Interesting Sailboats - Page 279 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #2781  
Old 10-08-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
new boat: Sense 46

You can like it or not but the Sense concept changed the way the interior/exterior of a sailing boat was designed. The Sense series offers a living space that no other boat of the same size matches. True, it has fewer cabins, but for living at the marina or anchorage the boat offers a true loft and a great exterior space, all well designed in a true contemporary styling.

The 46 offers a lot, in what regards living quality. To entertain and receive friends it is just great. It sails well for what it offers and this one has even a decent B/D ratio (29%) for this type of boat and type of keel . That and the huge beam should give it a big stability and the ability to sail with little heel.

Some photos and some videos:




















Last edited by PCP; 10-08-2012 at 06:49 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2782  
Old 10-08-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Crazy multihull sailing

Allright, they are Australians...but even for Australians the sailing is...over the limit. Even cruising boats sail at the edge

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2783  
Old 10-08-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Boat of the Year, Voile magazine

I have already talked here about a different boat of the year, the one from the Voile magazine that is chosen by readers, journalists and guests, a lot of people, not by mail, but voted after having sailed the nominated boats on the sea at the same time.

This year they got 30K wind gusting 40K and the winner was a surprise (well, not for me), the JPK 38 that had beaten all the other boats, at least in the opinion of the ones that had sailed them.

The second place, that one was a surprise for me, the Benetau Sense 46. I guess that on the post about the boat I was right in guessing a big stability for that boat. It seems it passed with flying colors the 40K wind.

Next it comes the J70 and that is no surprise because these guys (I mean the readers of that magazine) had already shown that they like J boats. Last year the winner was the J111.



After the podium, it comes the new RM 12.60 and then the Pogo 50.






Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2784  
Old 10-09-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 141
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
daviid is on a distinguished road
Re: Dufour 36 performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Some numbers:

Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg

First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg

Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg

Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg

Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg

J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg

Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg

Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg

well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo

You forgot a Hanse 350 from your list

Hanse 350 - sail area 74.6 with 140% genoa; weight 5,763 kg; SA/D - 23.6!!

All the best

David
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2785  
Old 10-09-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 141
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
daviid is on a distinguished road
Re: Dufour 36 performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I had posted already about the new Dufour 36 performance, I saw the boat on the Dusseldorf boat show and was impressed with the interior that is amazingly detailed for a performance boat and will make this boat a very nice cruising boat.

Posterior testing showed that this boat was not only relatively fast but very easy and agreeable to sail. A very interesting boat for someone that wants a faster boat than an average 36ft but want a true cruising boat with all details and amenities.

Take a look:





Dufour 36: Kraftpaket im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Well I have to say that even if that somebody seems to love this boat I would like very much to see a comparative boat test with several boats in the water. I have to say that I have more than some doubts about the compared sail performance of the Dufour. Yes the hull is very nicely designed but...the boat is heavy and has a comparatively small B/D ratio and that does not allow it to carry much more sail than the competition so I have many doubts that the boat would be comparatively fast in light wind or in a breeze with some heavy sea, where the bigger ballast B/D ratio would be more important.

Yes I believe the performances from 10 to 14K would be very interesting but out of that...I think the boat would be comparatively slow. But after all is not between 10 and 13K of wind that most cruisers like to sail?

Some numbers:

Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg

First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg

Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg

Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg

Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg

J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg

Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg

Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg

well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo

Thanks for sharing. An awesome looking boat with some great features inside as well. Perfect for performance cruising but there will be other boats that will be faster.

Some stats

D/L - 168 compares wit 153 for First 35 so nothing in it
SA/D - 19.2 compares with 23.7 for the First 35. The weight issue you have highlighted is definitely counting against it. Both boats have shrouds outboard so not much scope to increase the size of the headsail
B/D - 29.7 compares with 30.4 for the First 35 so not much in it. Both have chines and a torpedo so weight will be low down. Both boats should be stiff in a blow. There are obviously other competitors with higher B/D's
Displacement - excluding keel - 4,500kg versus 3,830. Probably due to cored topsides on the First 35 versus non core on the Dufour but definitely a big difference

Just my opinion

David
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2786  
Old 10-09-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Dufour 36 performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by ;931125
Hi PauloHanse 350 - sail area 74.6 with 140% genoa; weight 5,763 kg; SA/D - 23.6!!
daviid
All the best


You forgot a Hanse 350 from your list

David
Hi David,
Because the Hanse is not advertised as a performance cruiser, or cruiser racer as some like to call them. However you are right it seems that even a good mainstream cruiser like the Hanse can be faster than the Dufour, at least in some conditions. Well, the Dufour looks like a fast performance boat and the Hanse does not

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

Thanks for sharing. An awesome looking boat with some great features inside as well. Perfect for performance cruising but there will be other boats that will be faster.

Some stats

D/L - 168 compares wit 153 for First 35 so nothing in it
SA/D - 19.2 compares with 23.7 for the First 35. The weight issue you have highlighted is definitely counting against it. Both boats have shrouds outboard so not much scope to increase the size of the headsail
B/D - 29.7 compares with 30.4 for the First 35 so not much in it. Both have chines and a torpedo so weight will be low down. Both boats should be stiff in a blow. There are obviously other competitors with higher B/D's
Displacement - excluding keel - 4,500kg versus 3,830. Probably due to cored topsides on the First 35 versus non core on the Dufour but definitely a big difference

Just my opinion

David
You are right about the B/D ratio. I never noticed that the First 35 had also a low B/D ratio for a performance boat. Funny, the First 40 that is also a Farr design and looks like a bigger 35 has 38%, the same kind of keel and a bigger draft (2.45 to 2.2m). That is strange because regarding the same type of boats, smaller boats have normally a bigger B/D ratio.

The other boats I have listed have a bigger B/D ratio. In fact 29/30% is the norm with a modern keel for a mainstream cruiser. Performance cruisers will have normally at least 33%.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-09-2012 at 08:15 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2787  
Old 10-09-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 141
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
daviid is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo

Looks like a performance cruiser to me.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

All the best

David
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-417.jpg  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2788  
Old 10-09-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

Looks like a performance cruiser to me.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

All the best

David
I didn't say that the Hanse is not a beautiful boat. I have said that the Dufour 36 looked like a cruiser-racer and the Hanse didn't. I was referring to things like the traveler on the back of the boat, near the wheel, removable cockpit lockers and a cockpit and winch set up adapted to racing.

Nice boat and nice place too

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-09-2012 at 10:31 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2789  
Old 10-09-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 184
Thanks: 3
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 8
HMoll is on a distinguished road
Re: Dufour 36 performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I had posted already about the new Dufour 36 performance, I saw the boat on the Dusseldorf boat show and was impressed with the interior that is amazingly detailed for a performance boat and will make this boat a very nice cruising boat.

Posterior testing showed that this boat was not only relatively fast but very easy and agreeable to sail. A very interesting boat for someone that wants a faster boat than an average 36ft but want a true cruising boat with all details and amenities.

Take a look:





Dufour 36: Kraftpaket im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Well I have to say that even if that somebody seems to love this boat I would like very much to see a comparative boat test with several boats in the water. I have to say that I have more than some doubts about the compared sail performance of the Dufour. Yes the hull is very nicely designed but...the boat is heavy and has a comparatively small B/D ratio and that does not allow it to carry much more sail than the competition so I have many doubts that the boat would be comparatively fast in light wind or in a breeze with some heavy sea, where the bigger ballast B/D ratio would be more important.

Yes I believe the performances from 10 to 14K would be very interesting but out of that...I think the boat would be comparatively slow. But after all is not between 10 and 13K of wind that most cruisers like to sail?

Some numbers:

Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg

First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg

Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg

Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg

Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg

J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg

Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg

Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg

well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.

Regards

Paulo

My perspective is a bit diferrent. I used to sail a 4,600kg 35' one-design racer cruiser with wife and two kids. A bit of a workload for singlehand cruising, especially upwind,where we usulaay get a 4'-5' chop. When I added 320kg of water ballast and another 430kg of batteries on top of the keel, I got a lot better behavior upwind, as it slices waves better. Also, on puffs, a more gentle transition to heel where it allows me time to trim as necessary. Let's say the boat is more civilized, and maybe MORE able to stay at hull speed. The only point of sail I have lost a bit of performance is downwind in surf. The other day, we sailed a hard 20-mile upwind leg, 17kts TWS and 25kts puffs, alongside a 2006 Dufour 40. With my previous light displacement, that would not be possible. I don't race, and to get a full crew on board, I'd have to take out the batteries.

Having said that, it's good if you can add payload to balance a boat, but I'm assuming that diferrent hull shapes will assimilate differently to payload, and where it is placed.

Just pointing out that numbers don't tell all, and the D36 did get a very good review from YW, especially regarding its manners and behavior.

Finally, why do all these tests and videos of boats show flat water only?

Paulo, glad you're back online!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2790  
Old 10-09-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 141
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
daviid is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Continuing our discussion on performance cruisers and their stability, Rob Humphreys who designs the Élan range amongst others clearly took a decision when he introduced the Élan 350 which would,definitely be on my short list of performance cruisers.

The Élan 350 has a B/D ratio of 25.9% but it has a deep torpedo keel and a chine. The Élan 340 which was European Yacht of the Year in 2007 and which the Élan 350 replaces has a B/D of 29.8% also with a torpedo but no chine. At first, I had serious reservations about the reserve stability of the Élan 350 but on reflection Humphreys has chosen to make his performance range lighter including the amount of keel the boats are dragging around. I have no doubt that the increased beam, the torpedo keel and the chine were factors in introducing this paradigm shift in design of the performance range. As you know the Élan 350 also won European Yacht of the Year in 2011.

Apart from the Elan 350, the other boats in my short list by the way would be the Salona 35/38, the First 35, the Dufour 36P, the still to be introduced Jeanneau 3600 and the Dehler 35CR. I have deliberately not included the likes of Pogo 10.50, X yachts, Solaris 37, Opium 39, Grand Soleil because this is not a dream list

Last edited by daviid; 10-10-2012 at 06:45 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 9 (0 members and 9 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 06:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 06:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 01:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 12:32 PM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 07:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:12 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.