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post #2781 of 6763 Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Dufour 36 performance

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I had posted already about the new Dufour 36 performance, I saw the boat on the Dusseldorf boat show and was impressed with the interior that is amazingly detailed for a performance boat and will make this boat a very nice cruising boat.

Posterior testing showed that this boat was not only relatively fast but very easy and agreeable to sail. A very interesting boat for someone that wants a faster boat than an average 36ft but want a true cruising boat with all details and amenities.

Take a look:





Dufour 36: Kraftpaket im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Well I have to say that even if that somebody seems to love this boat I would like very much to see a comparative boat test with several boats in the water. I have to say that I have more than some doubts about the compared sail performance of the Dufour. Yes the hull is very nicely designed but...the boat is heavy and has a comparatively small B/D ratio and that does not allow it to carry much more sail than the competition so I have many doubts that the boat would be comparatively fast in light wind or in a breeze with some heavy sea, where the bigger ballast B/D ratio would be more important.

Yes I believe the performances from 10 to 14K would be very interesting but out of that...I think the boat would be comparatively slow. But after all is not between 10 and 13K of wind that most cruisers like to sail?

Some numbers:

Dufour 36p sail area 72,1m2, weight 6400kg

First 35 sail area 72,5m2, weight 5500kg

Salona 35 sail area 69,5m2, weight 5300kg

Elan 350 sail area 68,6m2, weight 5350kg

Dehler 35 sail area 72,0m2, weight 5520kg

J 109 sail area 59,8m2, weight 4944kg

Comet 35s sail area 80m2, weight 5500kg

Archambault 35 sail area 67,5m2, weight 4450kg

well, I could go on, but I guess you get my drift I don't believe in miracles.

Regards

Paulo

My perspective is a bit diferrent. I used to sail a 4,600kg 35' one-design racer cruiser with wife and two kids. A bit of a workload for singlehand cruising, especially upwind,where we usulaay get a 4'-5' chop. When I added 320kg of water ballast and another 430kg of batteries on top of the keel, I got a lot better behavior upwind, as it slices waves better. Also, on puffs, a more gentle transition to heel where it allows me time to trim as necessary. Let's say the boat is more civilized, and maybe MORE able to stay at hull speed. The only point of sail I have lost a bit of performance is downwind in surf. The other day, we sailed a hard 20-mile upwind leg, 17kts TWS and 25kts puffs, alongside a 2006 Dufour 40. With my previous light displacement, that would not be possible. I don't race, and to get a full crew on board, I'd have to take out the batteries.

Having said that, it's good if you can add payload to balance a boat, but I'm assuming that diferrent hull shapes will assimilate differently to payload, and where it is placed.

Just pointing out that numbers don't tell all, and the D36 did get a very good review from YW, especially regarding its manners and behavior.

Finally, why do all these tests and videos of boats show flat water only?

Paulo, glad you're back online!
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post #2782 of 6763 Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Continuing our discussion on performance cruisers and their stability, Rob Humphreys who designs the Élan range amongst others clearly took a decision when he introduced the Élan 350 which would,definitely be on my short list of performance cruisers.

The Élan 350 has a B/D ratio of 25.9% but it has a deep torpedo keel and a chine. The Élan 340 which was European Yacht of the Year in 2007 and which the Élan 350 replaces has a B/D of 29.8% also with a torpedo but no chine. At first, I had serious reservations about the reserve stability of the Élan 350 but on reflection Humphreys has chosen to make his performance range lighter including the amount of keel the boats are dragging around. I have no doubt that the increased beam, the torpedo keel and the chine were factors in introducing this paradigm shift in design of the performance range. As you know the Élan 350 also won European Yacht of the Year in 2011.

Apart from the Elan 350, the other boats in my short list by the way would be the Salona 35/38, the First 35, the Dufour 36P, the still to be introduced Jeanneau 3600 and the Dehler 35CR. I have deliberately not included the likes of Pogo 10.50, X yachts, Solaris 37, Opium 39, Grand Soleil because this is not a dream list

Last edited by daviid; 10-10-2012 at 05:45 AM.
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Dufour 36p

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
My perspective is a bit diferrent. I used to sail a 4,600kg 35' one-design racer cruiser with wife and two kids. A bit of a workload for singlehand cruising, especially upwind,where we usulaay get a 4'-5' chop. When I added 320kg of water ballast and another 430kg of batteries on top of the keel, I got a lot better behavior upwind, as it slices waves better. Also, on puffs, a more gentle transition to heel where it allows me time to trim as necessary. Let's say the boat is more civilized, and maybe MORE able to stay at hull speed. The only point of sail I have lost a bit of performance is downwind in surf. The other day, we sailed a hard 20-mile upwind leg, 17kts TWS and 25kts puffs, alongside a 2006 Dufour 40. With my previous light displacement, that would not be possible. I don't race, and to get a full crew on board, I'd have to take out the batteries.

Having said that, it's good if you can add payload to balance a boat, but I'm assuming that diferrent hull shapes will assimilate differently to payload, and where it is placed.

Just pointing out that numbers don't tell all, and the D36 did get a very good review from YW, especially regarding its manners and behavior.

Finally, why do all these tests and videos of boats show flat water only?

Paulo, glad you're back online!
Hi. thanks

Glad you have liked the Dufour 40, the previous model. It was my second choice (as a 5 year old used boat) if I could not get a Comet 41s. It was not by accident that I bought a medium weight relatively narrow boat with a good B/D ratio. It had to do with what you say.

I agree with you and the two Dufour 40, the previous model (the one you sailed and the new model) are a good example of what you say. The new one will be faster under most conditions but on the conditions you have described I think the older one would not only be faster but also more comfortable.

The new one is slightly heavier and has less 350kg of ballast for the same draft. I don't think that the new more efficient keel can give the same effect than the other one, takong into account the weight difference in ballast. The new boat weights 7950Kg and the old one weighted 7800kg on the basic version and 7300 on the performance version (the one that I was looking for).

This gives a B/D for the old Dufour 40p of 37% and the new one has only 29%. Both boat have about the same beam but the new one has less rocker and a flatter hull.



Regarding your comments, there is a sailing situation where the lighter boat has a big advantage and that is in very light winds. Regarding going upwind, weight can only be a significant advantage (not considering comfort that is a relative subject) if that weight is on the ballast, given more righting moment to the boat and allowing it to carry more sail. But has we have seen the weight on the Dufour 36 is not in the ballast but in the hull. If you take a look ar the B/D ratio of the other mentioned boats (with the exception of the First) you are going to see that they are not only lighter but also that they carry proportionally much more ballast.

Look for instance to the J109: It weights less 1500kg than the Dufour and the difference in ballast is only 130kg. Or look at the new J111 that has a difference in weight of 2300kg for a difference in ballast of 330kg. Compared with really performance boats the Dufour looks like one, bur it just looks, the performances are not there.

As I have said, the boat will perform well with medium winds and that's all. With very light or stronger winds the boat will not be a match for true performance cruisers.

I know that we are going to see good results in racing, but those results will be obtained not by standard boats but by racing boats made by Dufour, boats that look like the Dufour that is advertised but that will have a lot less weight....and that will cost two times more.

Brands like Dehler or Salona advertise their boats (and prices) in the several configurations they can have, regarding weight, build materials and performance. Brands like Dufour or First only advertise their performance boats in standard configuration letting you think that the boats that win races are just the same as the one you have bought If you are a true high level racer they will have a boat for you (and probably at a correct price regarding the performance) but you go by the back door to talk with the guys that deal with that and is no use to look for that boat in any catalog: You will not find it.

Regards

Paulo
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post #2784 of 6763 Old 10-09-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Continuing our discussion on performance cruisers and their stability, Rob Humphreys who designs the Élan range amongst others clearly took a decision when he introduced the Élan 350 which would,definitely be on my short list of performance cruisers.

The Élan 350 has a B/D ratio of 25.9% but it has a deep torpedo keel and a chine. The Élan 340 which was European Yacht of the Year in 2007 and which the Élan 350 replaces has a B/D of 29.8% also with a torpedo but no chine. At first, I had serious reservations about the reserve stability of the Élan 350 but on reflection Humphreys has chosen to make his performance range lighter including the amount of keel the boats are dragging around. I have NO doubt that the increased beam, the torpedo keel and the chine were factors in introducing this paradigm shift in design of the performance range. As you know the Élan 350 also one European Yacht of the Year in 2011.

The other boats in my short list by the way would be the Salona 35/38, the First 35, the Dufour 36P, the still to be introduced Jeanneau 3600 and the Dehler 35CR. I have deliberately not included the likes of Pogo 10.50, X yachts, Solaris 37, Opium 39 because this is not a dream list
You have to decide what kind of performances and comfort you want to favor in a boat. I like very much the Elan 350 but in what regards sailing the choices are different from the Dehler or the Salona that have a similar design conception even if the Dehler offer a bigger B/D ratio. Of course with Salona you can always talk with them to put more weight on the keel and they will design one for you.

I guess that for a definitive choice a week sailing on each boat would be the ideal and will not bring the price of the boat much higher. You can say that you are testing the boat to eventually buy it and if the charter is the builder or the dealer to whom you are eventually going to buy the boat they will make you very special prices especially if you do it out of season. It is also good fun and good for this thread since you would post your coments

I would leave the Dufour out of that choice but that is just me. That weight is just too much for a 36ft. Jesus my 2002 Bavaria 36 weighted less than that

If you can afford a Salona 38, even a low spec boats will be faster and a better cruising boat that any other of those boats. The difference in interior space is really big as the seaworthiness but I am suspect in what regards that boat:

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-09-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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sailing/racing with a lot of wind

Two great movies:



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Ancient Ships

I was looking at Google Earth, starting thinking about next years sailing season. I was thinking into passing the Corinth channel, maybe on the way back, to leave the boat in Preveza when I got curious about the channel. I new the Corinth wealth in old times was connected with trading and the strategic point on a narrow stretch of land between the Ionic and Aegean sea and I had the idea that a Chanel existed since ancient times.

I was wrong they tried but found a cheaper solution, a quite incredible one that worked for 1500 years. Take a look: fantastic movies



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Sailing is awesome

Great sailing video:

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Performance Island Packet

Big surprise: Island packet is going to launch a series of performance cruisers. They will be called Blue Jacket line and will be designed by Tim Jackett (ex-President and Chief Designer at Tartan and C&C) in collaboration with Bob Johnson (CEO and Chief Designer at Island Packet).

The first one is already on its way to production and even if in what regards cabin design I find the boat too classic, not to say old fashioned, in what regards hull design and technical characteristics I love the boat.

Well, the keel could be more modern and efficient (it is similar to the one on my boat) but in what regards all the rest it looks perfect to me. In fact it is very close to the Comet 41s in what regards weight, ballast and hull design. It fits on the Italian way of looking to performance cruisers.

A relatively narrow boat with a good B/D a deep draft (2.30) and a big stability that is the opposite in design conception of the also new Tartan(and the CC121). I like a lot more this one.

Well, there are some things I don’t like: The traveler over the cabin and only one winch on each side of the cockpit that will have to be used for the mainsail and the genoa, but I believe that could be changed if clients ask otherwise.

Technical Characteristics
LOA: 39’ 10” (12.14 m)
LWL: 35’ 0” (10.67 m)
BEAM: 12’ 4” (3.76 m)
DRAFT: 7’ 5” (2.29 m) deep
5’ 2” (1.56 m) shoal
DISP: 16, 500 lbs (7,484 kg)
BALLAST: 6, 100 lbs (2,767 kg) deep
SAIL AREA: 883 sq ft (82.03 sq m) (100% FT)
MAST HEIGHT: 62’ 6” (19.05 m)
POWER: 40 HP (30 kW)
FUEL: 40 US gal (151 l)
WATER: 110 US gal (417 l)
WASTE: 25 US gal (80 l)
SA/D: 21.8
D/L: 172
DESIGNER: Tim Jackett w/Bob Johnson, N.A.



















They say about the boat:

Sailplan and rig:
The large sailplan is a further refinement of the Solent style rig featuring standard double head sails with a working jib and a lightweight 150% reacher that mounts on the integral bow prod, both furled with Harken® systems. The working jib is fitted with a carbon fiber Hoyt Boom® that is self-tending and improves performance with its close sheeting and self-vanging feature while the large reacher boosts performance in light air or when off the wind. The fully battened mainsail is equipped with a standard electric halyard winch and a low friction Battcar system and drops easily into a carbon fiber pocket boom with an integral cover and lazy jack system.

This easily managed rig has ample horsepower and versatility for optimizing performance in a wide range of conditions. All sheets lead to the cockpit near the helm and primary winches for short-handed convenience.
On deck:
On deck, anchor handling has been simplified and made especially convenient with a cleverly designed roller recessed in the bow prod providing secure stowage of the anchor and directing the rode to the anchor locker with a (optional) below deck electric windlass that keeps the deck and profile uncluttered. A deck hatch gives access to this area. Wide side decks with full length raised bulwarks, double lifelines, bow and stern rails and cabin top handrails provide security on deck.

The large cockpit has deep coamings, long seats and twin helm stations with great visibility and ready access to all sail control lines. Seat hatches provide access to storage areas and a (optional) central drop-leaf table makes for a great social area. Hinged transom doors open to the integral stern platform with a retractable swim ladder under a central hatch.

Materials used:
The Blue Jacket’s hull and deck are made with a state of the art vacuum infusion process utilizing 100% vinylester resin, quadraxial knitted E-glass reinforcements and a structural foam core. The end result is superior strength and stiffness with significantly reduced weight compared to conventional laminates. …

The use of premium structural foam coring produces better interlaminar bond properties with freedom from potential core deterioration compared to other choices and allows for an industry-best extended hull and deck warranty.


http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/


..
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Last edited by PCP; 10-10-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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Comet 41s




I had said on the last post that it seems to me that some characteristics of the new line of the Island Packet are similar to the ones of the Comet 41s, a boat that has already some years (6). Does that mean that the design of the new performance Island Packet is already dated?

Rarely a 6 years old design remains up to date in what regards sailing characteristics with new models, so when I found out a recent test sail of the Comet 41s (9/2012) I was very curious about what they would say about the boat and if they would feel that the design and sailing characteristics were already dated. I mean, on all the sail tests they said very well about the boat but that was 5 or 6 years ago.

I was very curious because one of the reasons I chose this boat was precisely because it seemed to me that its design was very modern for the time it was designed and that it was still actual.

On other hand, many on this thread had asked me about my impressions on the boat. I had try to comply but I am afraid to be partial (and that is natural) so nothing better than to read what the guys of Yachts and Yachting say about the Comet 41s they have tested last month.

I would say that they confirm many of the things I have said about the boat and in some they are even more optimistic than myself.

The conclusion:

Comet 41S Review: Verdict

Overall it’s hard not to be impressed by the Comet 41S. You step aboard wondering ‘Why would you when there are many 40-41-footers around?’ and step off fully engaged by its subtle, very persuasive charm and good performance.
It’s a bit of a statement boat, something different for the discerning owner who does not simply want to follow the crowd. There is so much neat detailing and, for the price, quality workmanship that, for me, it stands out as virtually unique among boats I have tested over the last few years. It comes from a yard which appears to sit comfortably astride the traditional notions of craftsmanship, but still embracing what the contemporary racing sailor wants in terms of modern mid-tech build for performance and strength, well developed and refined layout and a real cruising capacity.


You can read the rest here:

Yachts and Yachting Magazine





....

Last edited by PCP; 10-11-2012 at 06:14 AM.
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post #2790 of 6763 Old 10-11-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I agree that a 6 year design is new. I'm careful to have a strong opinion about the new superwide sterns a-la-Vendee or Volvo. Example, Elan 350. For cruising, I simply cannot viualize them on hard seas, given light displacement too. Must wear seatbelts at the helm, not to fall about 6' vertical to the leeward deck! Good on a Bene Oceanis or Sense, though. Makes a kickass entertainment cockpit at anchor!. Now look at Comet, Salona, and J-Boats for fast & seaworthy shapes. The comet looks very fast and sexy, especially without the Formula 1 rear spoiler.

One idea for this thread: Paulo, you should post a new thread: Hiring Naval Architect in "Interesting Sailboats". The conversation could get very interesting beyond RM, B/D & SA/D. Hull shapes, payload…

Second idea: The year is coming to an end. THIS THREAD DESERVES A "BOTY AWARDS" SESSION, with categories and all.

Cheers,

Hans
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