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  #2451  
Old 05-09-2012
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Vor 70

Easy sailing till the finish line. Puma is going to win and deserve it. They never give a chance to Camper on all those hours of difficult navigation. Well done guys!!!

Groupama had done what I was anticipating: They just risked going on the other side of Cat Island in an attempt to catch Camper and Telefonica, that had nothing to lose, just went to the other side to see if it could get any gains.

On the map it showed more wind on the Groupama side but in reality there was more wind on Telefonica side and if Telefonica had not chosed wrongly, going too far away from land, it would have overtaken Groupama. As it is both boats are very close and there will be a fight till the end. Telefonica had showed that with weak to medium winds can go slightly faster than Groupama so it will be really interesting.

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Re: Vor 70

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Easy sailing till the finish line. Puma is going to win and deserve it. They never give a chance to Camper on all those hours of difficult navigation. Well done guys!!!
Looks like a done deal, but it isn't over yet. Theoretically Camper can still catch up. They would have to do roughly 3 kt more than Puma. Camper are doing around 1.7kt. (avg) more than Puma, right now actually 4kt. Who knows, if they navigate the Gulf Stream eddies to their advantage, that race could still be up for grabs. It isn't over until they pass the finish.....
A 40kt northerly would liven things up in the stream, but not today...
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  #2453  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....

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  #2454  
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Two different types of hulls:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Here's an interesting look at the new Ker 50... not a cruising boat, to be sure, but what I find fascinating here is the very antithesis of the slab sided chined hulls from the likes of JPK and others of late....

Here you have three examples of the last boats designed by ker, the 46 still in project, the 40 and the 43:







Yes you are right and the Ker are among the fastest if not the fastest boats of their size. But there is an easy explanation for the different type of hulls:

Ker designed boats are narrower and have about 50% of ballast ratio on a deep bulb. To take all advantage of the generated righting moment upwind the boat needs to heel a lot. The hulls are adapted for that and at the optimum heeling angle will have an almost flat surface on the water.

If you take a look at the photo you have posted (and the others) you will see that when the hull is all heeled the Ker will be going laterally over an almost flat surface that will provide a big hull righting moment. That will happens at an high heeling angle and it is its optimum sailing position upwind.

On a boat like the JPK or an Open 60 the proportion of ballast ratio is not so big, the boat can be lighter and upwind the importance of the ballast in the generated righting moment is not so important so the boat don't need to hell so much and the chines serves to limit the heeling to the optimal angle, that is remarkably less than on a Ker, and to provide there the same effect (maximized hull righting moment) that is obtained with the KER hull on the side over the water at an higher heel angle. I mean, the Open type boat will also be sailing over a flat surface at its optimum heel angle, but that angle is a lot smaller than the one on the Ker.

Upwind, the Ker design is more efficient but upwind it needs a good crew to maintain the boat on its tracks. While a solo type hull boat like the one on the Pogo 12.50 will limit (trough the chine) the heeling the boat can have going downwind (while rolling) to a small quantity a Ker will only have a hull brake to that limit at high angles of heel.

That's why it makes sense to use a hull with chines on a cruising boat (and the shape of hull it is associated with it) because it makes the boat much more easily controlled downwind, permitting the use of an autopilot even going fast and gives a boat that heels a lot less. And I am not talking only about performance boats, you can see this type of hull on most of the modern production cruisers.



That is also why this is the type the hull used on racing solo boats (more easy to exploit the boat). As I have said many times, a Ker will be overall faster than a racing solo type boat, but a solo racer will not be able to race a ker solo at least exploiting it in a way that can be faster than a dedicated solo racer.

Two ways of making fast boats, with advantages and disadvantages.

One of the disadvantages that I have not mentioned yet is price. I mean for a Ker type of boat, the huge righting moment generated by the big ballast on the end of a big draft puts huge strains on the hull, much more than if the same righting moment is obtained mostly through beam. That makes for a considerably more expensive boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-09-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Vor

And that's a fact: Puma won this leg while Groupama has managed to maintain Telefonica at some distance and I guess it will have no trouble making it to 3th place.

This way the overall classification is becoming more even and that only makes the race more interesting. It is also good for the sport that Puma won in America. Let's see if that helps sail ocean racing popularity in the USA.
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  #2456  
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Re: JPK 38FC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
I have been looking at the Pogo 30 as well, I guess I have to wait until it´s finished. On the pictures it appears to lack cockpit backrests, which might be a safety concern with the kids. But they are nice boats, aren´t they!

I hope Eric will share some more experiences from the 12.50. I´d be really interested in how the boat performes in flat water and at what windspeeds it will start planing without the help of surfing.

Kind regards,
Mr W

If any boat would collapse as quickly as any PC crashes, there would be no more boatyards. But since I much prefer a world without PC’s than one without boats, I’m still very happy . Really sorry about the pictures and the video delay, I will post them as soon as I have a well configured and sufficiently performing PC again. And a good YouTube coach .

Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
This confirms my overall impression that the profile of this first JPK cruiser is more towards Malango and even RM than Pogo. With an “American style” longitudinal kitchen, more cosy interior design, panoramic roof windows, lower S/D ratio and less powerful hull, everything else also points this way.

If you’re seeking a multihull-like performance and the advantages of a monohull, I’m afraid you will need both a Bénéteau Sense (catamaran feeling at anchor or in port) and a Pogo-like design (multihull feeling when sailing). Concerning speed almost any trimaran will fly by almost any comparable monohull, but concerning comfort the difference will be as huge in the other way.

Since you are looking for a compromise (aren’t we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.

We don’t, because our sailing area is the English Channel and the North Sea, where choppy seas and very variable wind conditions prevail. Nevertheless, we are very happy with the Pogo 12.50.

Of course it doesn’t like to be sailed close hauled, but a little bearing down is sufficient to make everything quite comfortable and with a very correct VMG, even in strong wind-upon current conditions.
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.

And, once again, anything from a close to a broad reach is very rewarding.
With as little as 12 knots of true wind you can start playing the game: pointing a little to build up apparent wind speed, and then bearing down the minimum to hold on to a good apparent wind angle and keep on planing.
With following 3m seas it was quite easy to surf above 20 knots. But the next weekend we were again in full planing mode, in comparable wind conditions and at a top speed of 18 knots. Without waves to surf on, since this time the swell was only 1m and coming ahead.

I agree with Paulo that this kind of sailing demands some feeling, both at the helm and at the traveller. Especially the big fat-headed mainsail is very sensible, but also very rewarding to trim. With a well-designed deck lay-out and high-spec hardware this is quite an easy job.

Although we are basically dinghy sailors, we don’t think the 12.50 demands anything but good basic sailing skills. Even pushed, the boat never felt out of control and even in 40+ gusts everything always kept perfectly manageable. So I don’t think she could not also be easily sailed short- or even single handed, although I prefer a little more training before trying this myself. But I certainly will do, knowing this is what Pogo’s are basically designed for.

After trying the 10.50 for one week and now having the 12.50 for four weeks I once again agree with Paulo that both are very similar in character. The 12.50 is a cruising version of their latest open 40 class racer while the 10.50 has been specifically designed as a performance cruiser, so the 12.50 is somewhat more powerful. But let there be no doubt, the 10.50 is also a very exciting boat!

In my honest opinion, the difference is mainly about size, especially inside. More space, more headroom and most importantly a whole lot more capacity to carry the extra weight for all our cruising gear, without compromising performance too much because of a lot of extra available volume.

Otherwise the design is very similar, with a quite basic looking but in fact very practical interior for both the 10.50 and 12.50. “De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum” but in both cases it works very well.
At least once you’ve accepted boats don’t necessarily have to look like a Swiss chalet and that the absence of counter mouldings is in fact very handy for both cleaning and maintenance,

All these pro's and con's are evenly valuable for the forthcoming and much awaited Pogo 30 and I also refer to Paulo's recent post. His comments about boat design and architecture are always a delight.

So once again, it is all about compromises and making the right choices.
For myself and after a first 800 NM in very different conditions, I have no more doubt about both the performance, comfort and security of this kind of boat. But “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”, so first try for yourself!

Best regards,

Eric
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  #2457  
Old 05-09-2012
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Jpk 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
....
Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
This confirms my overall impression that the profile of this first JPK cruiser is more towards Malango and even RM than Pogo. With an “American style” longitudinal kitchen, more cosy interior design, panoramic roof windows, lower S/D ratio and less powerful hull, everything else also points this way.
Hi Erick , I see that you are having a lot of fun with your boat. I envy you

Sure the JPK is a boat different from the Pogo, less a downwind boat but a better upwind boat. Yes, the interior space kind of remembers the RM and it has a more cozy and full of light interior, but take a look at the shape of the hull:





If we were looking in 3d the difference would be bigger. The JPK is a much sharper boat with much finer entries.

The Pogo and the RM have about the same ballast ratio (about 0.33/0.34) one substantially smaller than the JPK one (0.38).

Different boats: the JPK has less beam but more ballast, a different balance.

It has not so much sail but because it has less beam it needs less sail for the same speed.

I agree with you that downwind or in a broad reach the Pogo will be faster even if it was not a bigger boat but upwind with waves I have my doubts. It is possible that the extra length can compensate the lesser efficiency but if both boats had the same size I am pretty sure the JPK would be faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
We don’t, because our sailing area is the English Channel and the North Sea, where choppy seas and very variable wind conditions prevail. …
Of course it doesn’t like to be sailed close hauled, but a little bearing down is sufficient to make everything quite comfortable and with a very correct VMG, even in strong wind-upon current conditions.
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.
Yes, the Pogo is a fast boat even upwind but we have to put it in perspective: Downwind it is a very difficult boat to beat and to beat it with another boat of the same size you probably need a crew. Solo sailed it is the kind of hull shape that offers the best performance but it is convenient to remember that upwind in choppy seas not even a Pogo 40 class racer, that is lighter has more sail and liquid ballast, is a match for a top First 40 or a similar boat.

The evidence is there in the results of many races and I have been collecting it to understand better how different hull shapes perform in different conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Since you are looking for a compromise (aren’t we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.
Yes, I certainly agree with that.


I will point out that these boats to be fast have to have not much charge. A Pogo 30 to be fast will have to be light.

If you put a family inside with the water and provisions to cruise…well, I would say that it is a boat for two with a very Spartan way of live, at least to be sailed the way it is designed for. For a family and to go faster chose a bigger boat, a Pogo 10.50 or the JPK 38.

I would say that the JPK 38 is a better offshore boat but if you don’t need it and are going to use it on the conditions that Erick described, maybe the Pogo 10.50 would be a more fun boat to sail. I would try both anyway.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-09-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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  #2458  
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Re: JPK 38FC

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
The swing keel is a really good selling point for me. It allows me to find so many more places to moor the boat. I am a bit worried though. They say a swing keel is safer if you run aground. I see what they meen, since the keel will bounce backwards, reducing the loads. But there can surely also be forces sidewards when running aground. This is a bit of a concern for me, since there will be great forces on these rather deep keels. Also, we don´t have sand bottom. We have solid granite!
Quote:
If you’re seeking a multihull-like performance and the advantages of a monohull, I’m afraid you will need both a Bénéteau Sense (catamaran feeling at anchor or in port) and a Pogo-like design (multihull feeling when sailing). Concerning speed almost any trimaran will fly by almost any comparable monohull, but concerning comfort the difference will be as huge in the other way.
I´m not looking for a floating appartment , there has to be sufficient room for the four of us though. We usually spend the weekends on the boat during the summer and also 2-3 weeks vacation every summer. We don´t need to fill the boat with food and water for 3 weeks, we can stock up after a week. I think I can live with the spartan interior of the Pogos, it will be interesting to see any interior layouts on the Pogo 30. We have been looking at a Dragonfly 28 and that is a small boat for four, but I think we could manage. The new 32 will be somewhat bigger.
Quote:
Since you are looking for a compromise (aren’t we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.
I´m glad to hear you think so!
Quote:
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.
Please do, it would be very interesting.
Quote:
With as little as 12 knots of true wind you can start playing the game: pointing a little to build up apparent wind speed, and then bearing down the minimum to hold on to a good apparent wind angle and keep on planing.
Do you use the big asy in these conditions?
Quote:
With following 3m seas it was quite easy to surf above 20 knots. But the next weekend we were again in full planing mode, in comparable wind conditions and at a top speed of 18 knots. Without waves to surf on, since this time the swell was only 1m and coming ahead.
What were the wind conditions? Must have been a nice breeze!
Quote:
Although we are basically dinghy sailors, we don’t think the 12.50 demands anything but good basic sailing skills. Even pushed, the boat never felt out of control and even in 40+ gusts everything always kept perfectly manageable. So I don’t think she could not also be easily sailed short- or even single handed, although I prefer a little more training before trying this myself. But I certainly will do, knowing this is what Pogo’s are basically designed for.
Very nice to hear! My problem with sailing a trimaran is that in a strong breeze I would never push it with the family onboard. We have very gusty conditions due to a lot of islands and I try to keep sail area down (although they are pretty fast boats even with just main and jib). I never use the asy.
I would not hesitate to push a keelboat in a breeze. There would be no danger, other than a bit of heeling but that´s ok.
Quote:
After trying the 10.50 for one week and now having the 12.50 for four weeks I once again agree with Paulo that both are very similar in character. The 12.50 is a cruising version of their latest open 40 class racer while the 10.50 has been specifically designed as a performance cruiser, so the 12.50 is somewhat more powerful. But let there be no doubt, the 10.50 is also a very exciting boat!
Do you think the newer hullshape of the 12.50 is faster upwind than the 10.50? Someone pointed out that it gets a more efficent shape in the water/ less wetted surface than the older hullshape of the 10.50.

I really appreciate your input and of course Paulos´ as well. I will be looking to buy a boat probably next year when I have sold my motorboat (yeah, I know...)

//Mr W
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  #2459  
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Unhappy Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo,

We have discussed stability quite thoroughly in this thread and now you touch an interesting topic for every performance cruiser: payload. Looking at the JPK, for example, there seems to be a lot of payload capacity left if the green line is the DWL.

On my J35, for example, racing crew weight is 1650 lbs max, so I figured that with 2 adults and 2 kids, I have at least 1200 lbs of equipment and payload. It's resulted that my boat floats almost exactly on the waterline after I've added a lot of equipment and loaded to cruise. Boat no longer accelerates like it did, but it's very stable, manageable, and can keep its hull speed very well, even under motor. I wonder if it will still surf at 15 knots, maybe not, but I'm very happy with overall cruising performance.

Payload capacity would be a useful number if designers published it, and it is barely discussed. Some of these boats are very light, like JPK, Pogo, and RM, but I wonder how hull shapes manage payload design, or if all, like the Pogo, are meant to remain very light. I propose that these payload numbers could either prove these designs as groundbreaking, or useless for more that a backpack joyride.

As always, very interested on your thoughts!

Hans
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Types of boats.

Regarding that search of information about the boat types and its performances one of the favorite places is the Transquadra. There are a large number of boats racing there, the sailors that race it are very Knowledgeable and they are above average sailors but not professional racers or high end Sport sailors. It is a solo or Duo race so the boats used are the ones that can go faster solo or duo sailed by not professional crews. Easy and fast boats on a mostly downwind race.

There are boats that never were chosen to make the race. That is just suspect but can be meaningless and of course it is to be expected a large majority of French made boats.

So, regarding absences I find odd the total absence of the new First 30, from the Elan 310 and 350, from the Pogo 10.50. Elan are not French boats but even so I find it strange. There are lot of Pogos doing that race but they are all 8.50, the model that the Pogo 30 is going to replace, but the results are not good. Never a Pogo 10.50 has made the race.

You can play it back and "see" the last race:

Transquadra 2011

Click on a boat and you will have the brand and model.

Regarding the First 30 it seems that the boat was just overrated. Yes, for cruising it is an interesting boat but for racing is eaten alive by the A31.

Regarding Impressive boats that can go very fast my favorite is the A31. It can go almost as fast as the A35, another great boat that is good in traditional racing and one of the usual winners on this race as off course all JPK models that when they are not winning are among the first places. The A35 is also an interesting performance cruiser with a nice interior. Another boat that is among the fastest is the Sunfast 3200 and that one is a model with already a lot of years, a great design ahead of its time.

All these boats are narrower and have more ballast ratio than the Pogo 8.50 that is a very light boat with lot's of sail, a very powerful boat.

Let's have a look at the hull shapes:

Pogo 8.50



JPK 10.10



A31



A35



Sunfast 3200




Of course this is only a bi-dimensional view but it is relevant in what concerns beam and overall shape.

Regarding the Pogo 10.50, last year one had made the ARC. I was hopping for that boat to go faster than most bigger boats. Well, I found the performance a lot worse than I was hopping for. Of course it could just be a bad sailor but normally the guys that buy Pogo are experienced sailors. One result is not enough, I will be looking for more.


...

Last edited by PCP; 05-10-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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