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Interesting Sailboats

3M views 7K replies 205 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 · (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.

Small cruisers (less than 35ft)

Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;

Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft


Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)


Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)

Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;

Sailing boats over 49ft

Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;

Racers

Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;

Lifting keel/centerboarder

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;

Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;

Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;

Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Sirius 35

Sirius 35:

Some months ago I have been inside that one, in the Dusselodorf Boat show. I chose to present the videos from the 32 because the quality of the first pictures of the 35ft is bad and doesn't make justice to the boat. I think they have finished that boat just in time for the show and had no time to make proper photos.

The 35 is a beautiful boat with a great interior.

preview image
preview image

And a strong boat (don't try this on an Oceanis:D ).

preview image

I have liked the boat so much that I have even considered to change my plans of buying a 40/42 to have that one (and my wife would not mind at all and she is a pain in the ass in what regards the minim storage space for a decent cruising boat). Unfortunately the boat is considerable more expensive than a 42 mass production sailboat.

I will post some pictures with the items that have impressed me most, and add some comments:

1- The steering wheel is a knock-out. It is of considerable size to ensure the most comfortable position while sailing, or to be taken out of the way to give passage, it swings from one side to another, or remains in the central position. Take also a look at the very neat arrangement of the bow anchor and to the well designed bath platform and passage to the cockpit.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Bathing Platform | Bathing Platform

2- Look at the oilskin locker, right where it is supposed to be, on the boat's entrance to the interior, with dedicated space for wet boots, lots of space for jackets and an interior light. I know of very few 50ft that offer such a good and convenient space dedicated to oilskins.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Oilskins Locker | Oilskins Locker
Sirius-Werft Plön | Your individual yacht | Your individual yacht

3 - Click on the last two pictures and see why my wife likes this one. These guys are perfectionists to the point of obsession. Look at all that storage space and in the way all space is used the best possible way to be useful.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Pantry | Pantry

4-Look at the main room. It is incredibly "open" and big for a 35ft. It is not very apparent on the photos, but this "room" has a nice view. Look at the size of the hull ports, or should I say "windows"? I believe they are the same that are used on the big Hanse (630). Look at the zenithal light that comes from the top (big hatch) and the small portlight for ventilation.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | Owner´s cabin

5 - Look at the front cabin that in many bigger boats would be a very good owner's cabin. It has a small sofa, like the other and also a small hull portlight. Plenty of light from above and lots of storage space. Look at the quality of the wood work.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Front cabin | Front cabin

6-Look at the size and quality of the head. Look at the completely separated shower room (on the opposite side of the head). Plenty of space, plenty of light. If you are taking a shower, the head remains available to be used by another person.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Shower & toilet room | Shower & toilet room

7-The photos of the saloon are really bad and don't give you any idea of the quality of the space, but you can see that besides the upper hatch you have two very good quality side waterproof openings of considerable size, for lateral ventilation and you may notice also that all "windows" are situated at the right height to give you a perfect all around view, while seated. These windows are made of safety-glass in double aluminum frames. The windows are approved for world-wide cruise for impact of breaking waves.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Saloon | Saloon

8-You have a big technical room, and it is not only big but with the right things in the right places; I mean you have a work bench and dedicated space to store all that stuff that you need to have, but never know where to store it.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technic Room | Technic Room

9-This boat has a standard draft of 1.9M (lots of options) and in that configuration a lead ballast of 2.6T, for a total weight of 7.4T. That means that this boat will have more ballast than an Oceanis 43 (2.5T).
This means that this boat, with a very good ballast/displacement ratio, will have a very good stability with special relevance to the reserve stability.

10-This boat, notwithstanding the huge amount of interior space is not a beamy boat, with a 3.45M as max beam and only 3.15 on the waterline. For example, an Oceanis 34 will have 3.65 as max. beam. This points to an easily driven hull that will go well against the wind with not much pounding.

11-The boat has a 22 m² self-tacking jib, main sail 29 m² (automatic single line reefing) that will not be much for a 7.4T boat, but will guarantee a boat that will be easily handed in bad weather. The drawings show a big geenaker well positioned way from the front sail. This can be a fixed sail mounted on a roller, it is an option and it has 90m2. It will work like a giant genoa and will give the punch needed to sail well with weak winds.

12-This boat can have optionally a 55hp engine. This will give the boat almost the capabilities of a motor-sailor. A motor sailor that is also a good sailing boat;) .

13-This boat comes with a good standard inventory, including teak decks and has a list of optional that includes bullet proof windows among a lot of other more useful items like full batten mainsail and a redesigned mast for cutter stay with a second roller furling system.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Technical datas | Technical datas

14-There is something that I don't like? Yes, I don't like the anchor locker and the impossibility to have an easy access to the chain on the bottom. I will prefer an open well and the winch situated on the opposite position (back), but that is easy to change and these guys will tailor the boat to your needs. I believe that they have learned a lot with the modifications that their clients had done in their boats and I believe also that they have mostly good and experienced sailors as clients, because the final result is a very sophisticated and practical sailboat.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Anchor Locker | Anchor Locker

15-A final note about the hull design: I will bet that you are going to look at these sleek hull lines and are going to think: How the hell is it possible to put that huge interior on this sleek hull? You will not be the first one:D .

preview image
preview image
preview image

This is a Great sailing boat, a boat that will raise admiration among all true sailors. A boat that will permit to cruise comfortably and living aboard without the extra costs that a bigger boat will inevitably bring (costs of marinas, maintenance, antifouling and so on). This boat will be a lot more easy to sail and mainly, a boat a lot more easy to put in and out of a tight marina.

Regards

Paulo
 
#7 ·
You mean this Schmidt Boatyard:

YouTube - Made in Germany | Boatbuilder Michael Schmidt

Eight years ago I went to the Hamburg boat show to buy a Hanse (34ft). It turns out that the front cabin was too small for my size:D and I ended up with a Bavaria 36. The guys from Bavaria proposed me a far better deal.

The Hanse are good boats. I would rate them for instance over Beneteau and under Dehler in what regards boat quality (by the way, they have bought Dehler).

They have a very good boat forum, supported by the manufacturer. We know that all boats have issues, but they have the courage to bring it all to the open. This permits the manufacturer to have a better understanding of what is wrong and what they need to change. They have a good after sales service and generally clients are satisfied and proud of their boats.

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum

It's a medium size manufacturer that is increasing in size and becoming a big one. But their boats are not in the same league as Sirius boats, not in quality, not in price.

Regards

Paulo
 
This post has been deleted
#8 · (Edited)
Sirius 31



Jim, this is the 31ft, the one that is going to substitute the 32. I believe that the interiors will be very similar but the hull is much more modern (and faster) and the outside design is much more elegant. They are building the first one.

On the last "Voile" (French) Magazine there is a small insert about the boat.
They call it "Le roi du salon de pont"- The king of the deck salons. A small king, but nevertheless, a king:D

It will cost around 130 000 euros (without VAT)







Regards

Paulo
 
#9 · (Edited)
Sirius 35

Last post about Sirius Yachts:

I will finish with some nice renderings of the 35. It is really a good looking boat. you have a lot of information about this one (and more pictures) at the post nº 10 of this thread.





The next boat in this thread, unless someone wants to post another one, will be quite the opposite to SIRIUS.

A small and very inexpensive daysailer and basic mini-cruiser. It is a very old and a very new boat:D

It was once a huge sucess in Europe...and it will be again. In two months they have sold more than 50. You buy it through the internet, it is a 18ft sailingboat and it costs 10 000 euros, about half the price of other similar sized boat.

Do you want to guess?

Regards

Paulo
 
#10 · (Edited)
Pogo 10.50

It seems that nobody is interested in a 10 000 euros 18ft basic cruiser made by one of the most reputable European boat builders, so I am going to change subject, I mean, boat.

I would like to talk about some interesting and fast marginal cruising boats that are being a success in Europe. Not big, because the market they are pointing to is not a big one, but big enough to have them built in a production line. Pogo, in one year have sold 40 of their new 10.5 and Wauquiez have discontinued the production of their 40ft cruiser-racer and are manufacturing one of these.

Normally around here, when you talk of a fast cruiser, you are talking of a cruiser-racer, boats with a relatively good (or even very good) interior, made for fast cruising and for club racing, with a crew and most of them optimized for IRC racing. Boats like First, Performance line by Dufour, Performance line by Elan, Dehler, X-yacht, Arcona, Finngulf are just some examples. These boats are better sailing boats, adapted to cruising, more seaworthy and more expensive than their pure cruising siblings.

But the boats that I am talking about have little in common with these boats, First they are not designed taking into account any rule, except the design rules to make them faster and safer, second they are not aiming at crews, but at the solo sailor and third they have not luxury interiors, but solid, light and functional interiors, I would say very basic interiors. They make the sailing part of cruising the principal object of their design.

They are the opposite of modern mass production boats. While for the typical mass production cruiser, living at the marina is one of the principal design directives, on these ones, sailing is what matters, and having pleasure while doing it, the objective:D . These babies are made to go fast and away, out on the bluewater and can outperform any of the cruiser-racers that I have referred to….I mean a 35ft of these can outperform any 40ft of those:D .

As you can suspect, I am a big fan, but unfortunately, even produced in small series these boats are expensive. They are made with the best materials, hi-tech everywhere except on the furniture and, as I have said on another thread, a very good and well built sailing boat with a basic interior will be much more expensive than a basic sailboat with a good interior and I would add, unfortunately:eek: .

Let us talk about the Pogo 10,5. I will post some photos and the link….and if you are interested, just ask and I can probably add some more information. If you like it, please post some feedback.












Regards

Paulo
 
#12 ·
PCP,
I have always enjoyed your posts, and look forward to more of them.
I've spent 15 years living over in Europe, work there now, and am somewhat familiar with the European sailboat manufacturers. That said, I personally prefer the J109 (built in France?) to the Pogo 10.5. You want to discuss one against the other?
 
#14 ·
Having sailed a 109 but only been on the 10.50 here's an initial take. The 109 is a cruiser/racer. The 10.50 is an offshore/cruiser.

The 109 has more creature comforts down under but is more cramped, less airy, and has less stowage and space. Above deck it is really well thought out but the wheel & main track positioning clutters up the latter half of the cockpit. It is a well built boat that is a bit of a do it all design from a pointing perspective. Sails and responds well. Certainly not worth (in my opinion) the premium compared to other boats in the range - SF32, 34.7, Dehler34, etc... 90's design before widespread planing hulls that can point (Finot et al)

The 10.50 is a more spartan environment underdeck but it is pretty open and airy. Decent stowage and although it's not classy, the drawers & lockers just work. The team really applied the KISS principle and although the lack of wood grain & trim may be an initial turn off given the price, there's a lot of smart thinking that's gone into it. Above deck it is a very well laid out cockpit and controls are readily available for singlehanding. Dual tiller opens up the space at anchor and there's room for the whole crew. the boat is very well made - feels rock solid and very well built - easy access to systems and areas of potential repair. Crashbox up front and excellent deck hardware. You can tell from my previous post that I'm a fan. This boat can point and maintain speed and off wind it's a monster! That's the 2 for 1 deal with some of these modern designs vs. the J boats these days. You get it all AND the swing keel to get where the other boats of half the performance can't reach. I see this as the near perfect boat for the sailing crowd that doesn't mind the lack of wood trim and some creature comforts.

I can easily see going on that 3 month family cruise, then a year later doing the ARC, then island hopping on the weekends, then heading off into the yonder for another destination. I'll take the concession of not having woodgrain & felt interiors for a boat that will regularly hit 13-15 kts safely off-wind and open up so many more navigation zones for short trips because of this. That's just me.
 
#13 ·
The 10.50 has forced me to go back to work - I just need one!!!

The guys at the shipyard are very nice and welcoming. The boat is beautiful and it just works like a charm. Quite practical & livable as well - just a do it all sailboat that will get you from point A to point B in no time.
 
#16 ·
Paulo,

Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................

I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!

Both are beauty's in there own right.

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

If any one of the 4 would show up in my slip to replace my 85 Jeanneau Arcadia, no big deal, I'd be a HAPPY camper......ooops......Sailor!

Marty
 
#17 · (Edited)
Sunfast 3200

Interesting that Finot's personal boat is a P10.50. Daniel Andreau(sp?) whom designed the SF3200 also has an SF3200 for family usage too. The only boat he has designed that he also has bought and sails. Not sure what that means................

I have to admit, I like these style of boats. Granted the SF3200 and the P10.50 are different price zones, ie the Pogo is x2 of the sf3200, as such one would expect the pogo to have higher tech items on board, without reading the specs, would assume a carbon vs alum mast, from posts, a lift keel(?) vs fixed on the SF. I would suspect some Carbon or kevlar fiber reinforcement and epoxy vs FRP for the SF. BUT< both have the same general design spec as to whom might want them. Not sure I can afford the Pogo, but the SF I could!

Both are beauty's in there own right.

The J109 on the other hand, also a beauty in her own right, along with the slightly smaller J97. Reality is as mentioned, the J's and the SF/Pogo have different design specs, target audience, etc.

Marty
Yes, I agree. The Jeanneau 3200 has a place on this thread.

It is a very interesting boat, it has nothing in common with other jeanneau boats and has a very surprising price, possible because the boat is built by Jeanneau in relatively large numbers. It is also a small fast oceangoing boat, very adapted to solo sailing and designed in the open boat tradition (minis and open 60's).

I believe it that it is very revealing that both the 10.50 and the 3200 Designers have chosen to buy them as their personal boats. That gives you also an image of the typical French boat designer that, I believe it is different than most boat designers around the world: They love fast sailing boats, have their roots in racing sailing boats, particularly solo and small crew ocean racing sailboats. They are not only designers, but also sailors and it says a lot that both of them think that the most enjoyable boat to cruise is a light fast boat with a light but practical interior.

Daniel Andrieu have designed a lot of racing boats, from Class America boats to the 90's most popular French monotype, the Jod 35.

AndrieuDesign - Achievements - Sail

I am going to have some days of vacations and I am going to travel, for a week or so, in the UK (Southeast), so I will not be around, but I would like to invite Marty to post on this thread about the Sunfast 3200 and ask BB74 to answer questions or to continue the discussion on the Pogo 10.5. After all it seems he is going to have one, while my wife has threaten me with divorce, if I buy one. He has also been inside one while I have only been inside its big brother, the 40class boat.

Just to open the Sunfast 3200 presentation, some videos about it:

Transquadra - Transat solitaire et double réservée aux amateurs.




Regards

Paulo
 
#18 ·
There's a 3 year wait list on the Pogo 10.50 for a reason. Having said that some could be looking to swap options to a later date so last I spoke a 2013 delivery schedule could work... Last I spoke with the builders, there were a few slots late 2013 but that was 2 months ago so you never know...

I've not yet bought one, but my wife is OK with it so once we do the trial by fire with the kids in May on another boat, it may be tough not to write the check... I'll keep you posted.

190K € is a lot of coin but the good thing is with the demand, and the controlled volumes, the resale actually holds very well on these boats. Same can be said for the 8.50, not so much for the Open 40 given it's pure racing focus. Knowing there is a high probability you can sell the boat if the need arises and at a good rate is a comfort vs. ponying up top dollar for more mass market boats that may take a big hit (31.7, 34.7, etc, etc). Overall there will be a premium for usage but I don't think on a 5 year basis it would cost more than a 20K€ difference between going with a 10.50 or a more mainstream boat - that's a reasonable trade off for some to get this type of boat but I freely admit, it's reach for quite a few.
 
#19 ·
Paulo,

have a good vacation.

Here is an english SF3200 site, just do the .com part for french, or hit the french flag in lower left.

sunfast3200, Sail boat

This is supposed to be the equal to a half an open 60. If funds were there, one about 3-4' or about 1-1.5 meters longer would be nicer frankly. But if one ended up in my slip, I'd be a happy camper!

Hopefully this depression the US is having ends sooner than later so I can maybe order a new one. if not, then if I am lucky, someday maybe I can find a used one. I might have to go to Europe, oh well, buy use, do the transquandra, sail to east cost US, truck up here to the NW US! or sail thru panama up left coast to Washington where I am.......hmmmmmm.......

There are a few JOD 35's around here. one won a SH trans atlantic race last summer.

Another that interests me is the Beneteau Figarou(sp?) but the chance of getting one here in the states is slimmer than slim. It is not even listed on the US site, the European sites list it. I have not had a chance to really look it over, but from what I can tell, similar specs design usage of the SF/Pogo boats. Then again, an Open 40 would be kewl too!

Marty
 
#20 ·
the new Figaro are really race boats. Undersides are all about carrying extra sails & rigging so I couldn't see refitting for a family type cruise. It's the difference between camping and doing outdoors bivouac if you see what I mean. They are ocean going boats however and work very well. I haven't been on the new model but have been on the previous one. Very technical rigging and you need to tune, tune, tune to get the best out of them.
 
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#21 ·
RM's - nice but haven't sailed on one visited in boat shows.

Pretty good reputation as a do anything boat, but no-where near the performance of the Pogo, Bongo, etc type builds. Well thought out, a number of transat & other trips. Pricey but again, good reputation with the builders & owners.
 
#25 · (Edited)
RM 1050 / Twin keels



That's not possible cause I have not one:D but I think all of them (10.50) are twin keel. Everybody goes with the twins.

The shipyard says about it:

"Jusqu'à aujourd'hui, nous étions et restons totalement convaincus de l'excellence des biquilles conçus par Marc Lombard et mis en œuvre chez RM : tirant d'eau réduit, couple de rappel optimisé, plan anti-dérive parfait, stabilité de route, capacité à échouer, performances étonnantes à toutes les allures.
Ce principe de biquilles performantes, que nous sommes les seuls au monde à exploiter, reste un des axes fondamentaux de notre politique. Cependant, autant nos clients français en ont parfaitement compris la pertinence, autant les marchés export restent dubitatifs&#8230;

A la demande de nos importateurs dans les différents pays où RM est présent (Espagne, Italie, Norvège, Grande Bretagne), nous avons décidés de proposer une version GTE (Grand tirant d'Eau) en monoquille pour les RM1050 et RM1200. Marc Lombard travaille actuellement sur les dessins de quilles, de sorte que nous puissions équiper les RM1050 et RM1200 qui le demanderont à compter de l'automne 2008."

I mean, if you really want, they will make you a single keel (only proposed very recently) but the original concept is a Twin. The twin keels are almost as performant as the single (minimal difference really) and have the added advantage of less draft and the possibility of putting the boat out of the water, for small repairs or antifouling, or just to go at the beach:D .

The single keel is proposed more for the 1200 and especially for the 1350, for the guys that want to do offshore racing. They are not ridiculous at that. An RM 1200 has done well on a med offshore race against racing boats (3th and 4th) and this 1350 (look at the link) is going to race the "Route du Rhum" (famous and big transat) and I bet that it is going to be among the first cruisers-racers, if not the first (and the boat was not even designed as a cruiser-racer, but as a fast cruiser):

RM YACHTS | Actualités

Regards

Paulo
 
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#34 · (Edited)
Daysailer, Morris yachts

....
...
I do know and understand that in Europe the smaller builders do a bit better than here in NA. Not to say there are not some smaller builders, BUT, the ones that do build here, seem to build "Old Shoes" shall we say or call them. Getting a reasonable high tech style boat like the Pogo, SF3200 or equal is hard. There is someone I recall is starting to build a Transat 6.5 in Texas that is reasonable in price per say. BUT< that is WAY WAY to small for spouse and keeping her happy. There are a few smaller builders, but they do not generally speaking, other than Morris yachts in Maine, seem to have smaller runs of boats. I would not call the Morris boat yard a high tech yard like a pogo. They do build excellent yachts mind you, but not what I would call a style "Marty" wants!
...
Marty
Marty,

I believe that the reason why you have less "modern" small boat hi-tech builders in the NA is because unfortunately there are fewer sailors interested in these kinds of boats there.

I know Morris yard. I have talked with some of the guys on the 2008 Dusseldorf boat show. They have boats with incredible quality and finish at some incredible prices too:D . I like particularly the M series (traditional old style day sailors). Yes I like all kinds of beautiful boats:) . But Morris yard has nothing of a high tech shipyard. In what concerns hull design, not even the fastest and more ambitious design (the 51) can be considered modern.

Anyway I have to say, that modern or not, I find the Morris 46 (very classical) and the Morris 51 (more modern) very beautiful boats and if I could own one (specially the 51) I would be a happy man:) . Considering basic prices, no taxes and 2008 prices, the 46 was priced at around 800000USD and the 51 at 1140000USD. Considering taxes, actual prices and equipment, you can add at least 50% to that price. Why am I talking of such big boats? Because, by design (Hull), the interior of the Morris yachts is very small. The interior of the 46 has about the same interior space of, for instance, a Najad 410, or a RM 1200 and that's in the size I am interested in.

Daysailer | Morris Yachts
Morris 46 | Morris Yachts
Blue water sailboat | Morris Yachts

When talking about small American Hi-tech shipyard, the name that comes to my mind is Aerodyne. But looking better I found out that it is not really an American shipyard:( ...Well, we can say half American, because they use an American architect and I believe that a substantial part of their boats is sold in America (they have a dealer in America).

The Architect I am talking about is Roger Martin and he is responsible for some very interesting, fast and modern boats, American boats.

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

But probably the Aerodyne boat that is more interesting to this thread is a Finot design. The A-35. The A35 is a kind of precursor of the Pogo 10.50...designed and built 10 years earlier. It is still a very interesting boat.

But even with water ballast and a bulb keel, to have the kind of performance he wanted, Finot could not reduce the draft to less than 2.5M and that is unpractical for cruising. That's why he has directed his work and thoughts to a practical lifting keel, to obtain the same performance without losing the cruising practicability.

Read this boat test and see how the guys of a relatively conservative American magazine were impressed by the boat:

http://www.aerodyne.fi/assets/models/ad35/ad35_review.pdf
Aerodyne Yachts Ltd.

Regards

Paulo
 
#27 · (Edited)
Wow! That's my idea of fun. They are having so much fun they shout out of pleasure!!!:D

Thanks for the videos.

I know that a lot of guys are going to look at the videos and are going to say: That's a racing boat, for racing sailors.

No, it is not, it is a cruising boat for sailors that like to have pleasure while sailing. That's the same boat that we have posted about in this thread, the one that can pull the keel up and go right to the beach:) . If you take a good look you can see that the boat is going straight as an arrow and that the tiller guy is relaxed and the boat is fully in control while the other guys are just enjoying the ride.

Easy, fast and versatile....What a boat;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#28 · (Edited)
Exactly!

Stable at speed - you could be down under making coffee & a snack for the crew at 20 knots because the boat is stable at speed.

Even the upwind routes are pretty good, stability and pounding wise. I was supposed to do a test sail in April but calendars permitting, it may be more along the lines of May now.

Finot knows how to design boats and I can't wait to try this one!

and for those wondering about the Figaro (another Finot boat btw...)

 
#29 ·
Cool!
Andy Lepiarczyk sailed a Figaro single handed around the world last year.
I have spoken to him about it a number of times but haven't managed to see his boat yet "mighty chicken" Perhaps next time home I'll get a chance.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Voyage

Cool!
Andy Lepiarczyk sailed a Figaro single handed around the world last year.
I have spoken to him about it a number of times but haven't managed to see his boat yet "mighty chicken" Perhaps next time home I'll get a chance.
What a name for a boat:D :D :D

If someone want to know more about a 60 year old guy circunavigating in a small modern and fast boat:

West Van resident conquers open seas

Pogoria.org - Off Around the World

Be carefull with the last one. Unless you speack Pollish, click only on the links on the end of the page.

He says that the average speed was 132 miles a day. That gives an average of 5.5K. Not bad:)

Regards

Paulo
 
#31 ·
Hi Marty,
I owe Mr. Lepiarczyk a visit. You are welcome to join me. The last time I spoke to Andy, he welcomed me aboard his boat. To this date, I have always been overseas (as I am now) and have not been able to take him up on his offer. He is such a nice, accomodating guy. I can't wait to meet him. He just loves to talk about sailing, so he's got the right audience here!

He told me he couldn't find a suitable vessel in NA, so he flew over to France and singlehanded the boat back to Vancouver, via Panama. This guys got balls and my hat goes off to him. That's official.

We sometimes strive to emulate our Heroes, and that's my goal. To do what he did, but I want to take the love-of-my-life with me.
My ears are wide open, trying to keep mouth closed, and keep learning (fast!) :)
 
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#33 · (Edited)
Pogo swing keel

I looked up the Pogo the other day a bit more. About as I figured it would be different from a SF3200. Not sure the swing keel would be my cup of tea, but interesting none the less. For sailing here where I am, I would prefer a fixed keel version if there was one. ...Marty
The swing keel has nothing to do with a centerboard swing keel. On those the keel has no ballast, on the Pogo, all the keel is ballast and most of it is at the bottom (2.80M). If they had a fixed keel, to give the boat the same characteristics (big stability and low weight), they would have to put a keel with about the same draft. A boat with 2,8M draft would not be practical for cruising purposes...and the solution was the swing keel.

Regards

Paulo
 
#32 ·
When I first laid my eyes on the Pogo, I loved it, but then I eyeballed the swing keel and my heart sank. Because I do not want a gimacky boat. My next sail boat must be as simple as possible. I figured the swing keel was just another area of possible concern. Then PCP and BB74 come along and demonstrate that my original thinking may be off. I watch the videos and realize that perhaps I was too hasty. Certainly my initial opinion of the J109 has changd from listening to this thread. Anyway, the types of boats we are talking about in this thread is what I'm currently spending my research time on.

Drop me a PM and I'll arrange a meeting for us to see Mighty Chicken.
 
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#36 · (Edited)
Elan 310

In this months "Sailing" Bob Perry does a review of the dehler 32 and Elan 310. I like the look of the E310 more than the D32. Potentially a nicer interior than an SF3200, but probably a bit slower, and no where near the quality of the Pogo. I've heard Elan is a lower end European boat, but, that does not always mean it is a bad boat either. ....Marty
The Elan is not a low end quality boat. They have two lines, a cruising and a performance one. The performance one (like on the Beneteau, regarding the "First line") has a better quality and it is more expensive. The Elan 31 is from the performance line.

The Performance boats have a better quality than Beneteau, Jeanneau and Hanse. Perhaps the same quality of the performance line of Dufours (better than the cruising line of Dufours) and a little bit under Dehler and Gran Soleil. I don't know why, but the value of used boats is not so good (probably because there are a lot of people that think like you):) .

The 31 is a great boat (great designer). It has made quite an impression on the market (all the boat tests are very positive).

Look at this video:



And the next one, the Elan 35 looks even better:)

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

http://sail.elan-yachts.com/slike/plovila/e350/Elan_350_design_notes.pdf

Elan 350


Regards

Paulo
 
#35 · (Edited)
Quest 33, Roger Martin

Eh!eh! IT looks that I have found an interesting American sailboat, a modern and a very fast one. I had never heard about it. Does someone know the Quest boats? I have found them looking at the boats designed by Roger Martin: Find a good designer and you will find good boats:)

Roger Martin says about it:

"The Quest 33 is a superb example of a fast contemporary "club racer" in which a family can comfortably cruise, and win 'round-the-buoys or point-to-point races under PHRF. These boats are Open Designs, and are not based on any restrictive rules! The Quest 33 is a development of the successful Quest 30, designed by us and built by Holby Marine Co.
The Quest 33 offers a finer entry for increased upwind speed, a longer waterline for greater speed all 'round and larger interior and cockpit spaces. ...

This is a proven fast sailplan in PHRF, fast coastal passages & even in the Singlehanded TransAtlantic Race! while for cruising the boat has all the power you need from the mainsail & 100% jib. The ingenious bowsprit shoots out at the pull of a line for setting the asymmetrical spinnaker. Wide traveler, vang and halyard give infinite tuning power to the mainsail.
....
The Quest 33 is faster than many boats 5 & 10 feet longer! This boat is a PHRF winner! The sailplan is highly refined and easy to use & adapt, and the fin-keel & rudder are the latest, thin, high-aspect foil designs.
The design is based on the same principals as the Open Class 'round the world BOC racers & is unspoiled by slavish following of arcane 'racing' rules. These are called 'handicaps' for good reason! Yet a family cruising with ease will make very fast trips from port to port, & have the pleasure of gliding by bigger boats during a daysail.

The Quest 33 provides sportboat-like performance in a stable, easy-to-sail boat with generous cruising space in the cockpit and interior. "

Rodger Martin Yacht Design

Holby Marine Company - Quest 33

Regards

Paulo

Edit: PS- It looks that NA really don't like fast boats:

"After 25 years of being in business, Holby Marine Company has closed its doors for business. As a former leading edge composite boat manufacturer, the company is offering for sale the molds on the Pilot line of power boats and the Quest line of racing yachts. The sale will take place on May 4, 2010 at our former manufacturing location ..."

Holby Marine Company - Leading composite boat manufacturer, yachts, sailboats, powerboats, skiffs, Quest 33, Yacht Manufacturers
 
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#37 ·
Also Marty a smaller builder will have a higher unit cost than a larger volume builder even if the boats were identical. ....
Yes I agree. If the boat is produced in large numbers I believe that the difference can be almost 50%.

That's not only the best prices you can have on all the hardware needed (if you buy 400 winches instead of 10, you would have a large discount and the same applies for masts, hatches, windlasses and so on) but also the hours of labor that you can cut using industrial robots. But those are very expensive and to have them you need a large prodution facility.

The price of boats is not proportional to their quality. More expensive boats tend to have better quality, but not in proportion with prices.

That makes specially interesting medium boat manufacturers like Elan, Hanse, RM, Grand Soleil, that are growing and becoming bigger, modernising their production units and proposing boats that are different than the ones produced by Hunter, Bavaria and Beneteau (mainstream) at prices that are affordable, even if not comparable.

But even if those Brands are having success, not all of the medium good quality manufacturers have done it. Dehler, whose quality was recognized by everyone didn't make it. Probably its offer was not the right one and the boats competed too closely with mainstream producers, like the ones from First and Dufour(performance), that could sell similar products for less money.

Regards

Paulo
 
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