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  #11  
Old 03-29-2010
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The Pogo 10.50 i a 35ft and it costs, fully equipped, more than 200 000 euro.

I know that boat is quite the opposite of what you find in the American market. It is very fast, it is basic, but you can cross safely oceans with it and it has plenty of space for a couple.

On Europe in less than a year Pogo have sold 40. That means that around here there are a market for cruisers that would trade a certain kind of comfort, for speed and sail pleasure… the Pogo 10.50 is the boat they favor in this moment (sail boat of the year).

Last edited by PCP; 12-12-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 03-29-2010
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PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
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Old 03-30-2010
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The 10.50 has forced me to go back to work - I just need one!!!

The guys at the shipyard are very nice and welcoming. The boat is beautiful and it just works like a charm. Quite practical & livable as well - just a do it all sailboat that will get you from point A to point B in no time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemier View Post
PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
Having sailed a 109 but only been on the 10.50 here's an initial take. The 109 is a cruiser/racer. The 10.50 is an offshore/cruiser.

The 109 has more creature comforts down under but is more cramped, less airy, and has less stowage and space. Above deck it is really well thought out but the wheel & main track positioning clutters up the latter half of the cockpit. It is a well built boat that is a bit of a do it all design from a pointing perspective. Sails and responds well. Certainly not worth (in my opinion) the premium compared to other boats in the range - SF32, 34.7, Dehler34, etc... 90's design before widespread planing hulls that can point (Finot et al)

The 10.50 is a more spartan environment underdeck but it is pretty open and airy. Decent stowage and although it's not classy, the drawers & lockers just work. The team really applied the KISS principle and although the lack of wood grain & trim may be an initial turn off given the price, there's a lot of smart thinking that's gone into it. Above deck it is a very well laid out cockpit and controls are readily available for singlehanding. Dual tiller opens up the space at anchor and there's room for the whole crew. the boat is very well made - feels rock solid and very well built - easy access to systems and areas of potential repair. Crashbox up front and excellent deck hardware. You can tell from my previous post that I'm a fan. This boat can point and maintain speed and off wind it's a monster! That's the 2 for 1 deal with some of these modern designs vs. the J boats these days. You get it all AND the swing keel to get where the other boats of half the performance can't reach. I see this as the near perfect boat for the sailing crowd that doesn't mind the lack of wood trim and some creature comforts.

I can easily see going on that 3 month family cruise, then a year later doing the ARC, then island hopping on the weekends, then heading off into the yonder for another destination. I'll take the concession of not having woodgrain & felt interiors for a boat that will regularly hit 13-15 kts safely off-wind and open up so many more navigation zones for short trips because of this. That's just me.
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Old 03-30-2010
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Pogo 10.50 / J109

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Originally Posted by nemier View Post
PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
..., I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
Thanks!


Marty is right. Those boats are very different. Th J109 is a great boat, but a boat designed to be competitive in IRC and to be raced with a crew. To go fast upwind The boat really needs the weight of a full crew on the side of the boat and to go really fast downwind it needs weight on the back of the boat (crew) and a very experienced hand at the wheel. It is not a forgiving boat (if sailed on the limit), but it is a boat that is a lot fun to sail, because it is a fast nervous and demanding boat.

Both boats are about the same lenght but the J107 weighs 4,944kg and has a 2.1M draft (deep Keel) with a 3.51M beam and the Pogo weighs 3600kg with a 3.9M beam and a 2.8M draft.
That means that not only the Pogo is a much more stable boat (heels a lot less) as it is also a much lighter boat.

How is that done? Easy, while the J109 design is constrained by the IRC rules (to be racing competitive) the Pogo is designed with pure efficiency in mind (smal crew sailing). It is the offspring of many years of open solo ocean boat’s development from the minis to the open 60’s. The Pogo is lighter because its huge stability comes not only from a much superior form stability (beam) but also because its keel is a lot deeper . To have( a smaller) stability, the J109 with na inferior beam and with a much shorter keel, has to rely on ballast, and lots of it. The boat carries 1769kg ballast, and therefore it is heavier.

Probably both boats will go upwind at the same speed, providing you have the crew sitting on the side of the J109, downwind probably the Pogo will go faster, but that is not the point. The point is that you don’t need a crew to go really fast on the Pogo and that, while on the J109 you need a crew and an experienced wheelman to go at 16k downind, on a Pogo…you can sleep and leave the job to the autopilot. The Pogo is a very forgiving boat that goes fast with little heeling. The J is a nervous boat, (not a forgiving boat if sailed fast) and a boat that is designed to heel a lot while sailing fast.

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/croisiere/feuilletage/307/feuilletage-croisiere-essai-course-croisiere-pogo-10-50-structures-finot-conq
Photos

So, if you want to go club racing around the cans with a full and experienced crew, the J109 is the boat. If you want to cross the Atlantic fast, solo or with a mate, then the Pogo is your boat. Both boats, in their own way are very good fast sailing boats and boats that give a lot of pleasure to sail.

Of course, with the Pogo you can also pull the keel up and go to the beach .

Another diference is that the interior space of the Pogo is much bigger (beam) and also its load capacity and that increases its autonomy.

I leave you with the words of the Designer, Jean Marie Finot, the” father” of the French racing designers and the man that more contributed to the development of the Open solo boats (and its safety) :

“Pogo 10.50 is an offshore-going boat,
able to find shelter in any cove. Designed with simplicity in mind, it is fast and doesn't heel much. It can accomodate a family or a gang of friends. The hull is very wide and stable, with a deep lifting keel. The twin rudders keep control in all conditions.
The balance of the boat is retained under heel, allowing large sails to be carried. Stability and sail area grant high speed in all conditions.
All the lines are led back to the large cockpit. A stowage aft is dedicated to the liferaft.”

The man is now aproaching 70, has designed hundreds of boats, and guess what his personal boat is? A Pogo 10.50, to have fun while cruising with his wife. My kind of sailor .

http://www.finot.com/ecrits/ecritsurg/finotfather.htm
Groupe Finot, Architectes navals

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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  #16  
Old 03-30-2010
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Paulo,

Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................

I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!

Both are beauty's in there own right.

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

If any one of the 4 would show up in my slip to replace my 85 Jeanneau Arcadia, no big deal, I'd be a HAPPY camper......ooops......Sailor!

Marty
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2010
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Sunfast 3200

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................


I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!


Both are beauty's in there own right.

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

Marty
Yes, I agree. The Jeanneau 3200 has a place on this thread.

It is a very interesting boat, it has nothing in common with other jeanneau boats and has a very surprising price, possible because the boat is built by Jeanneau in relatively large numbers. It is also a small fast oceangoing boat, very adapted to solo sailing and designed in the open boat tradition (minis and open 60’s).

I believe it that it is very revealing that both the 10.50 and the 3200 Designers have chosen to buy them as their personal boats. That gives you also an image of the typical French boat designer that, I believe it is different than most boat designers around the world: They love fast sailing boats, have their roots in racing sailing boats, particularly solo and small crew ocean racing sailboats. They are not only designers, but also sailors and it says a lot that both of them think that the most enjoyable boat to cruise is a light fast boat with a light but practical interior.

Daniel Andrieu have designed a lot of racing boats, from Class America boats to the 90’s most popular French monotype, the Jod 35.

AndrieuDesign - Achievements - Sail

I am going to have some days of vacations and I am going to travel, for a week or so, in the UK (Southeast), so I will not be around, but I would like to invite Marty to post on this thread about the Sunfast 3200 and ask BB74 to answer questions or to continue the discussion on the Pogo 10.5. After all it seems he is going to have one, while my wife has threaten me with divorce, if I buy one. He has also been inside one while I have only been inside its big brother, the 40class boat.

Just to open the Sunfast 3200 presentation, some videos about it:

Transquadra - Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 10:29 AM.
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There's a 3 year wait list on the Pogo 10.50 for a reason. Having said that some could be looking to swap options to a later date so last I spoke a 2013 delivery schedule could work... Last I spoke with the builders, there were a few slots late 2013 but that was 2 months ago so you never know...

I've not yet bought one, but my wife is OK with it so once we do the trial by fire with the kids in May on another boat, it may be tough not to write the check... I'll keep you posted.

190K € is a lot of coin but the good thing is with the demand, and the controlled volumes, the resale actually holds very well on these boats. Same can be said for the 8.50, not so much for the Open 40 given it's pure racing focus. Knowing there is a high probability you can sell the boat if the need arises and at a good rate is a comfort vs. ponying up top dollar for more mass market boats that may take a big hit (31.7, 34.7, etc, etc). Overall there will be a premium for usage but I don't think on a 5 year basis it would cost more than a 20K€ difference between going with a 10.50 or a more mainstream boat - that's a reasonable trade off for some to get this type of boat but I freely admit, it's reach for quite a few.
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Old 03-31-2010
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Paulo,

have a good vacation.

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat

This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!

Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......

There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty
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Old 04-01-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Paulo,

have a good vacation.

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat

This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!

Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......

There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty
the new Figaro are really race boats. Undersides are all about carrying extra sails & rigging so I couldn't see refitting for a family type cruise. It's the difference between camping and doing outdoors bivouac if you see what I mean. They are ocean going boats however and work very well. I haven't been on the new model but have been on the previous one. Very technical rigging and you need to tune, tune, tune to get the best out of them.
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