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  #2451  
Old 05-10-2012
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Re: JPK 38FC

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Checking out the JPK 38, I like it. Although they have now dismissed the swinging keel option and replaced it with twin keels, the fixed keel still being the standard configuration.
The swing keel is a really good selling point for me. It allows me to find so many more places to moor the boat. I am a bit worried though. They say a swing keel is safer if you run aground. I see what they meen, since the keel will bounce backwards, reducing the loads. But there can surely also be forces sidewards when running aground. This is a bit of a concern for me, since there will be great forces on these rather deep keels. Also, we don´t have sand bottom. We have solid granite!
Quote:
If you’re seeking a multihull-like performance and the advantages of a monohull, I’m afraid you will need both a Bénéteau Sense (catamaran feeling at anchor or in port) and a Pogo-like design (multihull feeling when sailing). Concerning speed almost any trimaran will fly by almost any comparable monohull, but concerning comfort the difference will be as huge in the other way.
I´m not looking for a floating appartment , there has to be sufficient room for the four of us though. We usually spend the weekends on the boat during the summer and also 2-3 weeks vacation every summer. We don´t need to fill the boat with food and water for 3 weeks, we can stock up after a week. I think I can live with the spartan interior of the Pogos, it will be interesting to see any interior layouts on the Pogo 30. We have been looking at a Dragonfly 28 and that is a small boat for four, but I think we could manage. The new 32 will be somewhat bigger.
Quote:
Since you are looking for a compromise (aren’t we all?) and you will be sailing mostly in light winds and calm seas, no need for any concern about flat bottoms, light displacements and/or large sails. On the contrary, you have the ideal conditions to fully enjoy this kind of boat design.
I´m glad to hear you think so!
Quote:
The common statement that this kind of boats can not perform upwind is therefore very relative. What is lost in pointing will be made good in speed. As soon as we have finished calibrating all the instruments, I will document this with hard figures.
Please do, it would be very interesting.
Quote:
With as little as 12 knots of true wind you can start playing the game: pointing a little to build up apparent wind speed, and then bearing down the minimum to hold on to a good apparent wind angle and keep on planing.
Do you use the big asy in these conditions?
Quote:
With following 3m seas it was quite easy to surf above 20 knots. But the next weekend we were again in full planing mode, in comparable wind conditions and at a top speed of 18 knots. Without waves to surf on, since this time the swell was only 1m and coming ahead.
What were the wind conditions? Must have been a nice breeze!
Quote:
Although we are basically dinghy sailors, we don’t think the 12.50 demands anything but good basic sailing skills. Even pushed, the boat never felt out of control and even in 40+ gusts everything always kept perfectly manageable. So I don’t think she could not also be easily sailed short- or even single handed, although I prefer a little more training before trying this myself. But I certainly will do, knowing this is what Pogo’s are basically designed for.
Very nice to hear! My problem with sailing a trimaran is that in a strong breeze I would never push it with the family onboard. We have very gusty conditions due to a lot of islands and I try to keep sail area down (although they are pretty fast boats even with just main and jib). I never use the asy.
I would not hesitate to push a keelboat in a breeze. There would be no danger, other than a bit of heeling but that´s ok.
Quote:
After trying the 10.50 for one week and now having the 12.50 for four weeks I once again agree with Paulo that both are very similar in character. The 12.50 is a cruising version of their latest open 40 class racer while the 10.50 has been specifically designed as a performance cruiser, so the 12.50 is somewhat more powerful. But let there be no doubt, the 10.50 is also a very exciting boat!
Do you think the newer hullshape of the 12.50 is faster upwind than the 10.50? Someone pointed out that it gets a more efficent shape in the water/ less wetted surface than the older hullshape of the 10.50.

I really appreciate your input and of course Paulos´ as well. I will be looking to buy a boat probably next year when I have sold my motorboat (yeah, I know...)

//Mr W
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  #2452  
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Unhappy Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo,

We have discussed stability quite thoroughly in this thread and now you touch an interesting topic for every performance cruiser: payload. Looking at the JPK, for example, there seems to be a lot of payload capacity left if the green line is the DWL.

On my J35, for example, racing crew weight is 1650 lbs max, so I figured that with 2 adults and 2 kids, I have at least 1200 lbs of equipment and payload. It's resulted that my boat floats almost exactly on the waterline after I've added a lot of equipment and loaded to cruise. Boat no longer accelerates like it did, but it's very stable, manageable, and can keep its hull speed very well, even under motor. I wonder if it will still surf at 15 knots, maybe not, but I'm very happy with overall cruising performance.

Payload capacity would be a useful number if designers published it, and it is barely discussed. Some of these boats are very light, like JPK, Pogo, and RM, but I wonder how hull shapes manage payload design, or if all, like the Pogo, are meant to remain very light. I propose that these payload numbers could either prove these designs as groundbreaking, or useless for more that a backpack joyride.

As always, very interested on your thoughts!

Hans
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  #2453  
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Types of boats.

Regarding that search of information about the boat types and its performances one of the favorite places is the Transquadra. There are a large number of boats racing there, the sailors that race it are very Knowledgeable and they are above average sailors but not professional racers or high end Sport sailors. It is a solo or Duo race so the boats used are the ones that can go faster solo or duo sailed by not professional crews. Easy and fast boats on a mostly downwind race.

There are boats that never were chosen to make the race. That is just suspect but can be meaningless and of course it is to be expected a large majority of French made boats.

So, regarding absences I find odd the total absence of the new First 30, from the Elan 310 and 350, from the Pogo 10.50. Elan are not French boats but even so I find it strange. There are lot of Pogos doing that race but they are all 8.50, the model that the Pogo 30 is going to replace, but the results are not good. Never a Pogo 10.50 has made the race.

You can play it back and "see" the last race:

Transquadra 2011

Click on a boat and you will have the brand and model.

Regarding the First 30 it seems that the boat was just overrated. Yes, for cruising it is an interesting boat but for racing is eaten alive by the A31.

Regarding Impressive boats that can go very fast my favorite is the A31. It can go almost as fast as the A35, another great boat that is good in traditional racing and one of the usual winners on this race as off course all JPK models that when they are not winning are among the first places. The A35 is also an interesting performance cruiser with a nice interior. Another boat that is among the fastest is the Sunfast 3200 and that one is a model with already a lot of years, a great design ahead of its time.

All these boats are narrower and have more ballast ratio than the Pogo 8.50 that is a very light boat with lot's of sail, a very powerful boat.

Let's have a look at the hull shapes:

Pogo 8.50



JPK 10.10



A31



A35



Sunfast 3200




Of course this is only a bi-dimensional view but it is relevant in what concerns beam and overall shape.

Regarding the Pogo 10.50, last year one had made the ARC. I was hopping for that boat to go faster than most bigger boats. Well, I found the performance a lot worse than I was hopping for. Of course it could just be a bad sailor but normally the guys that buy Pogo are experienced sailors. One result is not enough, I will be looking for more.


...

Last edited by PCP; 05-10-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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  #2454  
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J125

A good example of one of those boats that excels upwind and can go fast downwind but needs an experienced hand at the wheel and someone to take care of the sails. Difficult to see how you can leave this animal on autopilot, fast downwind, to go safely forward , to take care of the sail.

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  #2455  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Yes we do, Paulo. Let me know whenever you would be in the neighbourhood of Nieuwpoort and we will have fun together .

Finer entries are linked to better or at least more comfortable upwind performance. Although David Raison (what’s in a name?) surprised almost everybody with his “scow” bowed mini TeamWork Evolution, which only dislikes oncoming waves but otherwise outperforms every other 6.50, even upwind.
Look at the boat, can anyone understand how Ola could miss this huge opportunity to promote their Magnum ice-cream lolly by sponsoring David Raison ? But that’s another story and probably out of thread.

Anyway, the bigger the boat, the easier it seems for the architect to give it a fine entry. This certainly has to do with internal volume, but I am sure there are many more good reasons why smaller boats have more bulky lines in the forward sections.

I ‘ve seen VPP and VMG figures that suggest the Pogo 12.50 should even be able to keep up with a racer such as the X41 upwind (fastsailing.gr - The crazy polar diagrams - VMG at all angles - The yacht , Stunningly fast!).
When I look at our actual upwind GPS tracks on the screen, I find this very hard to believe. But as we learn, especially about trimming, we definitely make progress. Who knows, one day… As soon as we can collect reliable data and have made sensible comparisons on the water, I’ll certainly let you know.

But as Paulo stated, even apart from handicap considerations (horrible for any Pogo, designed without any consideration for any handicap rule), racing results indicate we will very probably never be able to stand out in an upwind course.

Concerning B/D ratio, I think the draught should also be taken into consideration. There must be a big difference in righting moment, and thus in both security and power, between the same ballast weight in a 2m deep massive cast iron keel or in a 3m deep composite construction with all the weight in lead and in in the bottom section. As far as I know only Structures is offering this latter kind of build for cruisers and I understand they want to keep the details of this design for themselves.

On the other hand, the much lower centre of gravity will act even more like a pendulum which, together with the overall light weight design, should result in a less comfortable motion against waves. That’s probably also why we should not try to sail close-hauled but concentrate upon keeping up both speed and power by bearing down a little.

I couldn’t tell if the more modern design of the 12.50 performs better upwind than the 10.50. When sailing the 10.50 our upwind tracks were also quite lousy and the speed also quite exhilarating. I’m sure Structures will very honestly answer that question, Mr. W.

But I can assure you that a deep keel and a big beam do give you tremendous power. When we hit 18 knots without surfing but against a light swell, we had about 25 knots of TWS on a broad reach and only the (full) main + solent up. I don’t think we will ever try the asymmetric spi or even the code 0 in these conditions, after all the 12.50 is only a cruiser.

Even so I wonder why the 8.50’s did not do well in the Transquadra, while the 6.50’s took the first eight places in the Transat 6.50, both mainly downwind races. And why nobody chose a 10.50 to compete. These are absolute facts I cannot explain but I’m confident Paulo will.

Weight is indeed a major issue on this kind of boats. That’s why our son and most fanatic sailor Jim has been appointed as our “weight watcher”. Being the youngest, he has the best chances to resist Mum’s urge to fill up the boat with stuff we don’t even use at home. And to persuade Dad to drag the dehumidifier and the folding bike back to the car bunk before we go out sailing. Or to keep a sharp look at the water tanks, since they must not be filled up as long as we can take a shower ashore. Kids…

I personally feel very secure about the swinging keel, Mr. W. It will certainly much better absorb the loads when running aground than any fixed construction. The hydraulic overpressure valve will let it cant, instead of having the hull take the full impact. Be it on sand or on rocks, at speed you will need to repair the outer damage to the GRP (in fact it is GR vinylester) shell anyway. I have also no worry about lateral loads, since the keel is designed to sustain a quite huge righting moment. It is designed to bend, which it even does in normal sailing mode.

The space is big for a 40 footer, inside and outside, as you can expect with a 4.50m beam. At our little “housewarming” reception the main cabin hosted 17 of us, albeit sitting and standing in all possible and impossible places. This would have been much easier in the cockpit, if it weren’t for the cold and heavy rainfall.
All the classic (and my opinion impractical) storage space beneath the bunks is taken up by water tanks or by foam to make the boat unsinkable, but this leaves sufficient stowage to completely overload the boat. The capacity of both the starboard technical/stowage/spare sleeping cabin and the cockpit locker is simply huge.
Apart from headroom, the volume was the main reason why we chose for the 12.50 instead of the 10.50.

So Jim’s job is absolutely essential to prevent us from loading and keep TriMen planing .
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  #2456  
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Re: Jpk 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I will point out that these boats to be fast have to have not much charge. A Pogo 30 to be fast will have to be light.

If you put a family inside with the water and provisions to cruise…well, I would say that it is a boat for two with a very Spartan way of live, at least to be sailed the way it is designed for. For a family and to go faster chose a bigger boat, a Pogo 10.50 or the JPK 38.
I think you are absolutely right Paulo. We are used to keeping our boats lightly packed. Mostly though because of lack of storagespace We´ve owned a Dragonfly 800 SW Racing and a Seaon 96, both very exciting boats but very sensitive to overloading. We probably won´t carry more than we need if we buy a weight sensitive boat. All you need to satisfy the kids nowadays is an iPad...

I still find the Pogo 30 very appealing, I will definitely keep it on my short list. That´s also why I brought up the question to have one built in carbon fiber. Might save enough kg´s to go on vacation with the whole family and still be very fast!

//Mr W
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
But I can assure you that a deep keel and a big beam do give you tremendous power. When we hit 18 knots without surfing but against a light swell, we had about 25 knots of TWS on a broad reach and only the (full) main + solent up.
Sweeeet!
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  #2458  
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Aspect 40

I can share with you some information about a swedish boat, that probably isn´t to famous around Europe. This is acutally not a brand new design, the prototype was built in 2007 and I think the first production boat was launched 2009. It is a bit of a contrast to the Pogos I would say. Here is the Aspect 40:








More info and pictures on Aspect40 (in swedish). Some quick specs:

Length 11,95 m
Beam 3,20 m
Depth 2,14 m
Weight 4,400 kg
Main 44 sqm
Jib 38 sqm
Code 0 88 sqm
A2 125 sqm

This is also a fast cruiser that I could consider. It´s a shame it doesn´t come with a swing keel though

Mr W
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Aspect 40

I did not knew that one and it should be a very fast boat specially upwind. They have some videos:






but that boat is the absolute opposite of Pogo With a beam of only 3.20m and almost half of its weight in ballast.

The boat weights only 4400kg and almost half is in ballast meaning that hull will only weights about 2000kg. That would be a boat that you would have to continually check to see if everything is all right, I mean the boat is built like a racer and not probably one of those racers that you can circumnavigate and forget about stress fatigue on the material.

I like the concept but not the boat design, not in the cabin, cockpit and specially not in the interior.

Among that type of boats, I mean narrow (but not as narrow) and fast my favorite is the Finnflyer 42. A bit different on the concept and less radical, also lots of ballast but much more form stability and the interior is just beautiful. I know, I was inside one and was really in love with the boat

On the Aspect 40 the boat has only one sailing position : deep heeled. That is not very comfortable for kids and certainly would make a difference from the trimarans you have owned in what respects sensations.

Have a look at the Finnflyer 42:



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-10-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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Trailer

Nice trailer of a movie about the 2011 Fastnet.


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