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  #2301  
Old 04-16-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
You might be suprised to hear, that I actually like some modern designs, I am just not a huge fan of the current crop of production boats that are built with dockside condo ideas, rather than the reality of sailing.
If I could afford it, I would opt for the HR 372 ( which I had the opportunity to sail, and totally impressed me both from the aspect of buildquality and performance.) or the XP 38. I also like your fav, the Salona 38, but found that it was not too far from the HR in price when equipped equally, and they also have no representation in the US (which is supposedly changing soon).
So, then you have a huge $gap down to the Jeanneaus, Beneteaus etc., but after looking closely one finds shortcuts, poor materials and ideas that cut corners in boatbuilding to arrive at the very attractive pricing they offer. Not for me....
There is however one boat, that would work for me on many points, where the euro styling is more subdued , the layout is sensible and the performance is acceptable even for Paulo , well maybe.... The Dehler 35.
Next year, I will not be missing Duesseldorf....
You are wrong about the Salona 38 price when compared with the HR 372. There is a really big difference.

Regarding the Jeanneaus and company, well they have shortcuts, but if you chose well it will be not in anything fundamental to sailing or safety. I have a friend that says that those boats come not completely finnished, you have to finish them and have work with them...but they are affordable.

Yes the Dehler 35 is a great boat but I think the Salona 35 is better. Regarding the price of Salonas they are slightly below the price of Dehlers (but with better materials), slightly more expensive than the First and almost the same as a Dufour performance...and believe me, I know

You are also wrong about the Salona 38 being my preferred boat. It is my almost affordable boat. I will prefer a XP-38 over the Salona 38, but that is the one that is an almost similar price to a HR 372 that is also a great boat and even if not as fast as a Salona or a XP, it is surprisingly fast.

Tell me when you go to Dusseldorf and if we meet the beer is on me.

Some images of a XP38 racing:



And the same race aboard a A31:



And aboard a Swan 42:


Last edited by PCP; 04-16-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Paulo, thanks for really interesting article. Probably you have already seen, but I will post for everyone interested
Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | The big debate - skippers comment on Leg 5 attrition

Few days ago Maxi11 "reborn" as Project11 and several new renderings published. Looks like a dead cat bounce


After all we were wrong, or at least I think so!!! This beauty is probably going to be built and Maxi is going to reborn. Maxy yacht was bought by DELPHIA. The humble ones are buying the rich ones

Regards

Paulo
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  #2303  
Old 04-16-2012
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Speed sailing:

I have already posted about the DCNS the new Hydroptere project an incredibly beautiful sailing boat, at least to my eyes.
Now some more images in a movie and as a bonus, the Hydroptere story:


Last edited by PCP; 01-13-2014 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 04-17-2012
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Classic Yachts:

Sincerity designed and built by Cantieri Baglietto in Italy, 1928:

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

You will find further information and pictures at the website of the german offshore owner association:
Hochseesegelszene
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Old 04-17-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You are wrong about the Salona 38 price when compared with the HR 372. There is a really big difference.


Yes the Dehler 35 is a great boat but I think the Salona 35 is better. Regarding the price of Salonas they are slightly below the price of Dehlers (but with better materials), slightly more expensive than the First and almost the same as a Dufour performance...and believe me, I know


Tell me when you go to Dusseldorf and if we meet the beer is on me.
About the price differrence: I come up with around 185000 E for the Salona and about 235000 E for the HR 372, same equipm. both commissioned at the yard. Yes there maybe about 50k E differrence , but when it comes to resale, the HR will retain its value better than a Salona, at least in the US.
I will take a close look at the Salona models in Duesseldorf next year, they have a lot of features I find positive, SS hull reinforcements, etc.
I will definetly take you up on the beer. Sounds like the trip is almost going to pay for itself in beer...
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Old 04-17-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Genthe View Post
You will find further information and pictures at the website of the german offshore owner association:
Hochseesegelszene
Thanks for posting and please keep us informed about future Programs

It seems that I was translating what had already been translated, or worst what was originally in English.

Regarding the 2nd International Yacht Forum (2011) I will post some parts that seem more relevant to me (full text on the link), particularly about a very hot theme: A single handicap rating.

..
One Word, one Rule!

Bruno Finzi (IT), chairman of the ORC (Offshore Racing Congress) affirmed in his speech the intention to unite the organizations behind the formulas ORC and IRC to one single association. After DSV measurer Kay-Enno Brink had explained the technical basis of the ORC formula, IRC master measurer James Dadd presented the background of the IRC formula. Kasper Wedersoe from Danmark introduced the advantages of the Dansk Handicap: Thanks to simple systems and cheap fares, there are quite a few regattas in Danmark which are raced by more boats than there are ORC measuring certificates in whole Germany.

Via video broadcast, Christian Schaumloeffel from the US (it was 6 a.m. in Virginia) introduced the American way: more than 10.000 yachts are sailing the formula PHRF on the american continent. Pelle Lindell reported via skype from Sweden, that there could be found race fields with up to 1000 boats due to the simple SRS formula.

Tension rose when it came to the questioning of the time takers. Friedrich Hausmann, vice chairman of the German Offshore Owners Association wanted to know what yacht owners and sailors really require from a formula. „Would you like a unified measuring formula for races all over the world?“ Nearly 100 percent of the participants spontaneously answered with „yes“.

The question whether there should be a new measuring formula did not receive much acceptance: only one-fourth of the participants agreed. The question whether the formula should contain empiric data as well lead to a stand-off situation: about half of the participants lifted their hands. Should the measuring formula contain aspects to protect existing fleeds? This question led to an inconsistent picture, but the majority (about two thirds of the participants) agreed. Cheerfulness and unanimous one hundred percent agreement for the the last question: Should a measuring certificate cost lest than 50 Euros? Opinion: “Yes!”


Race sailing trends, up-to-date: International Yacht Forum sets standards

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-17-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 04-17-2012
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Orci

Regarding the subject of the last post, one universal racing handicap rule, I guess that an overview is in order, especially in what concerns ORCI. I Think I have already talked about the World ORCI 2012 championship that this year is raced in Helsinki:

Audi ORC International World Championship 2012

Lots of teams there but pretty lame yet for a world championship that should not be a semi-amateur, or semi-professional thing, with a vast majority of teams from the region where it is disputed. I hope this is just the beginning of a Universal handicap rule and the beginning of a truly world professional championship.

The ORCI history:

In January, 1976 the Offshore Committee of US Sailing adopted a resolution calling for the development of a new "Handicapping System" to take its place alongside the IOR for those yachtsmen who "prefer a 'handicap' rule as opposed to a 'design' rule."

This system was developed in a response to the mandate of that resolution, and was then called the Measurement Handicap System or MHS. The name was intended to suggest that it is a formula based on measurement of physical characteristics rather than observed racing performance of yachts and that it is of the handicap type as distinguished from the design or development type.

The intent of the system as set down before starting the development work may be summarised as follows:

• Weigh each factor used in the formulae to accord with its effect on speed
• Reduce obsolescence caused by the design of yachts which beat a rule and thereby render older yachts not competitive
• Devise a system which is designer-proof in the inception if possible, but by correction as this proves necessary
• Provide fair time allowance for yachts of the dual-purpose type (for cruising and racing). It is intended that production yachts of good design should be able to compete with custom yachts.

The system was based on the research at MIT of the H. Irving Pratt Ocean Race Handicapping Project and started with the development of a hull measuring device making it possible to acquire a large number of points and so be able to use integrated parameters instead of the single point measurements.

The major part of this research was the development of a Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) based on the data obtained towing in the tank a series of hull forms systematically modified to test the effects on speed of the performance parameters. This important task was contributed by Delft University in the Netherlands.

The measurement platform adopted was the same as IOR, to enable an easy conversion into the new system of the thousands of boats already measured under the International Offshore Rule that was launched in 1970, and was the very reason for the foundation of the ORC. In 1985 the MHS was converted into an International System, renamed IMS and adopted by the ORC for international use.

Work has continued on refining the speed predictive formulae and on the best means of deriving time allowance based on speed predictions, work largely made possible by the contributions of designers and technologists in the International Technical Committee (ITC) and yachtsmen from many countries.

In January 2008, a new VPP running ORC International and ORC Club rating systems was launched using the measurement platform of the IMS, and the best elements of its VPP, but has been revised to reflect more accurately the performance characteristics of the most modern designs.

IMS – the International Measurement System – is the world’s most sophisticated and thorough system of measurement devised to provide the necessary data for determining a boat’s theoretical performance potential. The system includes a description of measurement principles and procedures for determining the dimensions of a boat’s hull form, appendages, propeller, stability, sails and spars, as well as minimum standards of accommodation and equipment placement consistent with accepted principles and practices of inshore and offshore racing. In an attempt to better meet the needs of regatta organizers, Racing division and Racer/cruiser division yachts are also defined using the IMS.

The roots of the ORC International handicap (ORCI) rule lie in the history of the International Measurement System (IMS), ... Suffice to say, it is the handicap rule of choice where the highest standards of objectivity, scientific accuracy, international application, and flexible scoring options are desired by race organizers. No other rating rule in the world today can match these features.

ORC International will continue to use the IMS platform of multiple modules from measurement to scoring. Boats required to have ORC International certificates will have to be measured using all the criteria listed in IMS.

However, the software for the most important part - the Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) - has been completely rewritten, with major functions reviewed and recent submissions and research results implemented to produce a more powerful and flexible software package. As more data is reviewed and tested, and as the sport evolves in its technological development, ORC International will also evolve to maintain its standards of accuracy and fairness.

As such, this is the most sophisticated and modern VPP-based rating product available in the world today, and is intended for use at championship-level events where the highest standards of accuracy are desired to produce the best results.

ORC will continue to offer ORC Club as an inexpensive and simplified rule, having the same VPP processor as ORC International, but with simpler measurement procedures and automated web-based forms. The ORC Offshore World and European Championships will be raced under the ORC International rule, as will many other top-level national and international races and regattas throughout the world.
…..
No rating system before ORC International has taken into account the varied performance characteristics found between boats. ORC International ratings are a total of ratings for various conditions: wind strength of 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 and 20 knots, direction of true wind from the close-hauled to 52, 60, 75, 90, 110, 120, 135, 150 and 180 degrees. With this data it is possible to establish a polar diagram that shows the speed of the boat in relation to wind strength and its direction. …

The computer program that produces polar diagrams consists of two parts: LPP (Lines processing program) and VPP (Velocity prediction program). LPP calculates hydrostatic data, like wetted surface, displacement and stability. These are necessary inputs for the VPP program which creates a computer simulation of the boat’s performance based on scientific research of boat hulls in hydrodynamic basins, sails in aerodynamic tunnels and measurements taken on real boats.

Hull resistance is calculated in sailing trim with the total crew weight and equipment onboard for various angles of inclination and wind strength. Forces that propel and heel the boat are calculated for all possible combinations of sails, along with a choice of the optimal combination for the given conditions.
ORC International certificates have quite a large amount of data that allows for several ways to calculate corrected times, including simple scoring options with just one, two or three scoring coefficients.

What makes ORC International unique from other rating systems is that it allows for different ratings in a race depending on weather conditions and the course type, thereby producing more accurate ratings. Thus a heavy boat with smaller sail area will be rated as slow in light winds, but will be faster in stronger winds; boats with deep keels will be rated fast upwind, just as light boats with smaller keels will be rated fast downwind….

the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) recognizes only ORC International as the rating system to be used for offshore World Championships. At the conclusion of its 38th Annual General Meeting in Estoril, Portugal 2007 the Offshore Racing Congress has accepted ORC International, VPP-based rating rule that replace IMS as a rating rule, which became a measurement system only.

The sole authority for the ORC Rating System is the Offshore Racing Congress and the Rule shall be maintained and administered at ORC discretion.


ORC Offshore Racing Congress - World leader in rating technology

.....

Last edited by PCP; 04-17-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  #2309  
Old 04-17-2012
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Radical sailing:

and a movie with some sailors that are not afraid of breakers

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Old 04-18-2012
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Traditional Nordic boats:

Sailing the north sea from Petter W. Sele on Vimeo.

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