which should translate into improved speed

• Hull
o quite beamy with beam carried all the way back – should result in good downwind performance – L/B – 3.0 which is not excessive by modern standards; (Oceanis 37 – 2.93)
o Fine point of entry should contribute to good upwind performance;
o Strong form stability
o Hull is hand landed. Epoxy based vinylester resin is added as a top layer with the final gelcoat on top of that. Hull is solid laminate up to the waterline then foam cored up the deck. The deck is a balsa sandwich
o All bulkheads are structurally bonded not spot bonded as is the case with some French producers;
o There is a glass fibre matrix bonded to the hull around the keel which forms a ring frame to which the rigging is tied and which also picks up loads from the keel. The 2 fore and aft stiffening members either side of the centreline are filled with resin as are the transverse members that join them. The others are hollow and limbered to allow any bilge water to run through.
o At 6.4 tons, the Hanse 350 is not the lightest boat around. The re-inforcements detailed above no doubt contribute to this. The downside is that she may suffer a little in lightwind performance although current owners say differently particularly when fitted with an overlapping genoa. The upside is that she will feel more solid in a sea. The epoxy version is not available in the smaller sizes. (The Oceanis 37 which is 11.5m weighs 6.5 tons.) D/L – 200 (Oceanis 37 – 162)

• Keel shape and rudder
o Iron keel with torpedo shape resulting in low centre of gravity – B/D – 29% (not adjusted for low COG) - ; B/D for Oceanis 37 is 27.2% which has a spade keel;
o This together with strong from stability should make the boat stiff;
o A draft of 1.92m should not pose too many problems in a non-tidal area like Croatia and should mean good performance to windward particularly with the self tacker which you can sheet in very tightly.
o Deep rudder with rod and pinion system which has no play or creaking. The rudder is made from weight saving aluminium with self aligning bearings which apparently makes the steering lighter and more responsive – we shall see.

• The rig
o A modern high aspect rig design with a large mainsail and a small self tacking headsail as standard;
o The mast is tapered for performance tuning via an adjustable backstay;
o What is interesting is that on the H350, the shrouds are inside next to the coachroof which enables you to mount a 140% genoa. The upgraded H355 has the shrouds on the gunwale which limits this to 105%; (the Oceanis 37 has the shrouds on the gunwale which can accept a 105% genoa)
o The mast is supported by 2 sets of spreaders with continuous diagonals that allow for easy adjustment - typically found on racing boats but not that often on cruisers;
o Standard sails are from North with a SA/D of 19.2 with the self tacker and 22.1 with a 140% genoa (Oceanis 37 – 19.4 with 105% genoa). The polars for the boat show that from 12knots TWS and up, there is no penalty for using the self tacker;
o Given it’s weight and the sail set up I would imagine that the boat will come into it own in winds that are over 10knots. In lighter winds, i would imagine that a large overlapping genoa will be needed with an assymetrical a must for downwind sailing.

• Interior
o One can only imagine that there was more criticism for the assymetrical layout in the H350 with en suite heads upfront which has resulted in a change in the H355 which has the heads aft and a more symmetrical layout in the saloon;
o Having said that I like the look of the layout in the H350 and am not planning to use oilskins which then have to be hauled through the saloon before being stored in the heads;
o The downside in the new H355 layout is that the heads are slightly smaller than in the H350 and the saloon area is also slightly smaller;
o With a high freeboard, the minimum head room is in the V-berth at 1.85m which means I can stand up straight
o We have the lighter more expensive cherry wood option in our boat which I must say that I prefer to the more traditional mahogany look – with the more expensive white cushions which also look pretty cool

• Cruising capability
o Great size cockpit for a 35 footer – apparently bigger than the cockpit on the Hanse 375 on account of the twin wheel layout;
o There are many options for Hanse owners to choose from including whether the traveller is in the cockpit or on the coachroof . This boat has the traveller on the coachroof. I will need to explore the option of mounting the mainsheet to a single point in the cockpit with a block and tackle and fine tuner along the lines of the Dufour 335 with my fellow owners A few other Hanse owners have this dual set up which looks interesting.
o With a water tank of 240l and fuel of 120l, this is adequate for the coastal cruising we will do;
o Also the size of the boat is very similar to the Jeanneau 36i that we sailed in last year in October which we found perfectly suitable for a couple and would easily handle another 2 people for a week at a time – (J36i hull length – 10.69m vs 10.5m and beam 3.59m vs 3.55m)

• Stability/safety
o Practical Boat Owner published the following info in the March 2008 edition:
 Stix – 37;
 AVS – 133 (118.2 per ORC)
 Maximum righting moment – 53;
o Looking at the hull shape, the way the hull has been designed and the keel design, I would say that the boat will be safe and stiff – B/D (not adjusted) – 29%.

PBO concluded – Where the 350 stands out is in being fast, responsive and fun to sail and in most obvious respects, sensibly built.

What I found interesting in finally making a decision are the mixed emotions one has. On the one hand, I am happy with my decision for all the reasons I have given. On the other hand, having finally made the choice, I now feel limited as I know there are so many other options out there that one could make a case for – I don’t think one can honestly say that there is a yacht that is the ONE. I am sure that you have probably had similar emotions?

All the best

David


Ps - Not me in the picture – a proud owner from the Hanse Owners forum  A great view of the keel and the rudder though.
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  #1965  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Well, ok, this is a bit huge - you are absolutely right.
But I like the design!
By the way - its the new Outremer 5x!


Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 5X

Yes I know, it is a great boat as I have said. There are more great cats of that size as the Gunboat 60, the Alibi 55, the Sig 60, Tag 60 and some more but I guess that for two the Outremer 49 would be more than enough.


Alibi - Catamaran manufacturer - Constructeur de catamarans - Catalibi

High Performance Multihull Sailing Yachts, Gunboat Luxury Catamarans

Tag Yacht Sales

Young Yacht Design

Multihulls, Sailing and Motor boats | Barramundi boats

SIG60

Anyway if I was on that price range I would look also at a very special monohull that is for sale, The Ourson rapide, a boat that is already a mythic boat and also a very fast boat, probably more easy to sail alone then a big cat. I know, the asked price is big but I would not be surprised if the boat was sold by 50% less. Bad time for selling used boats, good time to buy



OURSON RAPIDE Boat for sale


Ourson Rapide | finot-conq architectes navals

Personally If i was in out position, if I had the money to buy the boat I could chose to circumnavigate, I would buy this one:



Fast and strong enough for me, not to mention that is a very easy and safe boat to sail solo even in very bad weather and with a more comfortable sea motion, I mean, in bad weather.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-07-2014 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Strange behaviour by the Orson Rapide link.
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  #1966  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
...
• The nature of shared ownership means that you are forced to compromise over usage, improvements, location of the yacht now and in the future;
..
...
I have just concluded the purchase of a third share of a well specified 2008 Hanse 350 with 120 hours on the engine. ... The boat will be used for coastal cruising in Croatia until we decide to re-locate it which my fellow owners are open to. I love the look of the boat which I find to be very European.....

As you know, I have long been a fan of Hanse’s - my first post on Interesting sailboats asked your opinion of a Hanse 375. They also have a very strong owners forum which confirms that they are owned by enthusiasts.

The Hanse brand’s ethos is:

“Fast, easy to handle yachts, which actually belong to the category of safe ocean voyagers and are quick enough to win races as well”

The emphasis at Hanse in terms of where the money is spent is on the hull and the rig with less money spent on the interiors. This probably explains why so many are bought by Scandinavians who are not able to afford the much more expensive yachts built in their own countries. The design is by Judel and Vrolijk who have a strong racing pedigree most famous for their design of Alinghi, winner of the Americas cup. ..

These are its vital statistics:
LOA 10.59 m | 34´7˝
Hull length 10.50 m | 34´4˝
LWL 9.60 m | 31´5˝
Beam 3.55 m | 11´6˝
Draft 1.92 m | 6´3˝ (standard)
Displacement approx. 6.36 t | approx. 14,021 lb
Ballast approx. 1,845 kg | approx. 4,068 lb (standard)
Engine 16.2 kW / 22 HP Yanmar saildrive
Fresh water approx. 240 l
Fuel tank approx. 120 l
CE Certificate A (ocean)
Mast length above WL approx. 16.43 m | approx. 53´9˝
Total sail area approx. 64.86 m2 | approx. 698 sq ft
....

My comments on the Hanse 350 are as follows:

• Waterline length
o LWL vs LOA – modern design with very little overhang fore and aft which maximises maximum waterline length which should translate into improved speed

• Hull
o quite beamy with beam carried all the way back – should result in good downwind performance – L/B – 3.0 which is not excessive by modern standards; (Oceanis 37 – 2.93)
o Fine point of entry should contribute to good upwind performance;
o Strong form stability
o Hull is hand landed. Epoxy based vinylester resin is added as a top layer with the final gelcoat on top of that. Hull is solid laminate up to the waterline then foam cored up the deck. The deck is a balsa sandwich
o All bulkheads are structurally bonded not spot bonded as is the case with some French producers;
o There is a glass fibre matrix bonded to the hull around the keel which forms a ring frame to which the rigging is tied and which also picks up loads from the keel. The 2 fore and aft stiffening members either side of the centreline are filled with resin as are the transverse members that join them. The others are hollow and limbered to allow any bilge water to run through.
o At 6.4 tons, the Hanse 350 is not the lightest boat around. The re-inforcements detailed above no doubt contribute to this. The downside is that she may suffer a little in lightwind performance although current owners say differently particularly when fitted with an overlapping genoa. The upside is that she will feel more solid in a sea. The epoxy version is not available in the smaller sizes. (The Oceanis 37 which is 11.5m weighs 6.5 tons.) D/L – 200 (Oceanis 37 – 162)

• Keel shape and rudder
o Iron keel with torpedo shape resulting in low centre of gravity – B/D – 29% (not adjusted for low COG) - ; B/D for Oceanis 37 is 27.2% which has a spade keel;
o This together with strong from stability should make the boat stiff;
o A draft of 1.92m should not pose too many problems in a non-tidal area like Croatia and should mean good performance to windward particularly with the self tacker which you can sheet in very tightly.
o Deep rudder with rod and pinion system which has no play or creaking. The rudder is made from weight saving aluminium with self aligning bearings which apparently makes the steering lighter and more responsive – we shall see.

• The rig
o A modern high aspect rig design with a large mainsail and a small self tacking headsail as standard;
o The mast is tapered for performance tuning via an adjustable backstay;
o What is interesting is that on the H350, the shrouds are inside next to the coachroof which enables you to mount a 140% genoa. The upgraded H355 has the shrouds on the gunwale which limits this to 105%; (the Oceanis 37 has the shrouds on the gunwale which can accept a 105% genoa)
o The mast is supported by 2 sets of spreaders with continuous diagonals that allow for easy adjustment - typically found on racing boats but not that often on cruisers;
o Standard sails are from North with a SA/D of 19.2 with the self tacker and 22.1 with a 140% genoa (Oceanis 37 – 19.4 with 105% genoa). The polars for the boat show that from 12knots TWS and up, there is no penalty for using the self tacker;
o Given it’s weight and the sail set up I would imagine that the boat will come into it own in winds that are over 10knots. In lighter winds, i would imagine that a large overlapping genoa will be needed with an assymetrical a must for downwind sailing.

• Interior
o One can only imagine that there was more criticism for the assymetrical layout in the H350 with en suite heads upfront which has resulted in a change in the H355 which has the heads aft and a more symmetrical layout in the saloon;
o Having said that I like the look of the layout in the H350 and am not planning to use oilskins which then have to be hauled through the saloon before being stored in the heads;
o The downside in the new H355 layout is that the heads are slightly smaller than in the H350 and the saloon area is also slightly smaller;
o With a high freeboard, the minimum head room is in the V-berth at 1.85m which means I can stand up straight
o We have the lighter more expensive cherry wood option in our boat which I must say that I prefer to the more traditional mahogany look – with the more expensive white cushions which also look pretty cool

• Cruising capability
o Great size cockpit for a 35 footer – apparently bigger than the cockpit on the Hanse 375 on account of the twin wheel layout;
o There are many options for Hanse owners to choose from including whether the traveller is in the cockpit or on the coachroof . This boat has the traveller on the coachroof. I will need to explore the option of mounting the mainsheet to a single point in the cockpit with a block and tackle and fine tuner along the lines of the Dufour 335 with my fellow owners A few other Hanse owners have this dual set up which looks interesting.
o With a water tank of 240l and fuel of 120l, this is adequate for the coastal cruising we will do;
o Also the size of the boat is very similar to the Jeanneau 36i that we sailed in last year in October which we found perfectly suitable for a couple and would easily handle another 2 people for a week at a time – (J36i hull length – 10.69m vs 10.5m and beam 3.59m vs 3.55m)

• Stability/safety
o Practical Boat Owner published the following info in the March 2008 edition:
 Stix – 37;
 AVS – 133 (118.2 per ORC)
 Maximum righting moment – 53;
o Looking at the hull shape, the way the hull has been designed and the keel design, I would say that the boat will be safe and stiff – B/D (not adjusted) – 29%.

PBO concluded – Where the 350 stands out is in being fast, responsive and fun to sail and in most obvious respects, sensibly built.

What I found interesting in finally making a decision are the mixed emotions one has. On the one hand, I am happy with my decision for all the reasons I have given. On the other hand, having finally made the choice, I now feel limited as I know there are so many other options out there that one could make a case for – I don’t think one can honestly say that there is a yacht that is the ONE. I am sure that you have probably had similar emotions?

All the best

David


Hi David,

Congratulations




The Hanse 350 is a nice boat with a performance keel and a particularly good stability. The 118AVS ORC means a boat with a very good final stability.

As you say a bit heavy, as all German boats but you can always use a geenaker on light winds.

You will not have any problem regarding draft in Croatia with a 2.0m draft boat. Last summer I sailed there with a 2.70m draft boat and I was surprised to see that this is not a problem in Croatia.

However you will only be able to stay there till next year. If you stay there you will pay a 23% Vat tax on the value of the boat. I strongly advise you to look now for and adequate place to put the boat next year because there are a lot of guys doing the same (all the guys that have the boats in Croatia with non paid VAT and they are a lot). As I was considering doing something very similar (without the shared ownership) I have studied the situation and the logical place to leave the boat next year is Turkey. But pay attention they demand boats with a black water tank. Places there are going to be very difficult to find. The best I could find was on the Turkish part of Cyprus. Nice price, very good protection and very near of the Turkish coasts.

As I have said here several times, for me the only negative aspect of the Hanses is the Ikea interior and it is not even the quality of the material, more a design fault.

Truth is that if I cannot get the boat I want, one of the boats I was considering was an almost new epoxy Hanse 430. I don't like the interior but the boat offers solidity and decent sailing for a good price.

Anyway with a shared ownership it is almost good that the interior is not a very nice one otherwise you would be appalled with the damage made by other owners.

I sailed last year 15 days on the previous version of that boat and it was already a solid and stiff boat. The family protested that our Bavaria was better, but solid any way, with some oddities.

Maybe we can drink a beer together: If the survey is alright I will buy next week a boat near Trieste, on the Adriatic coast not far from Croatia.

Where are you going to have the boat in Croatia? Probably the boat has already a place but If it is of any use to you, I have already made a search for that and the best place I could find was on the Mandalina Marina, near Sibenick (best price, nice city and the possibility of having the boat on the hard or on the water for almost the same price).

Again, Congratulations and have fun!

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-10-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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  #1967  
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Having been away for most of the time since late December I'm only now catching up with this astonishing thread. How on earth you manage to gather all this material Paulo, is quite beyond me, but kudos to you for doing so and for posting it. Thank you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Thanks mate. Well from sheer frustation of not be able to put my life in order, I mean the boat, the boat project and some things regarding to my professional work. I have been forced to pratically sit still while things come in place. I am an action guy, I have to do something otherwise I got mad so I am been doing this. It is an ocupational therapy as any other.

It seems that in some short time I will be able to go forward with my live and let this thread more to the other posters that have contributed to it, you included

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
I dropped away from this thread (other than as a reader) once we bought our new girl so I understand where you are coming from. Now I'm spending more time out and about and not having spend so much time looking around.

ps - good people you might notice there is a missing link in one of Paulo's posts. For some reason that link seemed to try and hijack the page so I removed it. Apologies if that made the post confusing.
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Hey guys, look at this beauty:



Who would say this is a 33ft boat? And a new brand in this crisis time, one that is not afraid to be different:









The brand is Vector and it is German...but the boats will be made in Poland.

The technical characteristics are very interesting:

"the V10 offers a full epoxy – foam – sandwich hull build in vacuum infusion for light weight, increased rigidity and high durability. This also ensures great value stability.

Special attention has been paid to the design and construction of modern hull lines with orientation on state of the art racing yachts. Her powerful wide transom, the chined Hull and her T shaped keel give the Vector 10 great stability which ensures comfortable fast sailing.

The high stability makes the Vector 10 easy to handle for cruising families or small Crews and will be exhilarating for crews on race courses.

The Vector 10 offers the interior layout of a much bigger Yacht. The composite interior is durable, light and bright.

The interior design of the Vector 10 reflects modern simplicity and has accents that resemble the interior of a luxury private jet. Thanks to the large side windows and the 6 openable flush hatches in the cabin roof, the V10 interior offers plenty of daylight and great ventilation.

The Vector 10 will start at 99.900€ inkl. German VAT of 19%."


LoA
Width 3,30 m/11 ft
Depth 2/1,60 m, 6.6/5.2 ft
Total Weight ca. 3600 kg/ca. 8000 lb
Keel 1400 kg/3086 lb
Mainsail 36 m²/398.5 ft²
Genoa 26 m²/279.9 ft²
Code 0 48 m²/516.7 ft²
Gennaker asym 98 m²/1054.9 ft²
Inboard Motor 16 HP/11,9 kW

I like it, I like the idea, I like the hull and I like the B/D ratio. I am going to follow this one. It seems to be a very interesting project…and the price seems right for an hi-tech epoxy boat
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Old 02-10-2012
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PCP will become famous soon enough
The Vendee Globe is the big Adventure for Professionals, for Amateurs it is the Transquadra.

Look at these guys:

Transquadra 2011


And on this movie from the first leg, France to Madeira, we can appreciate the joy of sailing a light and fast boat day after day on the blue ocean. These guys are having a lot of fun and are really making me envious. I am the only one?



They are on the second leg now, between Madeira and Martinique on their JPK 110, running in 4th and with a good possibility of conquering a podium. Good luck to them
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