Interesting Sailboats - Page 249 - SailNet Community
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post #2481 of 6763 Old 05-14-2012 Thread Starter
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They arrived. I have said that for the last podium place there would be a big fight, but I never suspected it would be so big: Jeanne et Veniard versus Paul et Fabien. On the last hours of the race they have changed position 4 times and almost over the line jeanne manage to overtake them one last and final time, the 5th time

For once first the images of that fight. The first boat on the Images is the one from Tabarly that was second, after together the Jeanne and Paul boats.



and of course "King" Morvan and Dalin winning the race:

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post #2482 of 6763 Old 05-14-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Aspect 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
I can share with you some information about a swedish boat, that probably isn´t to famous around Europe. This is acutally not a brand new design, the prototype was built in 2007 and I think the first production boat was launched 2009. It is a bit of a contrast to the Pogos I would say. Here is the Aspect 40:



...
More info and pictures on Aspect40 (in swedish). Some quick specs:

Length 11,95 m
Beam 3,20 m
Depth 2,14 m
Weight 4,400 kg
Main 44 sqm
Jib 38 sqm
Code 0 88 sqm
A2 125 sqm

This is also a fast cruiser that I could consider. It´s a shame it doesn´t come with a swing keel though

Mr W



I guess your are going to like this: The guys from Hamnen tested The Aspect 40 upwind against a 15 year old design, a boat that is a Pogo predecessor, in flat water with about 12K wind, this boat:



This is a Bergstrom & Ridder 38, also a Swedish boat and one well ahead of its time. The boat has a swing keel similar to the Pogo but the beam is more like the one on the JPK, in fact a bit less, with only 3.86m also with the beam brought back. This one has also water ballasts but they seem not have given them much use with this kind of wind.


Well, in flat water the boat with old sails had a similar performance as the bigger Aspect 40. I guess things would be different with waves but downwind the B&R 38 would smoke the Aspect 40.

This confirms my opinion that the balance to very narrow boats only give them advantages on some particular cases and that a medium beamy boat is an overall better performer even in what concerns racing with a crew.

The movie:





Here the test description and some photos of the boat interior:

B&R 38 vs Aspect 40


Bob Perry said already back in 1997 about this boat:

The new 38 is a visionary approach to cruising yacht design.

Bergstrom & Ridder 38

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-14-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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post #2483 of 6763 Old 05-14-2012
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Smile Re: Salona 38

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Hi, welcome to the sailnet and welcome to this thread. That is a coincidence...I mean your name: Are you Eric or are you sending cheers to Eric, the one that posted before you?

Beautiful boat eh! eh! I almost bought one. I give up not on account of the boat but because it was just a bit over my budget.

You say that bought it by the drawings last summer. Last summer I had already sailed the prototype

What keel do you have? What was your previous boat? Tell us more about the boat, particularly more details about that "fast, fast!".

The development of the Salona 38 was closely followed on this thread, I am very interested in what you have to say as well as several members, so please give us more details.

Hi Paolo,

Indeed my name is Eric.

My previous boat was an Enter 360 (which was an newer version of the more know Diva 355/35). The 'main' reason for buying another ship was the need of 3 cabins. Having four kids and dutch weather made the old ship a small place for 6. Moreover the Enter has 2 cabins and no beds in the saloon.

I saw your report on the Salona 38. I bought the Salona the weekend of the launch by Dean Barker.

Initially I had my mind set on a Xp38, based upon the initial pricing of the Xp44 I had an idea of what the Xp38 should cost. All in all the price of a Xp38 is way too expensive. In my mind at least 50.000 euro.

What I really like about the Salona 38 is that the deck layout is great, the hardware (winches, block etc) of very good quality (all Harken). It is well build and the NX2 hardware is also nice to work with. The only minor point the size of the bathroom. (I saw the one on the Xp38, but that one makes the saloon very small).

Although after sailing 300 miles give me a very good feeling, in terms of true performance I still need to measure, some speeds, one thing that needs sorting out is the headsail 106% of which the clew was too low. What I like is that the boat is very responsive. For now I've reached 9.8 on 60 dgrs app. in 16 knots and 12.6 on 140 dgrs app in 20-24 knots wind in (relative) flat water.

The Salona 38 I've got had a 'standard' hull and rigg and keel. So Iron keel, no vacuum infusion hull, no rod rigging.

That was for two reasons, at some point, you run out of money, and I gonna use the boat for 98% for cruising. However I did opt for Pentex (grey) sails.

This weekend I'm gonna try the modified headsail and the gennaker.

Regards, Eric
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Re: Aspect 40

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess your are going to like this: The guys from Hamnen tested The Aspect 40 upwind against a 15 year old design, a boat that is a Pogo predecessor, in flat water with about 12K wind, this boat:

Now this is really creapy! I was actually going to post about the B&R 38 a few days ago, but I just haven´t gotten around to post about it yet!

In the mid 90s this boat was way ahead of it´s time in many perspectives and has some similarities with some of the modern boats discussed here. The guy who owns this boat (which is the only one built) is Jimmy, who also owns Airbender, an Admiralty 30 which I think you posted a video of earlier (also video from hamnen). He bought the B&R for this season and has been upgrading it during the winter.

This boat is very fast, it weighs only 3,300kg (was actually supposed to weigh 2,600kg), so the Aspect 40 has 33% more weight.

They were keeping up with the Aspect during this test sail with about 7,5 knots boatspeed upwind. They also did some downwind sailing and they were doing about the same speed as the Aspect, up to 11 knots in these light conditions. I guess it´s fair to say that both boats are fast!

In the first regatta of the year last weekend, both these boats attended. The Aspect actually beat the B&R with 02h13m18s vs 02h22m24s (not corrected) (http://lss.a.se/bodySidor/04_kappseg...asser_2012.pdf, see start 6).

As for being as wide as the JPK (almost), that probably only applies to maximum beam. The B&R is only 2,26m at the waterline:


If I think of some more well designed swedish boats, I will try to post about them before you do

Kind regards,
Mr W
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post #2485 of 6763 Old 05-14-2012 Thread Starter
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B&r 38

Thanks for posting it. I did not found the boat dimensions I mean the ballast and weight. About the weight that’s what I was talking about on the Pogo regarding the weight being less than the one preview by the NA: Very difficult and it would be about the first time or almost.

This is a very light boat even considering that is quite naked in the interior. This is more the weight of a racing boat than one of a performance cruiser and like any top racing boat it is the type of boat that has to be checked after each race. Considering the 3300kg the boat has a ballast ratio inferior to the Pogo and substantially inferior to the JPK one. I guess that is why it has and need water ballast for stronger winds.

Regarding what you say concerning the beam at waterline, that is what I was talking about referring to a boat “Footprint”. That has nothing to do with Max beam but with the boat displacement. Obviously this one will be smaller because this boat weights substantially less than the JPK that weights more 2200kg. However it is good to remember that from those almost 1000kg are ballast.

The JPK will also have a narrow footprint (beam at water level) since it is a very light boat for a 38ft, I mean if we consider performance boats and not racers.

Regarding going downwind with 11K wind is to be expected similar results but with wind over 13/14 K I am pretty sure the B&R will be faster. With 11K the boats will not be able to plane. The B&R will need less wind than the Aspect 40 to plane, probably 2 or 3 knots less and that will make him much faster at that border.

With high winds the B&R will be more controllable and probably faster. As I have said the Aspect 40 will go faster upwind with waves. The race results in real time, assuming both boats are raced with the same level of competence, will depend on the wind and sea they get.

Off course we are talking about a 38ft boat against a 40ft boat : If the boats were the same size I am pretty sure the B&R would be faster and even like it is I still think that on most conditions the B&R will be faster however we will have to assume the same number of crew seating on the side of the boat, otherwise it will be kind of cheating.

I have said already that I think that it is time to have on IRC a penalty for the “dead weight” on the side of the boat. The rating of the boat should in my opinion be different depending on the crew number.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-14-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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post #2486 of 6763 Old 05-15-2012
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Re: B&r 38

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This is a very light boat even considering that is quite naked in the interior.
Regarding interior, here´s what Jimmy says: "Since it is primarily a cruiser the boat is fully furnished, albeit in light sandwich, with berths in both the saloon, forward cabin and aft and three closets in addition to storage space under all berths. There are also sea berths in the saloon and aft to get good sleep for long passages. Galley is large with fridge, stove, oven, etc. Otherwise, the boat is furnished with a table (not a given in today's performance-oriented boats) as well as toilet and heater to make life more pleasant."

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding going downwind with 11K wind is to be expected similar results but with wind over 13/14 K I am pretty sure the B&R will be faster. With 11K the boats will not be able to plane.
Actually wind speed was 12 knots, boat speed downwind was 11 knots.

Quote:
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I have said already that I think that it is time to have on IRC a penalty for the “dead weight” on the side of the boat. The rating of the boat should in my opinion be different depending on the crew number.
I couldn´t agree more. I would like to see that under the swedish handicap system as well.

It´s a shame only one boat was built, but it appears to have been a bit expensive at the time. Having a Marström carbon fiber mast, water ballast and 3m swing keel in the mid 90s on a cruising boat might be one explanation to why it was expensive... That rig is really something!

//Mr W
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post #2487 of 6763 Old 05-15-2012
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Re: B&R 38

Hi Paulo,

While we´re talking about Bergström & Ridder designed boats, you might want to check out the Route 66:
ROUTE 66
and the B&R 23:
Torkel Båtar - B&R 23

//MrW
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post #2488 of 6763 Old 05-15-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Salona 38

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Hi Paolo,

Indeed my name is Eric.

My previous boat was an Enter 360 (which was an newer version of the more know Diva 355/35). The 'main' reason for buying another ship was the need of 3 cabins. Having four kids and dutch weather made the old ship a small place for 6. Moreover the Enter has 2 cabins and no beds in the saloon.

I saw your report on the Salona 38. I bought the Salona the weekend of the launch by Dean Barker.

Initially I had my mind set on a Xp38, based upon the initial pricing of the Xp44 I had an idea of what the Xp38 should cost. All in all the price of a Xp38 is way too expensive. In my mind at least 50.000 euro.

What I really like about the Salona 38 is that the deck layout is great, the hardware (winches, block etc) of very good quality (all Harken). It is well build and the NX2 hardware is also nice to work with. The only minor point the size of the bathroom. (I saw the one on the Xp38, but that one makes the saloon very small).

Although after sailing 300 miles give me a very good feeling, in terms of true performance I still need to measure, some speeds, one thing that needs sorting out is the headsail 106% of which the clew was too low. What I like is that the boat is very responsive. For now I've reached 9.8 on 60 dgrs app. in 16 knots and 12.6 on 140 dgrs app in 20-24 knots wind in (relative) flat water.

The Salona 38 I've got had a 'standard' hull and rigg and keel. So Iron keel, no vacuum infusion hull, no rod rigging.

That was for two reasons, at some point, you run out of money, and I gonna use the boat for 98% for cruising. However I did opt for Pentex (grey) sails.

This weekend I'm gonna try the modified headsail and the gennaker.

Regards, Eric
And mine is Paulo, not Paolo That is becoming a joke. I am Portuguese, that is the Italian way of saying it

Your boat really looks very nice and that sails are gorgeous.



Nice to know that this thread helped you to find a boat that you like and are satisfied with.

Regarding those speeds they seems good to me considering you are using a small 106% head sail downwind and that the boat is not the performance version. You mention also that there was no waves and that does not give any additional bonus in what regards surfing. I guess that also with 16K at 60º ap the boat can carry more sail than that 106% headsail so the 9.8K at 60º seems also good to me.

Even if those speeds are very good cruising speeds in any cruising 38ft I am sure you are going to do better specially with more adapted head sails for downwind sailing.

I tried the same boat Dean Barker tested some time before. It was a top specification boat with really top sails. There was almost no wind (2 to 4K) and we were sailing faster than the wind all time, making wind with the boat speed. I was quite impressed with the boat light wind capacities and we were not using a geenaker.

Keep us posted about your boat... and by the way, congratulations for a very nice boat. May you and your family enjoy many happy moments on it.

Fair winds

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-15-2012 at 07:54 AM.
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post #2489 of 6763 Old 05-15-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo,

My sincere apologies for the Italian, won't happen again.

I remember now that we used the gennaker (a loaner, not mine) of the final stretch to our home port on delivery. We had about 6 knots of wind and we did 7-8 knots.



and indeed faster than the wind.

Thanks very much for the congratulations. I am wondering did make a decision about which boat you wanted to buy? And if so, what did you choose?

(apologies if I missed that somewhere here in the tread)

Regards, Eric
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

tnt34 13 knots in light with wind -
top view -
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