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  #2481  
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Transat AG2R

Great images again



They are almost there, more 24 hours. Tabarly is nearer, at only 17Nm but I don't believe he can win that to Morvan in 24 hours.

Great fight for the last podium place between Jeanne and Paul.

Transat AG2R La Mondiale 2012
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  #2482  
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Re: Pogo 12.50 - JPK 38

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First of allto let things clearnot properly to you but to alllet me say that I love the Pogo designThat design is associated with proposing a boat with amazing performances at a price people can buy (at leat some:D). Other type of fast boats with more ballast ratio and more narrow are more expensive to build and also more difficult to sail near the limitsspecially downwind.

That does not mean that the boat is perfect and has not weak points and strong points neither it is the best answer to all sailors or all sailing conditionseven considering speed alone
No doubt, Paulo. If the boat has met most of our expectations so far, it’s is only because of our own and very personal sailing ambitions. Or because we have not yet had enough experience with it
But there’s absolutely no way this kind of design will please every sailor. Different programs, different priorities, different tastes, that’s what makes this thread so interesting to me

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Those polar consider flat waterThe Pogo type design will not have a problem going fast upwind on flat watereven if a bit more off the wind
These VPP’s and polars are indeed very theoretical. It seems clear to me that we will never be able to keep up with an X41 upwind, even in flat sea conditions. If we ever do, there will be champagne for everyone

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The problem of those designs has to do with going fast upwind with waves

The bigger the waves the worse is the performanceThat has to do with wave drag that is increasing exponentially in that boat when crashing through wavesmaking it lose more power than the one the boat can generate over other type of boatsOf course the big power needed to go on those conditions and the big wave drag make also the boat very uncomfortable in that particular case. 
Our very first experiences in strong wind-against-tide conditions tend to confirm this. It needs quite hard work at the helm to keep the boat comfortable.
But we think we still have a lot to learn, about trimming as well as about steering, especially upwind. I’ll be glad to post the data as soon as we have become sufficiently confident.

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I have saw that 40 class racersthat are a much more powerful boat than your Pogohave not good performances when they got nasty weather upwindOn the last "around NZ race really nasty weather lead to the abandon of the Pogo 40 class racer that was having a bad performance, beaten even by narrow old boats, but that were really very bad conditions. Other boats with the same type of design also experienced difficulties and an overall bad performance. The guys on the Pogo were good, they are one of the main racing teams on that side of the world and the only one that races (for years) with a 40class boat on ocean races. It is the same team that had made several Sydney-Hobart with that boat. 
These kinds of boats perform very differently in different kinds of races. No wonder, they are after all “open” designs resulting from so called “box rules”. But I still cannot explain why the 8.50’s performed so badly in the Transquadra and 10.50’s didn’t even compete, while the 6.50’s keep on killing everybody in the Mini Transat, since both are mainly downwind races.

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Regarding this I have to disagree with youA narrow foil with a torpedo has a better performance than your swing keelIt offers less drag (less surface) and it brings the CG lower.

Have a look at the picture on the JPK 38. The keel CG is marked on each one and you can see that is remarkably lower on the torpedo keel:

[
IMG]http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/yy322/Paulo_Carvalho/Vega/hhh-1.jpg[/IMG]

This is a similar keel to the one that you have in your boatHighly efficient for a swing keel but not a match for a fixed top keelThat is why for the same ballast the Pogo has to have a bigger draft on the swing keel (kell downthan on the fixed keel
I fully agree that in order to achieve the same CG a swinging keel has to be deeper than a fixed T-keel and that the slimmer design will indeed result in a larger wet surface and therefore more drag. I only hope the higher aspect ratio will compensate this with less drift upwind.

The point I wanted to make is that a keel with a composite foil and a lead ballast (as Structure does with the canting keels) will perform better than exactly the same design made in cast iron (as most other builders do).

JPK also offered this kind of high-tech, high-aspect composite/lead swinging keel option, but they have now dismissed it. I wonder why, because the ability to switch from maximum performance to minimum draft in only minutes can be a very valuable option in high tide and often shoal sailing waters like ours.

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Regarding the weight of your boatI would very much liked to see its "real" weight because I have some difficulty in believing in the 5500Kg that are given by the factoryThe designer gives it more weight and I would still be waiting to see a boat that could be made with less weight than the one that is given by a designer like FinotNormally the finished boat has more weightnot less
I also wondered about these differences in given weight. Could this be because of different standards when considering weight and load (with our without certain items) between the architect and the builder, or are these measures always well defined ans standardised?

In my experience Structures has always been very honest with all their information. And I believe the infusion building technique results in much lesser weight differences than e.g. hand lay-up does.
But I will certainly inform you whenever I get the opportunity to weigh our boat. And of course only after our “weight watcher” Jim has removed all the completely useless gear Mum and Dad have accumulated

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Regarding that less comfortable motion against the waves due to a "pendulum effect" I believe you are wrongWhen there are waves there is wind and the boat will be strongly "tied" to a side by the wind force and there is no wave that is going to make it roll from one side to the other. As I have explained the substantially bigger beam on the Pogo will make him less comfortable on waves due to a superior wave drag.

What you saying related with the pendulum effect can happen downwind but not in a boat like the JPK that has already a considerable beam and a lot of form stabilityThat would happen surely on the Aspect 40 if the crew is not on top of it and by crew I don't mean a single guy;) 
In any circumstances the boat has absolutely no tendency to roll, I can confirm that.
I only thought the 3m deep keel could induce more pitching when sailing upwind and against waves. I’m happy to hear this is no real issue, one more lesson learned Paulo!

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The JPK 38 has not only a considerable beam but also a hull shape that don't allow great angles of heel, like the Pogo. The JPK 38 is really a mix between the hull shape of a Pogo and that for instance of an A35, trying to get advantages from both sides. Off course it will not be as good downwind as a Pogo, but will be more comfortable and better upwind (taking into consideration the different sizes of the boats) or at least is how I see it;). 
I fully agree that the JPK looks like a wonderful performance cruiser and that it will make many a sailor very happy.
That could even include me, if only it hadn’t an interior with so many doors Although it’s easier to replace doors by curtains than the other way


Best regards,

Eric

P.S. My first try at "multi quoting", I obviously didn't get it all right...
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Last edited by EricKLYC; 05-12-2012 at 08:30 PM.
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  #2483  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi all,

Here some sailingshots of my brand new Salona 38. I bought it from the design drawings last summer.

I've sailed some 300 miles so far and I must say the boat exceeds my expectations, by far.

Easy to handle, responsive on the helm, great quality and interior and fast, fast!

Cheers, Eric
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Interesting Sailboats-img_0194-ps-pica-sm.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-img_0203-ps-pica-sm.jpg  
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  #2484  
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Salona 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noordzee View Post
Hi all,

Here some sailingshots of my brand new Salona 38. I bought it from the design drawings last summer.

I've sailed some 300 miles so far and I must say the boat exceeds my expectations, by far.

Easy to handle, responsive on the helm, great quality and interior and fast, fast!

Cheers, Eric
Hi, welcome to the sailnet and welcome to this thread. That is a coincidence...I mean your name: Are you Eric or are you sending cheers to Eric, the one that posted before you?

Beautiful boat eh! eh! I almost bought one. I give up not on account of the boat but because it was just a bit over my budget.

You say that bought it by the drawings last summer. Last summer I had already sailed the prototype

What keel do you have? What was your previous boat? Tell us more about the boat, particularly more details about that "fast, fast!".

The development of the Salona 38 was closely followed on this thread, I am very interested in what you have to say as well as several members, so please give us more details.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-13-2012 at 07:28 AM.
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Re: Pogo 12.50 - JPK 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
PHP Code:
The problem of those designs has to do with going fast upwind with waves

The bigger the waves the worse is the performanceThat has to do with wave drag that is increasing exponentially in that boat when crashing through wavesmaking it lose more power than the one the boat can generate over other type of boatsOf course the big power needed to go on those conditions and the big wave drag make also the boat very uncomfortable in that particular case. 
Our very first experiences in strong wind-against-tide conditions tend to confirm this. It needs quite hard work at the helm to keep the boat comfortable.
That type of boats has a big beam but has I have showed with some designs made by Finot the "footprint" of the boat, the wet area, is not bigger than on a narrow boat when the boat is sailing. It has even advantages because as it is a diagonal one it has a bigger LWL. The wet area has to do with weight and surface of keel and rudder and the Pogo is very well design in what concerns that and not only that

The problems going upwind with waves has to do with this:

When the boat passes a wave, the wet area increases as the wave passes through the hull, the bigger the wave more the hull boat will be "surrounded" by the wave and in this case the drag is not only that little footprint, but most of the hull surface and here that big beam and big overall hull surface represents a huge disadvantage regarding a narrow boat.

The narrow one will also be "surrounded" by the wave but because its hull surface is a lot smaller the wave drag will be a lot smaller.

Narrow boats, even with a big draft and lots of ballast will not manage to have the RM (Power) of an open type boat. What happens is that till a certain size of wave and sea condition the Open type of boat is capable of compensate its bigger wave draft with sheer power at the cost of a bigger pounding.

After a given sea condition and size and type of wave even all that extra power will not be able to compensate the increased wave drag and the narrow boat will go away with a much more softer ride, wasting less energy in its movement because the sea and waves offers much less resistance to its movement.

Of course that narrow boat will be much worse downwind because downwind you don't get wave drag and the flat and bigger hull makes less pressure over the water (not so deep in the water for the same weight) and helps the boat to surf sooner. The control of the boat is also better with less roll motion.

Racing boats or fast boats chose different types of compromises between those two contradictory requirements in what regards hull shape associated with the required ballast to each shape of hull. That has implications on the final weight of the boat and that has also to do with the boat performance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post

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I have saw that 40 class racersthat are a much more powerful boat than your Pogohave not good performances when they got nasty weather upwindOn the last "around NZ race really nasty weather lead to the abandon of the Pogo 40 class racer that was having a bad performance, beaten even by narrow old boats, but that were really very bad conditions. Other boats with the same type of design also experienced difficulties and an overall bad performance. The guys on the Pogo were good, they are one of the main racing teams on that side of the world and the only one that races (for years) with a 40class boat on ocean races. It is the same team that had made several Sydney-Hobart with that boat. 
These kinds of boats perform very differently in different kinds of races. No wonder, they are after all “open” designs resulting from so called “box rules”. But I still cannot explain why the 8.50’s performed so badly in the Transquadra and 10.50’s didn’t even compete, while the 6.50’s keep on killing everybody in the Mini Transat, since both are mainly downwind races.
The racing Pogos are excellent boats that performs well racing. The Pogos on the mini category among the production boats were always winners and it is obvious that in what regards 6.5m boats that is the shape of hull that performs better solo on downwind races. I have to look better to see if they have some limitation regarding ballast, but I think we can assume that.

The hull shape that performs better is not a fixed equation it changes with length, becoming proportionality less beamy. It could have to do with that associated with the ballast differences a narrower hull will require for a competitive power (a bigger ballast ratio).

The answer is I don't know. First the hard facts and then an hypothesis to explain those facts. I am afraid here I am still looking and collecting the hard facts:

Even if that raises suspicion, a Pogo 10.50 never made the Transquadra and even if it had made I would only take conclusions on several boats, preferably sailed by top teams.

Last year an Opium 39 raced with not bad results, even was the first to arrive on Madeira among the ones that come from Barcelona (smaller number) but when they all raced together to Martinique the boat (or the crew) was not a match for the faster boats and smaller boats like the A31, JPK 10.10 and 9.6, Sunfast 32 and A35 that was the first to arrive.

Of course this has to do with short crew (solo or duo) good amateur sailing, on a downwind transat and I really need to have more boats of that type racing to reach a conclusion even if the fact that the Pogo 8.5 is not a contender on that race is an hard evidence.

Regards

Paulo
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New boat: Scuderia 50

Another Italian beauty from Adria sail the ones that make the Brenta. The Brenta are more luxury fast boats that can occasionally race. These ones are performance cruisers that can do really well on the race track, kind of a GT Ferrari

The boat, designed by Felci, is beautiful and the interiors are not the ones of a racer but very nice cruising interiors.

It is a Carbon boat that weights only 8000kg and I am sure a good part of those kg are ballast in a torpedo keel.

Like most Italian boats it has a medium beam (4.25m) and a draft that can go from 2.4m to 3.7m (if used mostly for racing). With almost 150 sq m of sail this baby is a powerful contender and not only a very nice sail boat.














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A27 and A31

Some new images of the new A27 sailing and also some of the also new MC 34 that he have talked about here:

Interesting Sailboats





and also some images of of its bigger brother, a great small offshore boat, the A31, a boat that can hit a big whale at speed and get away with it






Last edited by PCP; 05-15-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 05-14-2012
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AG2R Transat

They arrived. I have said that for the last podium place there would be a big fight, but I never suspected it would be so big: Jeanne et Veniard versus Paul et Fabien. On the last hours of the race they have changed position 4 times and almost over the line jeanne manage to overtake them one last and final time, the 5th time

For once first the images of that fight. The first boat on the Images is the one from Tabarly that was second, after together the Jeanne and Paul boats.



and of course "King" Morvan and Dalin winning the race:

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Re: Aspect 40

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Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
I can share with you some information about a swedish boat, that probably isn´t to famous around Europe. This is acutally not a brand new design, the prototype was built in 2007 and I think the first production boat was launched 2009. It is a bit of a contrast to the Pogos I would say. Here is the Aspect 40:



...
More info and pictures on Aspect40 (in swedish). Some quick specs:

Length 11,95 m
Beam 3,20 m
Depth 2,14 m
Weight 4,400 kg
Main 44 sqm
Jib 38 sqm
Code 0 88 sqm
A2 125 sqm

This is also a fast cruiser that I could consider. It´s a shame it doesn´t come with a swing keel though

Mr W



I guess your are going to like this: The guys from Hamnen tested The Aspect 40 upwind against a 15 year old design, a boat that is a Pogo predecessor, in flat water with about 12K wind, this boat:



This is a Bergstrom & Ridder 38, also a Swedish boat and one well ahead of its time. The boat has a swing keel similar to the Pogo but the beam is more like the one on the JPK, in fact a bit less, with only 3.86m also with the beam brought back. This one has also water ballasts but they seem not have given them much use with this kind of wind.


Well, in flat water the boat with old sails had a similar performance as the bigger Aspect 40. I guess things would be different with waves but downwind the B&R 38 would smoke the Aspect 40.

This confirms my opinion that the balance to very narrow boats only give them advantages on some particular cases and that a medium beamy boat is an overall better performer even in what concerns racing with a crew.

The movie:





Here the test description and some photos of the boat interior:

B&R 38 vs Aspect 40


Bob Perry said already back in 1997 about this boat:

The new 38 is a visionary approach to cruising yacht design.

Bergstrom & Ridder 38

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-14-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Smile Re: Salona 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi, welcome to the sailnet and welcome to this thread. That is a coincidence...I mean your name: Are you Eric or are you sending cheers to Eric, the one that posted before you?

Beautiful boat eh! eh! I almost bought one. I give up not on account of the boat but because it was just a bit over my budget.

You say that bought it by the drawings last summer. Last summer I had already sailed the prototype

What keel do you have? What was your previous boat? Tell us more about the boat, particularly more details about that "fast, fast!".

The development of the Salona 38 was closely followed on this thread, I am very interested in what you have to say as well as several members, so please give us more details.

Hi Paolo,

Indeed my name is Eric.

My previous boat was an Enter 360 (which was an newer version of the more know Diva 355/35). The 'main' reason for buying another ship was the need of 3 cabins. Having four kids and dutch weather made the old ship a small place for 6. Moreover the Enter has 2 cabins and no beds in the saloon.

I saw your report on the Salona 38. I bought the Salona the weekend of the launch by Dean Barker.

Initially I had my mind set on a Xp38, based upon the initial pricing of the Xp44 I had an idea of what the Xp38 should cost. All in all the price of a Xp38 is way too expensive. In my mind at least 50.000 euro.

What I really like about the Salona 38 is that the deck layout is great, the hardware (winches, block etc) of very good quality (all Harken). It is well build and the NX2 hardware is also nice to work with. The only minor point the size of the bathroom. (I saw the one on the Xp38, but that one makes the saloon very small).

Although after sailing 300 miles give me a very good feeling, in terms of true performance I still need to measure, some speeds, one thing that needs sorting out is the headsail 106% of which the clew was too low. What I like is that the boat is very responsive. For now I've reached 9.8 on 60 dgrs app. in 16 knots and 12.6 on 140 dgrs app in 20-24 knots wind in (relative) flat water.

The Salona 38 I've got had a 'standard' hull and rigg and keel. So Iron keel, no vacuum infusion hull, no rod rigging.

That was for two reasons, at some point, you run out of money, and I gonna use the boat for 98% for cruising. However I did opt for Pentex (grey) sails.

This weekend I'm gonna try the modified headsail and the gennaker.

Regards, Eric
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