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  #2461  
Old 05-10-2012
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J125

A good example of one of those boats that excels upwind and can go fast downwind but needs an experienced hand at the wheel and someone to take care of the sails. Difficult to see how you can leave this animal on autopilot, fast downwind, to go safely forward , to take care of the sail.

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  #2462  
Old 05-10-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Yes we do, Paulo. Let me know whenever you would be in the neighbourhood of Nieuwpoort and we will have fun together .

Finer entries are linked to better or at least more comfortable upwind performance. Although David Raison (what’s in a name?) surprised almost everybody with his “scow” bowed mini TeamWork Evolution, which only dislikes oncoming waves but otherwise outperforms every other 6.50, even upwind.
Look at the boat, can anyone understand how Ola could miss this huge opportunity to promote their Magnum ice-cream lolly by sponsoring David Raison ? But that’s another story and probably out of thread.

Anyway, the bigger the boat, the easier it seems for the architect to give it a fine entry. This certainly has to do with internal volume, but I am sure there are many more good reasons why smaller boats have more bulky lines in the forward sections.

I ‘ve seen VPP and VMG figures that suggest the Pogo 12.50 should even be able to keep up with a racer such as the X41 upwind (fastsailing.gr - The crazy polar diagrams - VMG at all angles - The yacht , Stunningly fast!).
When I look at our actual upwind GPS tracks on the screen, I find this very hard to believe. But as we learn, especially about trimming, we definitely make progress. Who knows, one day… As soon as we can collect reliable data and have made sensible comparisons on the water, I’ll certainly let you know.

But as Paulo stated, even apart from handicap considerations (horrible for any Pogo, designed without any consideration for any handicap rule), racing results indicate we will very probably never be able to stand out in an upwind course.

Concerning B/D ratio, I think the draught should also be taken into consideration. There must be a big difference in righting moment, and thus in both security and power, between the same ballast weight in a 2m deep massive cast iron keel or in a 3m deep composite construction with all the weight in lead and in in the bottom section. As far as I know only Structures is offering this latter kind of build for cruisers and I understand they want to keep the details of this design for themselves.

On the other hand, the much lower centre of gravity will act even more like a pendulum which, together with the overall light weight design, should result in a less comfortable motion against waves. That’s probably also why we should not try to sail close-hauled but concentrate upon keeping up both speed and power by bearing down a little.

I couldn’t tell if the more modern design of the 12.50 performs better upwind than the 10.50. When sailing the 10.50 our upwind tracks were also quite lousy and the speed also quite exhilarating. I’m sure Structures will very honestly answer that question, Mr. W.

But I can assure you that a deep keel and a big beam do give you tremendous power. When we hit 18 knots without surfing but against a light swell, we had about 25 knots of TWS on a broad reach and only the (full) main + solent up. I don’t think we will ever try the asymmetric spi or even the code 0 in these conditions, after all the 12.50 is only a cruiser.

Even so I wonder why the 8.50’s did not do well in the Transquadra, while the 6.50’s took the first eight places in the Transat 6.50, both mainly downwind races. And why nobody chose a 10.50 to compete. These are absolute facts I cannot explain but I’m confident Paulo will.

Weight is indeed a major issue on this kind of boats. That’s why our son and most fanatic sailor Jim has been appointed as our “weight watcher”. Being the youngest, he has the best chances to resist Mum’s urge to fill up the boat with stuff we don’t even use at home. And to persuade Dad to drag the dehumidifier and the folding bike back to the car bunk before we go out sailing. Or to keep a sharp look at the water tanks, since they must not be filled up as long as we can take a shower ashore. Kids…

I personally feel very secure about the swinging keel, Mr. W. It will certainly much better absorb the loads when running aground than any fixed construction. The hydraulic overpressure valve will let it cant, instead of having the hull take the full impact. Be it on sand or on rocks, at speed you will need to repair the outer damage to the GRP (in fact it is GR vinylester) shell anyway. I have also no worry about lateral loads, since the keel is designed to sustain a quite huge righting moment. It is designed to bend, which it even does in normal sailing mode.

The space is big for a 40 footer, inside and outside, as you can expect with a 4.50m beam. At our little “housewarming” reception the main cabin hosted 17 of us, albeit sitting and standing in all possible and impossible places. This would have been much easier in the cockpit, if it weren’t for the cold and heavy rainfall.
All the classic (and my opinion impractical) storage space beneath the bunks is taken up by water tanks or by foam to make the boat unsinkable, but this leaves sufficient stowage to completely overload the boat. The capacity of both the starboard technical/stowage/spare sleeping cabin and the cockpit locker is simply huge.
Apart from headroom, the volume was the main reason why we chose for the 12.50 instead of the 10.50.

So Jim’s job is absolutely essential to prevent us from loading and keep TriMen planing .
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  #2463  
Old 05-10-2012
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Re: Jpk 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I will point out that these boats to be fast have to have not much charge. A Pogo 30 to be fast will have to be light.

If you put a family inside with the water and provisions to cruise…well, I would say that it is a boat for two with a very Spartan way of live, at least to be sailed the way it is designed for. For a family and to go faster chose a bigger boat, a Pogo 10.50 or the JPK 38.
I think you are absolutely right Paulo. We are used to keeping our boats lightly packed. Mostly though because of lack of storagespace We´ve owned a Dragonfly 800 SW Racing and a Seaon 96, both very exciting boats but very sensitive to overloading. We probably won´t carry more than we need if we buy a weight sensitive boat. All you need to satisfy the kids nowadays is an iPad...

I still find the Pogo 30 very appealing, I will definitely keep it on my short list. That´s also why I brought up the question to have one built in carbon fiber. Might save enough kg´s to go on vacation with the whole family and still be very fast!

//Mr W
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  #2464  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
But I can assure you that a deep keel and a big beam do give you tremendous power. When we hit 18 knots without surfing but against a light swell, we had about 25 knots of TWS on a broad reach and only the (full) main + solent up.
Sweeeet!
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  #2465  
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Aspect 40

I can share with you some information about a swedish boat, that probably isn´t to famous around Europe. This is acutally not a brand new design, the prototype was built in 2007 and I think the first production boat was launched 2009. It is a bit of a contrast to the Pogos I would say. Here is the Aspect 40:








More info and pictures on Aspect40 (in swedish). Some quick specs:

Length 11,95 m
Beam 3,20 m
Depth 2,14 m
Weight 4,400 kg
Main 44 sqm
Jib 38 sqm
Code 0 88 sqm
A2 125 sqm

This is also a fast cruiser that I could consider. It´s a shame it doesn´t come with a swing keel though

Mr W
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  #2466  
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Aspect 40

I did not knew that one and it should be a very fast boat specially upwind. They have some videos:






but that boat is the absolute opposite of Pogo With a beam of only 3.20m and almost half of its weight in ballast.

The boat weights only 4400kg and almost half is in ballast meaning that hull will only weights about 2000kg. That would be a boat that you would have to continually check to see if everything is all right, I mean the boat is built like a racer and not probably one of those racers that you can circumnavigate and forget about stress fatigue on the material.

I like the concept but not the boat design, not in the cabin, cockpit and specially not in the interior.

Among that type of boats, I mean narrow (but not as narrow) and fast my favorite is the Finnflyer 42. A bit different on the concept and less radical, also lots of ballast but much more form stability and the interior is just beautiful. I know, I was inside one and was really in love with the boat

On the Aspect 40 the boat has only one sailing position : deep heeled. That is not very comfortable for kids and certainly would make a difference from the trimarans you have owned in what respects sensations.

Have a look at the Finnflyer 42:



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-10-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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  #2467  
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Trailer

Nice trailer of a movie about the 2011 Fastnet.


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  #2468  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Too fine entries, combined with too wide sterns ,eliminates directional stability, and make a boat hard to control downwind. Such bad hull balance is a common curse on cruising boats.
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  #2469  
Old 05-11-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Too fine entries, combined with too wide sterns ,eliminates directional stability, and make a boat hard to control downwind. Such bad hull balance is a common curse on cruising boats.
I don't understand what you mean. These two factors are not independent and have to be associated with a properly designed hull. Maybe you are talking about the design of old IOR boats that had a big beam at the middle of the boat and fine entries and small transoms. I tend to agree.

But I am talking about modern hull designed and boats with the beam brought aft. Regarding those you cannot have more directional stability than on an open 60 or a Class 40. That is one of the main design requirements on those boats and they are being perfected along 40 years.

Directional stability is fundamental to solo sailing where you leave the boat on autopilot even on the middle of a storm and keep tacing or have to go forward (leaving the boat on autopilot) with the boats going ant racing speeds.

Directional stability and a stable platform while sailing is probably the main reason those boats are so beamy. If speed was the only concern the boats would be more narrow, along the lines of VOR boats. And of course, those boats have fine entries.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2470  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I am talking about modern hull designed and boats with the beam brought aft. Regarding those you cannot have more directional stability than on an open 60 or a Class 40. That is one of the main design requirements on those boats and they are being perfected along 40 years.

Directional stability and a stable platform while sailing is probably the main reason those boats are so beamy. If speed was the only concern the boats would be more narrow, along the lines of VOR boats. And of course, those boats have fine entries.
I could not agree more.

The 12.50 has quite fine entries, a disgraceful 4m50 and very aft beam, but an extraordinary directional stability with its twin rudders.

To illustrate this: we once started the autopilot at +10knots on a beam reach and it took us several minutes to realise the pilot piston was in fact disengaged from the steering mechanism (we do this on purpose when steering ourselves, to get more feeling at the helm). The boat was perfectly steering itself, as if it were a long keeler sailing upwind.

Best regards,

Eric
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