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post #2681 of 6763 Old 07-09-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

It was a surprise for me.

I agree with you about the information is very scarce.

I go often to Brasil, but seems that their market is more directed for motorboats.

Jeaneau and other brands have dificults to sale their products to this country because this country has a lot of taxes.

Thats all i know.

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post #2682 of 6763 Old 07-09-2012
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Re: Grand Soleil 39

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don’t understand how you get that impression. The boat tested was the one with the performance package, the racers version, with a bigger mast and more sail, a more nervous boat to maximize performance with a crew and even so:

Out of her element?... She certainly looks every bit the Italian performance cruiser. She has minimum wetted surface, a deep T-keel and a high ballast ratio to support a large sail area…but how she would cope in our less hospitable waters?

…The newspapers were saying that the UK was colder than Iceland with a force 5-6 blowing from the Northeast.

…Despite being what I consider to be a classic Med design, The GS 39 surprised me here by coping with these conditions admirably, pointing high, keeping good speed and most notably not slamming on the shop…provide a soft and comfortable ride through the waves.

..The close-hauled romp back into Southampton waters was enjoyable and spirited giving us the taste of the agility she promises in flat water, but once again, it paid to be quick with the sheets in a gust , as there is little warning of a rounding up.


The only negative comment he makes is about a too neutral steering and off course that is debatable. Like on a sports car if you have a very sensitive steering you have to watch out not spin the car but if you can handle it the pleasure, effectiveness and swiftness are all positive points. I guess that it is a boat that needs time to adapt too. Anyway that makes it a better racer.

Regarding what you say: "humbled at the Hamble"

They say exactly the opposite:

“Humbled off the Hamble”. Yes I know the English just phrase things oddly
.
I have read several boat tests of this boat and all said very positive things about it. It would be odd if the British, never minding their more conservative stance, said otherwise.

It is worth to point out the excellent stability curve of this boat with an unusually huge positive stability and very small inverted stability. The AVS is in concordance with that: Almost 140º.

Regards

Paulo

These are the quotes which set a warning tone for me:

"Unlike other recent Grand Soleil models, this boat had so far deprived me of that instant gratifying sensation on the wheel; it felt too neutral. With just the mainsail, we rounded up – not surprising without the balance of a jib – but it then happened again, not once but numerous times during our trial with no warning from the rudder."

From the conclusion:

"The GS39’s high ballast ratio and tall rig equals power. I know we were really putting her through her paces, but I’d like a bit more authority over that power personally, rather than the skinny foils Maletto designs for America’s Cup boats."

"It’s a trade-off those looking for a performance edge must get used to – like a tuned-up family sports saloon, the 39 has plenty of grunt, but if you turn traction control off, a spin out is more likely. So you need to helm on numbers, not feel – and there wasn’t any of either – to drive the test boat with her rig set-up in the conditions we had. It must be remembered, though, that there were only three of us aboard to sail this brand new boat for the first time in 25 knots."

"But she failed to endear herself to me and seemed a bit stuck between fulfilling a racing and a cruising brief."

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome machine, and a very desirable one, but this Hodges is clearly pointing character traits which to performamce cruisers, may also be seen as defects.

It's interesting that as readers, we got very different impressions. Hey, maybe we need an Englishman to settle! But to say the least, it validates that Toby Hodges and YW reviews are serious, objective, transparent, and if there are some real concerns to point out about a tested yacht, they will not compromise and say it like it is.

Regards,
Hans
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post #2683 of 6763 Old 07-09-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Oh! i just realized you're now an Italian boat sailor! I'm calling you outright biased!!!. How's that Comet behaving lately? Hope you enjoyed your cruise!
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post #2684 of 6763 Old 07-09-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The Win34 was designed by Nestor Volker, who have a very good name in Argentina. He designed many local champions, their designs has success also here in Chile during the '80s and '90s.

I'm not sure but probably the Win43 is a Volker design too.
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post #2685 of 6763 Old 07-10-2012
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Re: Grand Soleil 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
These are the quotes which set a warning tone for me:

"Unlike other recent Grand Soleil models, this boat had so far deprived me of that instant gratifying sensation on the wheel; it felt too neutral. With just the mainsail, we rounded up – not surprising without the balance of a jib – but it then happened again, not once but numerous times during our trial with no warning from the rudder."

From the conclusion:

"The GS39’s high ballast ratio and tall rig equals power. I know we were really putting her through her paces, but I’d like a bit more authority over that power personally, rather than the skinny foils Maletto designs for America’s Cup boats."

"It’s a trade-off those looking for a performance edge must get used to – like a tuned-up family sports saloon, the 39 has plenty of grunt, but if you turn traction control off, a spin out is more likely. So you need to helm on numbers, not feel – and there wasn’t any of either – to drive the test boat with her rig set-up in the conditions we had. It must be remembered, though, that there were only three of us aboard to sail this brand new boat for the first time in 25 knots."

"But she failed to endear herself to me and seemed a bit stuck between fulfilling a racing and a cruising brief."

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome machine, and a very desirable one, but this Hodges is clearly pointing character traits which to performamce cruisers, may also be seen as defects.

It's interesting that as readers, we got very different impressions. Hey, maybe we need an Englishman to settle! But to say the least, it validates that Toby Hodges and YW reviews are serious, objective, transparent, and if there are some real concerns to point out about a tested yacht, they will not compromise and say it like it is.

Regards,
Hans
Hi Hans,

From reading the full article in the magazine there are a few tings i want to point out.

The boat tested had a performance rig fitted, 1 metre taller than the normal one.

Despite strong winds, they made little effort in reefing her down.
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post #2686 of 6763 Old 07-10-2012
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Re: Grand Soleil 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
These are the quotes which set a warning tone for me:

"Unlike other recent Grand Soleil models, this boat had so far deprived me of that instant gratifying sensation on the wheel; it felt too neutral. With just the mainsail, we rounded up – not surprising without the balance of a jib – but it then happened again, not once but numerous times during our trial with no warning from the rudder."

From the conclusion:

"The GS39’s high ballast ratio and tall rig equals power. I know we were really putting her through her paces, but I’d like a bit more authority over that power personally, rather than the skinny foils Maletto designs for America’s Cup boats."

"It’s a trade-off those looking for a performance edge must get used to – like a tuned-up family sports saloon, the 39 has plenty of grunt, but if you turn traction control off, a spin out is more likely. So you need to helm on numbers, not feel – and there wasn’t any of either – to drive the test boat with her rig set-up in the conditions we had. It must be remembered, though, that there were only three of us aboard to sail this brand new boat for the first time in 25 knots."

"But she failed to endear herself to me and seemed a bit stuck between fulfilling a racing and a cruising brief."

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an awesome machine, and a very desirable one, but this Hodges is clearly pointing character traits which to performamce cruisers, may also be seen as defects.

It's interesting that as readers, we got very different impressions. Hey, maybe we need an Englishman to settle! But to say the least, it validates that Toby Hodges and YW reviews are serious, objective, transparent, and if there are some real concerns to point out about a tested yacht, they will not compromise and say it like it is.

Regards,
Hans
I got the same impression from the video as Hans did. I think the english don't enjoy bashing anyone/anything, and this is propably as critical as Toby will get before turning away advertising $$.
The reviews I read were similar in respect to the helming issue.
Also, at that price level I would personally opt for a XC 38 or HR 372. Another issue I have with the boat is the 2.4m (2.0m for shoal) draft, great for performance and stability, sucks for cruising, at least for my uses.
However, this should not be a problem in the Med, which Toby thinks would be the appropriate, less challenging cruising grounds for this squirrely sled.
I definetly got a negative slant from the vid.....
Bernd
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post #2687 of 6763 Old 07-10-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Not really. I know everything about French leasing, I even had one signed at the Paris boat show but you probably don't know that the rules are going to change this year (it is already on EC law).

If you are a French it is like that, you will only pay 50% of VAT on the leasing and that means that you can pay the boat in 6 years have the VAT paid and have a boat for a slightly inferior price of what you would get it if you buy the boat immediately to a dealer and paid the VAT at that time.

Unfortunately that is going to change at the end of this year for the ones that are not French (or Italian in the case of the similar Italian leasing) and the fiscal regime that will be applied will not be the one from the leasing company but the one from the client's country, I mean the one that is paying leasing (the future owner of the boat). That means that I will only pay 50% VAT on 12 rents but I will have to pay 100% VAT on 30 rents.


Paulo
Dear Paulo
Congratulations for the quite interesting thread. I have learned a lot in the last months reading very interesting discussions.
I am planning to buy a new boat before the end of this year taking the advantage of the 50% vat reduction on the French leasing.
I know that rules will be changing by the end of the year but I was informed by the French leasing company that they have found a way of offering the 50% vat reduction on the rents after January 2013 for non-French clients.
Are you aware of this? They told me that we have to go to France to receive the boat in the presence of a " huissier de Justice”. Then the boat can be transported to any European country and can have any flag.
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post #2688 of 6763 Old 07-20-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Well, I guess Paulo is enjoying outfitting and sailing his new sled. Updates and pics please!
In the meantime Bavaria is planning the debut of their new Vision 42, and is revamping the Cruiser line (again). Bavaria seems to be very agressive about developing new models (including the already mentioned Bone), so obviously they assume that buyers are standing by. Is the european boatmarket more solid than the US??
Bavaria Yachtbau: Second VISION model ready this autumn
Farr Yacht Design
The Gunfleet 43 was already posted here (sorry Paulo ), but they are also working on a 58 and 68.
Range | Gunfleet World Class Cruising Yachts
Details
I really like the 43, and I think this is about the best interior design I have seen on a 43 footer.
Bernd
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post #2689 of 6763 Old 07-22-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I saw Bavaria web site. There are some interesting videos to see about the new Vision 46 with BAVARIA producer manager, and the new features on this boat, in my opinion are very well planed.

I think that other brands should look to this and try do the same. With " less money" you find there a motivation to buy this boat.

When i say " less money " i mean this brand is in general cheaper.

Nordics brands ( HR, Najad, Nautor Swan, X-Yachts and etc...) just announce new models with their scandinavian high-quality building, but we don't see the implement of new features that can help solo sailors.

Bavaria improved their design. But how does these boats behave in blue water passage making?

Another brand announcement is Hallberg-Rassy with is new 55, that will replace the 54. Cockpit is similar to the 412

Hallberg-Rassy - Yachts - Center Cockpit Boats
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post #2690 of 6763 Old 07-27-2012 Thread Starter
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Comet 41 s

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Well, I guess Paulo is enjoying outfitting and sailing his new sled. Updates and pics please!
...
Bernd
Well,I have been to occupied to post (Cres on the background)



But while I am at anchor waiting for the night wind (they give winds up to 60K on the North Adriatic) let me give you Guys some more impressions about the Comet 41 now that I have sailed it for some days.






First let me point out that given to my cruising style I am not one of those that sail with a light boat. Well, not either one of those that sail with a lot of stuff. Let me clarify this because I think it is important:

I have now a lot of time and I am cruising extensively in an area where a day at a marina costs over 100 euros for a 41ft boat so I want to stay out of Marinas. In fact since I started sailing ( 12 days ago ) I did not visit any and I still have a bit little less than half water tank (400L full), also because I have a salt water tap.

Of course this implies to have a lot of provisions aboard (not always is easy to find a place with a supermarket near and carrying large loads, even with a small shopping trolley is not a piece of cake. To give you an idea I left San Giorgio with 90L of bottled water, 10L of Beer and 10L of wine. You can imagine the rest of the groceries, tins, preserves and fruits. So, normal stuff for a cruiser that wants to stay out of Marinas (I am at Mali Losinj today, the first Marina in 17 days).

Regarding mods on the boat, besides a new 20 Kg Spade (that is being very useful right now) I only improved the electrical system and Batteries.

Expensive stuff but I can say right now that it was very well spent money. Basically I changed the existent calcium Batteries for Mastervolt AGM increasing the capacity of the in house bank from 300 to 375 Ah, changed the alternator (60 A) for one with 120A. Also mounted a Mastervolt controller and a Mastervolt battery mate. I am very satisfied with the set-up. Basically I go out of port or shelter on engine, let it run 20m and when arriving where I want to stay take the sails a bit earlier and motor another 20m and that is enough for the day. I have to say that I have leds all over the boat and that even so I use a lot portable solar lamps (IKEA). Most of the consumption is due to the refrigerator.







So about sailing: First of all let me tell you that I am not a great sailor, I mean I learned to sail alone (still learning) and when I pick a new boat, that is a powerful boat I want to learn the boat slowly and not go full blast right away. I sail alone with my wife that is more a cook than a sailor and that scares easily…and the last thing I want is to scare her especially now that she is making an effort to learn something about sailing.

First days the wind was weak and I could find out that the boat (as I expected) satisfied my needs. I am sailing with a main and a small 100% genoa (I have on the boat a 135%), good Mylar sails, and even so I can sail with 4/5K wind and with 7/8K the boat sails around and over 7K, loaded and all. That was just one of the main things I wanted from a sailboat and it is right on the spot.

Regarding max speed, it is easy to go over 8K and near 9. I have not reached yet 9k. I guess the weight has more importance when going over hull speed and also as I said, I don’t want to scare my wife. But speed is not only main speed and on the only two occasions I had “competition” while sailing the boat behaved properly. On the first, close on the wind I left fast behind a Bavaria 46 (44?) that in some hours was just a tiny speck on the horizon and on the second one I could hold ground to a light trimaran Corsair 27. True, he finished ahead but barely 200m, on a 15Nm leg it is not much. The wind was about 10K true. I could go closer to the wind and If it was always like that I would have come clearly ahead, but after turning a cape it was full blast all the way (90ºwind) and he could go a bit faster (I was doing 8.5K).

After that I had a nice day with downwind sailing with not too much wind. The boat glide effortlessly between 6.5 and 8.7 leaving all the other sailboats behind including an Hanse 400 that was motorsailing.

All nice in what regards sailing? Well no. The first time I had to reef I found out that the previous owner had the reefing points all wrong and the best I could have was a baggy main. Even so the boat was going well (7.5K) but I am sure it can be a lot better. I have remade all the reefing and put a third one. I have tried the first and the second one and the shape of the sail is just nice so next time I need them things will go a lot better.

The traveler is just beautiful to handle but the winches to control the mainsail (German sheeting) are just too ahead to be comfortable to handle them from the steering wheel, at least without going over it (it is a big one) to the other side,. As a plus one of the winches is an electrical one and makes a fast regulation a breeze, but again the commands are away from the wheel. I have a remote control for them but I had not time to play with it.

When hard pressed and near the limit the boat gives plenty of warning. It is funny because the steering seems lost but then if you pull hard the wheel you regain full control again. It is so easy that I did not yet broach the boat. But with all that sail with gusty wind you have to reef or have someone at the main to let go and catch again. Well, North Crostia is the place for gusting wind /I never saw anything like that, the normal situation is an average wind with gusts twice that wind) The traveler is just not enough. I guess I have to learn how to steer the boat on the inside side of the wheel to be able to do all by myself.

Comparing with the Salona 41 that I sailed last year I would say this one is a bit stiffer ( the guys from Salona can put more ballast on the boat if you want) but the sensations are very similar.

Unfortunately the comparisons with the Salona go sour in what regards the engine. The Salona has a Yanmar 54hp that had plenty grunt and power. The boat could make 8K, the fast cruising speed was 7K and at 2000RPM the boat was making over 6K. On this one, a Lombardini with 40hp, at 2000Rpm the boat is making 4.5K, to get to 5.5K you have to go to 2400RPM and at max power the boat barely goes over 6K. That’s really the weak point on this boat. I don’t know if that has to do something with the propeller (a folding max prop) but certainly has to do with the power. Those extra 14hp make a huge difference.

Next year I will try to have the money to mount a Burton’s autoprop to see if I can at least have some more speed at 2000rpm, but I am sure that will be only an improvement not a cure.

Continuing that comparison with the Salona, I would say that all around this is a better quality boat (it is also more expensive) but I would say that in many aspects that will from Salona to learn with their clients and improve continually the boats gives fruits that lack on this boat. This boat has a very nice interior with quality all around but then it has also many little stupid details that should have been modified with the boat production. Some examples:
You cannot jump the outside “door” when it is closed. If you had bad weather and had it closed you would have to take half of it away to pass to the interior. The lock is so odd that my wife finds it difficult to open it from the interior. The boat doesn’t have any handlebars on the outside and on the interior it lacks a decent sea berth. It has the space for it but is just badly designed. The saloon table is a nice fixed one, but it prevents (even to my wife that is small) a decent access to the interior places. It would not be expensive to design a system to permit sliding the table one way or another to gain an easy access to the interior places.

These are just some examples I could give a lot more. But of course this is a semi custom boat so if you buy it new you can order a lot of changes if you really know what you want.

On the positive side the interior is just nice and cosy and the boat offers a better storage space, a very good weight distribution and also a bigger black water deposit.



Well, just the first impressions. I will post more about it when I know the boat better. Overall my wife and me are very satisfied with what we’ve got.

Best regards to all,

Paulo
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