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  #2311  
Old 04-19-2012
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Learning to sail

In Russia...if not at least the guys drink Vodka

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  #2312  
Old 04-20-2012
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Sydney GTS 43

So no photos yet of the smaller 37, but the big sister the 43 is already on the water winning races and I don't mean on its class, but overall.

Jason Ker the designer is one of my preferred. I guess that if I was rich it would be to him that I would ask to design my boat. It is one of the designers that refuses to make slower boats to adapt better to handicap rules and win more easily. His boats when they win arrive first and just look at his list of recent victories:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

Its even more impressive if we consider that there are very few Ker designed boats around, if compared with others.

besides the Sydney 43 is a beautiful boat:











Ker says about it:

Fast, easy to handle, stable and spacious, the Sydney GTS43 serves as a comfortable cruiser, short- handed family weekender and competitive IRC racer. Our design for the GTS 43 delivers a yacht that is light yet strong, easy to sail yet seriously fast, stylish yet functional, and above all else, seaworthy.

Capable of competitive racing at both club and regatta level, this 43-footer can also be easily managed when racing short-handed or when cruising. With its non- overlapping headsail for ease of tacking and an asymmetrical spinnaker, the Sydney GTS43 can be sailed to its full potential without the need for a large and experienced crew.

Its low vertical centre of gravity coupled with its generous sail area to displacement provides great handling and performance.

With accommodation for up to six guests, the Sydney GTS43 has a surprising amount of room. Above deck, the large open transom cockpit provides ease of movement and comfort whether racing, cruising or entertaining, while below deck its roomy interior is contemporary by design and easy to maintain. Large coach house windows provide an abundance of natural light and a greater feeling of size.


The boat is light with 6950kg specially if we consider that Ker boats normaly have a ballast ratio of about 40%. That with a 2.75m draft and a torpedo keel will give it a massive stability helped by a hull that without beam beamy by modern standards is not narrow. The boat has the beam pulled aft and that should contribute not only to stability but for ease of handling downwind.

Of course, 2.75m is a lot of draft but last year I cruised with one sailboat with similar draft and was surprised not being too much penalized by it in what regards cruising. Of course it all depends of the cruising grounds, but to sail offshore....what a boat

Some images of one racing (walalla). Boat out of the box, first race, second in real time, second overall.

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  #2313  
Old 04-20-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Very interesting photo of the boat that won the last Transat for 40class racing boats, the boat that G1000 posted while I was doing this post.



Looking at this photo we can see clearly how this hull "works" and the advantages of this type of transom/hull design:

Marked by the water, at black, we can see the more usual hull sailing position that is not very different in shape to the one of a more classical boat, offering little drag.

When the boat goes to the heeling max position (like it is now) it is offered to the water a completely flat horizontal surface that provides a huge resistance to more heel, adding a lot to RM. On a classical boat at this heeling angle the surface offered is a curved one that will not offer any considerable resistance to heeling.

On bigger hell angles we are not sailing anymore, at least in a effective way, but trying to bring the boat up and on these big heeling angles form stability counts not for much. A class40 or a more classical boat will work the same way and it will count on ballast and draft (low CG) to right the boat up.

Some has a idea that a open boat has a huge form stability but a bad reserve stability or a big inverted stability. That is not true. The boat has a huge form stability a very good reserve stability and the proportion between positive stability and the inverted stability is very good by any standards.

Here the stability curve of a Pogo class40: Big AVS, big relation between the positive part of the curve (positive stability) and the negative part (inverted stability) and an overall massive static stability for a 40ft.



Compare that with the typical stability curve of an half-tonner, a popular old offshore racing boat that many consider very seaworthy:



It is also a GZ curve but in Ft while the one from the Pogo is in m. To roughly convert divide the values of the Half-tonner curve by 3.

Both boats have a not very different displacement (3.500kg to about 4000/4500g for a 40class boat).

To join to that very good Pogo static stability the boat has an even better dynamic stability related with its low mass, beam and small underwater area that makes him able to dissipate the energy of a breaking wave with kinetic movement (lateral and rotating on a vertical axis) other than a rotational movement.

These two characteristics make this light boat unusually seaworthy and capable of racing on the sea is really mean, in high latitudes.

Especially for Eric I will post the stability curve of his new boat, the cruising version of a Pogo Class40, the Pogo 12.50:



First an advertency, the Pogo Class40 curve is a GZ curve (length of arm) and this one is a RM curve. To pass from this one to the first one you have to divide each value by the light weight of the Pogo 12.50.

As you can see both curves are not very different and your boat has also a good AVS but most of all a massif righting moment at 90º of heel and a very good relation between the positive stability and the negative stability.

With this information you learn that with the keel up the boat has an AVS of about 100º and you have plenty of positive stability. This means that in settle weather and light winds you can perfectly sail the boat safely in shallow waters. In fact the positive stability of the boat with the keel up is bigger than some of the boats that have capsized on the 1979 Fastnet.

Regards

Paulo
I said this already before: there’s very little to look forward to at the end of a nice sailing holiday, except catching up with this excellent thread. Thanks again guys, for a few hours of wonderful video’s and very interesting opnions.

Paulo, if had known you were in Combrit two weeks ago (Pogo 50 pictures), I would certainly have picked you up to welcome you aboard our TriMen. then afloat in Ste-Marine to work out the last details. I very much regret we missed this opportunity to meet you in person and may be even have a spin with the boat together…

Last week we sailed the boat over to Nieuwpoort, which was a cold but nice and very valuable experience. I will be happy to discuss this in more detail later, but the bottom line is: the boat dislikes pointing or sailing dead downwind, keeping up the speed is the issue and then the VMG is always very correct. It is quite a different way of sailing compared to more traditional designs.

I mentioned before the statement of an experienced class 40 sailor: it’s just like a big 470 dinghy. I’ve been sailing a 470 for almost 30 years and could not agree more. “Sail the boat under the mast” and first try to build up the apparent wind. Then you get exhilarating sailing everywhere between a close and a broad reach.

Thanks a lot again for your thorough stability analysis of these “open 40” type of designs. Our first experience shows you are once again right on top.

The initial (form) stability is as spectacular as the 4m50 wide (and honestly quite disgraceful) beam. Even with myself and my two basketball centre players of sons on the same side, the boat hardly moves.

Under sail, more than 20° of heel only slows the boat down. But before you get there, you have already enjoyed the enormous power of both the hull (form stability) and the 3m deep, leaded keel (weight stability).

Between l’Aber Wrach (North Brittany) and Cowes we kept all the sail (full main + solent) up in 25 knts on a broad reach. With nice, long, 3m high waves and gusts up to 35 knts the average speed was around 14 knts with some wonderful long and thrilling surfs up to 21 knts, without ever feeling out of control.

So our first experience after 450 NM with the 12.50 is: WYSIWYG.
A big 470 with visually basic, but functional and in fact quite comfortable accommodation for our crew of 6.

It is very reassuring to know that this is also a very safe design, thanks a lot Paulo!
I wouldn’t really dare to sail it with the keel up, not because of stability but because this makes the boat behave like a lightweight long-keeler. This is indeed a very unnatural and inefficient configuration, as we experienced when manoeuvring in windy conditions. Long live the bow thruster!

Best regards,

Eric
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  #2314  
Old 04-20-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
...
..

Between l’Aber Wrach (North Brittany) and Cowes we kept all the sail (full main + solent) up in 25 knts on a broad reach. With nice, long, 3m high waves and gusts up to 35 knts the average speed was around 14 knts with some wonderful long and thrilling surfs up to 21 knts, without ever feeling out of control.

.....
I wouldn’t really dare to sail it with the keel up, not because of stability but because this makes the boat behave like a lightweight long-keeler. This is indeed a very unnatural and inefficient configuration, as we experienced when manoeuvring in windy conditions. Long live the bow thruster!

..
Eric, on the first sail 21K I needed 4 years to sail the Bavaria 36 at 11K

Where are the photos?

A double congratulation to you and many of those hours of sailing pleasure with your boat.

Regarding sailing the boat with the keel up, I am sure I am right and I mean just bringing the boat to the marina or passing shallow waters. You can do it safely with light winds or with the boat reefed. No need to turn the engine on.

Think: even with the keel up the boat will come back for 90º of heel. You that are used to sail a dinghy will not be able to let go the sails if the boat heels more than 45º?

Regards

Paulo
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  #2315  
Old 04-20-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Eric, on the first sail 21K I needed 4 years to sail the Bavaria 36 at 11K

Where are the photos?

A double congratulation to you and many of those hours of sailing pleasure with your boat.

Regarding sailing the boat with the keel up, I am sure I am right and I mean just bringing the boat to the marina or passing shallow waters. You can do it safely with light winds or with the boat reefed. No need to turn the engine on.

Think: even with the keel up the boat will come back for 90º of heel. You that are used to sail a dinghy will not be able to let go the sails if the boat heels more than 45º?

Regards

Paulo
It was a lot of fun indeed, Paulo. Many thanks for your kind wishes, I hope we will once be able to welcome you on board .

I will post some pictures as soon as I have sorted them out and may be even some video, if I ever succeed to edit the footage in a decent way .

I'm very confident about the stability even with the keel up, especially after seeing the curves. But I only think we would then need some room in order to to avoid unwanted speering with the bowsprit .

Best regards,

Eric
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  #2316  
Old 04-20-2012
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Ker 37

and while waiting for Eric's movies and sice we were talking about Ker designed boats (Sydney 37 and 43) let's have a look at a Ker 37:

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  #2317  
Old 04-20-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Remember this boat:





That's the Fox 10.20 from Adrien and Capucine, the freshly married couple that was making a circumnavigation in a small light boat. Adrien had posted here after crossing the Atlantic at almost race speed but after that... nada.

They did not actualize their site so I guessed that they had abandoned the project. Well it seems that is nothing like that but that they have had something better to do than posting on internet.

I say that because I just saw a photo of Groupama when he was in Auckland and guess what was the boat that was sailing behind? Yes, Capado, Adrien’s boat. That photo was almost taken a month ago so, I guess they are coming home right now, half a voyage already completed.
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  #2318  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Do you know the meaning of "Capado" in Spanish? Is not a good name for sure.
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  #2319  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
It was a lot of fun indeed, Paulo. Many thanks for your kind wishes, I hope we will once be able to welcome you on board .

I will post some pictures as soon as I have sorted them out and may be even some video, if I ever succeed to edit the footage in a decent way .

I'm very confident about the stability even with the keel up, especially after seeing the curves. But I only think we would then need some room in order to to avoid unwanted speering with the bowsprit .

Best regards,

Eric
Eric,

For sure I want to see your pics!
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  #2320  
Old 04-21-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats



I do.
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Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
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