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post #2441 of 6763 Old 05-08-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: JPK 38FC

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Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Hi Paulo,

...
Do you think the JPK 38 will have somewhat equal performance as the Pogo 12.50? It only has 80 sqm of upwind sailarea, compared to the Pogos 107 or so sqm, and it weighs almost the same.

The reason why I have been following this thread is that I´m looking for a new boat for me and my family. We have two young boys and therefore I´m looking for a boat that is stable and easy to single hand. The area where we spend most of our time on the water is characterized by mostly light winds (5-15 knots), flat water, shallow harbours and lots of small islands with tight passages.

I have previously owned 2 trimarans and before that I have been in the world of keelboats with my parents. I´m a bit hooked on multihulls due to speed and stability but my mind is open for keelboats as well, if I can find one that can be very fast with relatively little effort put in to it! The mrs always reminds me that a multihull can capsize, even though I try to convince her it won´t. I have had my eyes on the Pogo 12.50 and JPK 38, but they are imho a little bit too big for us. I was thinking max 35 feet. It´s a shame that the Pogo 10.50 isn´t as modern design as the 12.50 and the JPK.

Any other suggestions?!

Kind regards,
Mr W
I don't think the Pogo 10.50 is dated and if you like the interior you should consider it. The Pogo 12,50 is much bigger than the JPK 38 and overall will be more fast but only if you have someone to help sailing it or if you are a hell of a sailor, kind a professional racer.

The JPK 38 will be easier to sail and a “normal” good level sailor will probably be more able to exploit the boat solo compared with the Pogo 12.50. The JPK is also a better all around boat, better upwind and will probably have a more comfortable sea motion in waves.

Regarding speed a Trimaran will always be faster except in bad weather.

Remember this kind of boats are designed to be easy to sail, very fast downwind but regarding all around absolute performance a light narrower boat with lots of ballast will be faster. The problem is that such a boat will not only be more nervous but also more expensive to built and will have normally a big draft.

Regarding other boats, why not the Malango 999. I have posted about it already. It certainly is a fast and interesting boat with a great interior.






idbmarine chantier de construction naval du voilier Malango

Regards

Paulo
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post #2442 of 6763 Old 05-08-2012 Thread Starter
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New boat: RM 1260

The boat is on the water. First photos from a test that will be published soon on Yacht magazine. The boat looks huge for a 40ft and the interior space is…big.















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post #2443 of 6763 Old 05-09-2012
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Re: JPK 38FC

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I don't think the Pogo 10.50 is dated and if you like the interior you should consider it.
You´re right Paulo, it´s not that old. But I imagine that the 12,50 and JPK will have a much better form stability due to the chined hulls and should also therefore be able to carry more sail. I might think to much of chined hulls though.

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Remember this kind of boats are designed to be easy to sail, very fast downwind but regarding all around absolute performance a light narrower boat with lots of ballast will be faster.
It has been pointed out that the Pogo 30 might start planing at TWA 60-65, which would make that boat a rather good allround boat for me. If it does this, I don´t really care that it´s not the best upwind boat of this size The swing keel with depth between 0,95-2,40 is really appealing too. You can reach some really shallow waters with it! I wonder if Structures would consider building an all carbon Pogo 30, that would really do it...

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Regarding other boats, why not the Malango 999. I have posted about it already. It certainly is a fast and interesting boat with a great interior.
Thanks Paulo, I haven´t seen this boat yet!

My best alternative when it comes to trimarans is the Dragonfly 32, which I don´t believe you have mentioned earlier in this thread? The first boat should be finished later this month, I really look forward to it!



I saw that you posted the video of the Dragonfly 28 a few days ago. I went on a sail on just that boat this weekend and I must tell you I´m allways suprised by the speed of those boats! We had 6-8 knots of wind with 10 knots gusts. We maxed out at 10 knots boat speed that day. Nice!

//Mr W
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post #2444 of 6763 Old 05-09-2012 Thread Starter
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Vor 70

Easy sailing till the finish line. Puma is going to win and deserve it. They never give a chance to Camper on all those hours of difficult navigation. Well done guys!!!

Groupama had done what I was anticipating: They just risked going on the other side of Cat Island in an attempt to catch Camper and Telefonica, that had nothing to lose, just went to the other side to see if it could get any gains.

On the map it showed more wind on the Groupama side but in reality there was more wind on Telefonica side and if Telefonica had not chosed wrongly, going too far away from land, it would have overtaken Groupama. As it is both boats are very close and there will be a fight till the end. Telefonica had showed that with weak to medium winds can go slightly faster than Groupama so it will be really interesting.

Volvo Ocean Race 2011-2012 | Race Data Center

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Re: Vor 70

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Easy sailing till the finish line. Puma is going to win and deserve it. They never give a chance to Camper on all those hours of difficult navigation. Well done guys!!!
Looks like a done deal, but it isn't over yet. Theoretically Camper can still catch up. They would have to do roughly 3 kt more than Puma. Camper are doing around 1.7kt. (avg) more than Puma, right now actually 4kt. Who knows, if they navigate the Gulf Stream eddies to their advantage, that race could still be up for grabs. It isn't over until they pass the finish.....
A 40kt northerly would liven things up in the stream, but not today...
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post #2446 of 6763 Old 05-09-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....

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post #2447 of 6763 Old 05-09-2012 Thread Starter
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Two different types of hulls:

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....

Here you have three examples of the last boats designed by ker, the 46 still in project, the 40 and the 43:







Yes you are right and the Ker are among the fastest if not the fastest boats of their size. But there is an easy explanation for the different type of hulls:

Ker designed boats are narrower and have about 50% of ballast ratio on a deep bulb. To take all advantage of the generated righting moment upwind the boat needs to heel a lot. The hulls are adapted for that and at the optimum heeling angle will have an almost flat surface on the water.

If you take a look at the photo you have posted (and the others) you will see that when the hull is all heeled the Ker will be going laterally over an almost flat surface that will provide a big hull righting moment. That will happens at an high heeling angle and it is its optimum sailing position upwind.

On a boat like the JPK or an Open 60 the proportion of ballast ratio is not so big, the boat can be lighter and upwind the importance of the ballast in the generated righting moment is not so important so the boat don't need to hell so much and the chines serves to limit the heeling to the optimal angle, that is remarkably less than on a Ker, and to provide there the same effect (maximized hull righting moment) that is obtained with the KER hull on the side over the water at an higher heel angle. I mean, the Open type boat will also be sailing over a flat surface at its optimum heel angle, but that angle is a lot smaller than the one on the Ker.

Upwind, the Ker design is more efficient but upwind it needs a good crew to maintain the boat on its tracks. While a solo type hull boat like the one on the Pogo 12.50 will limit (trough the chine) the heeling the boat can have going downwind (while rolling) to a small quantity a Ker will only have a hull brake to that limit at high angles of heel.

That's why it makes sense to use a hull with chines on a cruising boat (and the shape of hull it is associated with it) because it makes the boat much more easily controlled downwind, permitting the use of an autopilot even going fast and gives a boat that heels a lot less. And I am not talking only about performance boats, you can see this type of hull on most of the modern production cruisers.



That is also why this is the type the hull used on racing solo boats (more easy to exploit the boat). As I have said many times, a Ker will be overall faster than a racing solo type boat, but a solo racer will not be able to race a ker solo at least exploiting it in a way that can be faster than a dedicated solo racer.

Two ways of making fast boats, with advantages and disadvantages.

One of the disadvantages that I have not mentioned yet is price. I mean for a Ker type of boat, the huge righting moment generated by the big ballast on the end of a big draft puts huge strains on the hull, much more than if the same righting moment is obtained mostly through beam. That makes for a considerably more expensive boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-09-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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post #2448 of 6763 Old 05-09-2012 Thread Starter
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Vor

And that's a fact: Puma won this leg while Groupama has managed to maintain Telefonica at some distance and I guess it will have no trouble making it to 3th place.

This way the overall classification is becoming more even and that only makes the race more interesting. It is also good for the sport that Puma won in America. Let's see if that helps sail ocean racing popularity in the USA.
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post #2449 of 6763 Old 05-09-2012
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Re: JPK 38FC

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Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
I have been looking at the Pogo 30 as well, I guess I have to wait until it´s finished. On the pictures it appears to lack cockpit backrests, which might be a safety concern with the kids. But they are nice boats, aren´t they!

I hope Eric will share some more experiences from the 12.50. I´d be really interested in how the boat performes in flat water and at what windspeeds it will start planing without the help of surfing.

Kind regards,
Mr W

If any boat would collapse as quickly as any PC crashes, there would be no more boatyards. But since I much prefer a world without PC’s than one without boats, I’m still very happy . Really sorry about the pictures and the video delay, I will post them as soon as I have a well configured and sufficiently performing PC again. And a good YouTube coach .

Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
This confirms my overall impression that the profile of this first JPK cruiser is more towards Malango and even RM than Pogo. With an “American style” longitudinal kitchen, more cosy interior design, panoramic roof windows, lower S/D ratio and less powerful hull, everything else also points this way.

If you’re seeking a multihull-like performance and the advantages of a monohull, I’m afraid you will need both a Bénéteau Sense (catamaran feeling at anchor or in port) and a Pogo-like design (multihull feeling when sailing). Concerning speed almost any trimaran will fly by almost any comparable monohull, but concerning comfort the difference will be as huge in the other way.

Since you are looking for a compromise (aren’t we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.

We don’t, because our sailing area is the English Channel and the North Sea, where choppy seas and very variable wind conditions prevail. Nevertheless, we are very happy with the Pogo 12.50.

Of course it doesn’t like to be sailed close hauled, but a little bearing down is sufficient to make everything quite comfortable and with a very correct VMG, even in strong wind-upon current conditions.
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.

And, once again, anything from a close to a broad reach is very rewarding.
With as little as 12 knots of true wind you can start playing the game: pointing a little to build up apparent wind speed, and then bearing down the minimum to hold on to a good apparent wind angle and keep on planing.
With following 3m seas it was quite easy to surf above 20 knots. But the next weekend we were again in full planing mode, in comparable wind conditions and at a top speed of 18 knots. Without waves to surf on, since this time the swell was only 1m and coming ahead.

I agree with Paulo that this kind of sailing demands some feeling, both at the helm and at the traveller. Especially the big fat-headed mainsail is very sensible, but also very rewarding to trim. With a well-designed deck lay-out and high-spec hardware this is quite an easy job.

Although we are basically dinghy sailors, we don’t think the 12.50 demands anything but good basic sailing skills. Even pushed, the boat never felt out of control and even in 40+ gusts everything always kept perfectly manageable. So I don’t think she could not also be easily sailed short- or even single handed, although I prefer a little more training before trying this myself. But I certainly will do, knowing this is what Pogo’s are basically designed for.

After trying the 10.50 for one week and now having the 12.50 for four weeks I once again agree with Paulo that both are very similar in character. The 12.50 is a cruising version of their latest open 40 class racer while the 10.50 has been specifically designed as a performance cruiser, so the 12.50 is somewhat more powerful. But let there be no doubt, the 10.50 is also a very exciting boat!

In my honest opinion, the difference is mainly about size, especially inside. More space, more headroom and most importantly a whole lot more capacity to carry the extra weight for all our cruising gear, without compromising performance too much because of a lot of extra available volume.

Otherwise the design is very similar, with a quite basic looking but in fact very practical interior for both the 10.50 and 12.50. “De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum” but in both cases it works very well.
At least once you’ve accepted boats don’t necessarily have to look like a Swiss chalet and that the absence of counter mouldings is in fact very handy for both cleaning and maintenance,

All these pro's and con's are evenly valuable for the forthcoming and much awaited Pogo 30 and I also refer to Paulo's recent post. His comments about boat design and architecture are always a delight.

So once again, it is all about compromises and making the right choices.
For myself and after a first 800 NM in very different conditions, I have no more doubt about both the performance, comfort and security of this kind of boat. But “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”, so first try for yourself!

Best regards,

Eric
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Jpk 38

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....
Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
This confirms my overall impression that the profile of this first JPK cruiser is more towards Malango and even RM than Pogo. With an “American style” longitudinal kitchen, more cosy interior design, panoramic roof windows, lower S/D ratio and less powerful hull, everything else also points this way.
Hi Erick , I see that you are having a lot of fun with your boat. I envy you

Sure the JPK is a boat different from the Pogo, less a downwind boat but a better upwind boat. Yes, the interior space kind of remembers the RM and it has a more cozy and full of light interior, but take a look at the shape of the hull:





If we were looking in 3d the difference would be bigger. The JPK is a much sharper boat with much finer entries.

The Pogo and the RM have about the same ballast ratio (about 0.33/0.34) one substantially smaller than the JPK one (0.38).

Different boats: the JPK has less beam but more ballast, a different balance.

It has not so much sail but because it has less beam it needs less sail for the same speed.

I agree with you that downwind or in a broad reach the Pogo will be faster even if it was not a bigger boat but upwind with waves I have my doubts. It is possible that the extra length can compensate the lesser efficiency but if both boats had the same size I am pretty sure the JPK would be faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
We don’t, because our sailing area is the English Channel and the North Sea, where choppy seas and very variable wind conditions prevail. …
Of course it doesn’t like to be sailed close hauled, but a little bearing down is sufficient to make everything quite comfortable and with a very correct VMG, even in strong wind-upon current conditions.
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.
Yes, the Pogo is a fast boat even upwind but we have to put it in perspective: Downwind it is a very difficult boat to beat and to beat it with another boat of the same size you probably need a crew. Solo sailed it is the kind of hull shape that offers the best performance but it is convenient to remember that upwind in choppy seas not even a Pogo 40 class racer, that is lighter has more sail and liquid ballast, is a match for a top First 40 or a similar boat.

The evidence is there in the results of many races and I have been collecting it to understand better how different hull shapes perform in different conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Since you are looking for a compromise (aren’t we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.
Yes, I certainly agree with that.


I will point out that these boats to be fast have to have not much charge. A Pogo 30 to be fast will have to be light.

If you put a family inside with the water and provisions to cruise…well, I would say that it is a boat for two with a very Spartan way of live, at least to be sailed the way it is designed for. For a family and to go faster chose a bigger boat, a Pogo 10.50 or the JPK 38.

I would say that the JPK 38 is a better offshore boat but if you don’t need it and are going to use it on the conditions that Erick described, maybe the Pogo 10.50 would be a more fun boat to sail. I would try both anyway.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-09-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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