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  #2291  
Old 04-14-2012
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Vor 70

Lots of talk and polemic about the Volvo breakage. The race CEO. Knut Frostad issued a statement about that:

"It's too early to conclude exactly why this has happened but we are obviously concerned about seeing so many incidents of damage to our boats both in this leg and in the race as a whole.

"It is not acceptable that in a race like this we have so many failures. It is not unusual for boats to suffer problems, and sailors and shore teams are used to having to deal with some issues with their boats, but this has been on a bigger scale than in the past.

"It's important that we don't leap to any conclusions about why these breakages have happened. Some of them are clearly not related. However, we will take the current issues into account as we make decisions on rules and technology we will be using in the future.

"We have already put in a lot of work, discussing with teams, designers and all other stakeholders about the boats and the rules we will use in the future, and we expect to be in a position to announce a decision on that before the end of the current race".



The problem seems that decision will be a very polemic one. It seems that there are talks to turn the VOR in a one class race and worst, it seams that there are talks with Farr regarding the design of the boat.

These is not only bad in what regards boat development as it is ugly in what regards the choice of the designer. Since the Farr boats were clearly beaten on last edition the top teams chose JK (the designer of the winning boat of the last edition) to design their boats. It seems rather odd that Farr would be the one chosen to design the one class VOR boat.

There are some implications regarding the work of KJ being responsible for the breakage and that is rather stupid. Boats are built in accordance with a rule and if that rule provides boats not strong enough, what needed to be changed is not the designer but the rule.



Juan Kouyoumdjian felt that regarding those insinuations he should say something and issued an interesting statement:

"With our 3 boats safely in Brazil and under the risk of sounding arrogant, I’ll break away from my golden rule of not speaking until the end of the race to put the record straight since I believe we are presented with an intentional manipulation of the truth.

There is a common, spread notion that ALL the participants of this VOR have structural problems,
that the situation is unacceptable and that something needs to be done for the future. A fundamental distinction needs to be done between the mast breakages and the rest, and whilst I think it is very important to understand what caused so many mast failures, it is a travesty of the truth to put ALL designs in the same basket when it comes down to the “other” structural issues.

This generalization might suit a specific Team, or person to push any agenda he might have for the future, but out of respect of the hard and serious work done with my Team I need to speak up:

In the first edition of the VO70s, we had 2 triumphs to celebrate that as designers we are very proud of. One is obviously that our design was driven to victory by a very good crew and the other one is that our 2 boats [both ABN AMRO] were the only ones that completed the full circumnavigation without major structural problems. This celebration was faded by the public
generalization that because one boat sunk and others had structural failures, then ALL of the boats had problems and the rules had to be changed. Which in fact they did, for the worse!

I didn’t say anything publicly then and moved on. However, seeing the same generalization occurring now, I’d like to stick to the facts and so allow for conclusions to be made without generalizations:

• A VO70 cannot be designed not to break. In fact, any boat in a round the world race cannot be designed not to break. So ultimately, breakages are in the hands of the crew.
• Puma won leg 5 without a major structural problem and this due to the excellence and experience of its crew.
• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.
• Telefonica’s pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.
• Groupama, notwithstanding of an excellent management of the boat during leg 5 to see misfortune hit them with a broken mast, has sailed on her own means to Brazil without structural problems.

So, while we focus in understanding why there have been so many problems with the rigs, I’d beg not to generalize and avoid putting in the same basket the good work and brilliance of some engineers with that of others which are clearly not the same.


Regarding the boats, Puma, Groupama and Telefonica are KJ designs. Abudabi and Sania are Farr designs. Camper was designed by Marcelino Botín.

Regarding this subject the racers also talked about it. The guys from KJ boats had said that they had confidence in their boats and in KJ work.

This is what the Camper guys said:



Last edited by PCP; 04-14-2012 at 03:57 PM.
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  #2292  
Old 04-15-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

On another thread I have made a post regarding a brief compassion between the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau SO 379. I think it will have its place here also.





The Oceanis 37 is probably the best 36/37 cruiser from that market segment regarding the previous generation (I believe the boat is to be substituted very shortly). Several members have them and they have all posted nice things about the boat particularly in what regards speed and safety in downwind sailing. The boat has also a great interior with lots of storage.

There is a significant difference i the price boat (probably because the Beneteau is going to be replaced soon), about 20 K.

The Jeanneau 379 (don't be mislead it is a 36ft boat, the Oceanis is actually bigger) is a boat from the new generation. I never had been inside that one but I suspect I would prefer the Oceanis interior and it seems tome the Oceanis has more storage space.

Regarding sailing the Jeanneau has a performance option (and the Oceanis has not) and regarding the boat with that option I suspect it will make a significant difference to the Oceanis, but then I guess that difference in price will be a lot bigger.

Regarding the standard Jeanneau 379, the Jeanneau is about 200kg heavier, has less tankage (that I think can be increased as an option).

Regarding sailing if we consider the furling option, the Jeanneau has only 62.2m2 comparing with 67.8 from the Oceanis. With a traditional main the Jeanneau has 70m2 of sail. With a traditional main the performance of both boats should be really close if we take into consideration that the Oceanis is slightly lighter.

Regarding righting moment the Oceanis should be a more powerful boat: The draft and ballast are about the same but the Oceanis has a lot more beam ( 3.79 to 3.92) and that will give it a bigger RM. Both boats have modern hulls with the beam brought aft.

The Oceanis will be better downwind and from 60º up but slightly worst in pointing ability and against the wind specially with waves. The rigging is also better on the Jeanneau in what regards pointing with the possibility of a self taking jib that has a better angle. The Oceanis will sail normally with a bit less heel than the SO.

20K is a lot of money but the Oceanis 37 will devalue a lot when a new model appears and that can be this year. If you are going to keep the boat for a long time it is another story and I guess you could even find a better difference in price than the one I was talking about. On the Oceanis and you can add a self taking jib or a small traveler over the cabin (if you buy the boat on a good dealer) for a Jib and that will be very interesting but will cost also some substantial money.

I like the Oceanis 37 and some 3 years ago on a boatshow, attracted by the inexpensive boat price I find a good dealer, one that not only make me a good price on the boat but had also the means and knowledge to, working with the factory in what regards reinforcements and locally in what regards the rest of the work, modify the rigging in accordance with what I wanted: Removable stay sail, additional small travelers on the top of the cabin for a jib, main traveller near the wheel, German sheeting with two additional well sized winches on the cabin and good quality sails. Later he send me the price...well, it was not an inexpensive boat anymore with the additional problem that all those expensive mods would not add any significant value to the boat.







Choosing between the two, start by the interior and storage and if in doubt, just test sail both boats. The feeling at the wheel is something very important and you can only feel that sailing the boat. The boats have a different set up in what regards the wheels: Two on the SO, one on the Oceanis. I would bet that the single wheel on the Oceanis is a lot lighter than the two wheels on the Jeanneau. Making a two wheel sensitive set-up is a lot more expensive than one wheel and normally only more expensive performance boats have sensitive systems installed. Set on the border and see if you can comfortably steer from there. In what regards the Jeanneau I am sure that it is the case. Regarding the Oceanis I don't know if you don't need a bigger wheel.

Don't forget also to compare the price of both boats with the same equipment installed. That can make a big difference in price.

Anyway, two good sailboats

....

Last edited by PCP; 01-13-2014 at 07:08 PM.
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  #2293  
Old 04-15-2012
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Traditional Nordic sailboats:




Last edited by PCP; 04-15-2012 at 11:38 AM.
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  #2294  
Old 04-15-2012
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New boat: Carbonocean yachts:

COMMENTS BY SIMON ROGERS DESIGNER OF THE CARBON82:

The owners brief for the Carbon 82 was clear from the outset: Beautiful lines, around 82 feet offering two modes: ultimate cruising and ultimate racing.

The Carbon 82 has been designed to race under the IRC rule and takes full advantage of RYD’s commitment to the rule, since the early 90s. The recent introduction of the IMAs (International Maxi Association) Cruiser/Racing Class within IRC, has meant that RYD have been able to design a yacht with the two modes which the owner originally specified.

For RYD the greatest design challenge was the optimization of both modes: light for the performance races and the availability of displacement for cruising to ensure the ultimate in luxury comfortable cruising. In the Carbon 82, we believe we have achieved this unique balance.

Always in parallel to the design is the construction and there is little doubt that it had to be of the highest standard and utilize the latest techniques and technologies available. Every individual boat builder now working on the Carbon 82 has had to sign up to the challenges that this new and unique concept presents.

Carbon Ocean Yachts have the unique ingredient of passion and the desire to ensure that ultimately they will produce exactly what the owner first visualized and what the designers have designed. We have little doubt that the Carbon 82 in due course will influence the future design direction in the maxi cruiser/racer class.

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Old 04-15-2012
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Fast guys LOL

And the lighter "boat" won don't miss it, it is going to make you smile

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Old 04-15-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Thanks Smack.

I would be interested in having more feedback about that. I have no problem to scroll the thread and to see the videos on that size, not even on my laptop that has already some years and is not fast. But we have fast internet in Portugal. I have no idea of the average speed among all sailnet users. I know that in Italy is SLOW.

Regarding the videos, I love HD and sharp images and the ones that have problems supporting that quality just have to click on the video and see it on Vimeo or Youtube and there they can change the quality for low resolution.

Anyway if you are not the exception but the rule I can change the settings.
How about give me some feedback about this guys?

Regards

Paulo
I love the HD videos and have no issues loading with my cable modem. Smack, you need to get off dial-up
Best,
Bob
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  #2297  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

This is the Soto 40 designed by Javier Soto, from Argentina. Now is the top racer class in South America. This is a One Design class. The biggest fleet is the Chilean, and this weekend they raced the first part of the South American Championship in Con Con, Chile, next stop will be in Brasil and then in Argentina.


Last edited by DiasDePlaya; 04-15-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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  #2298  
Old 04-16-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

[QUOTE=DiasDePlaya;858980]This is the Soto 40 designed by Javier Soto, from Argentina. Now is the top racer class in South America. This is a One Design class. The biggest fleet is the Chilean, and this weekend they raced the first part of the South American Championship in Con Con, Chile, next stop will be in Brasil and then in Argentina.

Hi!

Yes Soto 40 is one of the most interesting 40ft racers around, fast and inexpensive and Soto Acerbal is one of the best Na around.

Javier Soto Acebal Yacht Design

Some month ago I have made a detailed post on the Soto 40. They are not only popular on SA but in Europe where they race the Audi med cup (Soto 40 and TP 52) and the 2012 European championship will be an international one that counts with a Porthuguese boat.

New faces in the Soto 40 European Championship | Soto40.org

The boat was one of the first to have that inverted hull on the top, a characteristic that I bet we are going to see increasingly in racing boats before passing to performance cruisers. It has some interesting properties, mot only augmenting stability at limit sailing angles but also providing a drier boat.

Some more movies, the first one in Cascais, Portugal, and the second one...well you will see...fast boats...and strong no doubt



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Old 04-16-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Fantastic news on the AC45 America's Cup series: New Italian team, a great name on past editions, Luna Rossa, first race...and an overall victory on the fleet race...Uau!!!

That should bring some more interest to the Cup


Last edited by PCP; 04-16-2012 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You risk ending up liking really modern boats.

Regards

Paulo
You might be suprised to hear, that I actually like some modern designs, I am just not a huge fan of the current crop of production boats that are built with dockside condo ideas, rather than the reality of sailing.
If I could afford it, I would opt for the HR 372 ( which I had the opportunity to sail, and totally impressed me both from the aspect of buildquality and performance.) or the XP 38. I also like your fav, the Salona 38, but found that it was not too far from the HR in price when equipped equally, and they also have no representation in the US (which is supposedly changing soon).
So, then you have a huge $gap down to the Jeanneaus, Beneteaus etc., but after looking closely one finds shortcuts, poor materials and ideas that cut corners in boatbuilding to arrive at the very attractive pricing they offer. Not for me....
There is however one boat, that would work for me on many points, where the euro styling is more subdued , the layout is sensible and the performance is acceptable even for Paulo , well maybe.... The Dehler 35.
Next year, I will not be missing Duesseldorf....
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