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post #2801 of 6763 Old 10-13-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paolo,

As you know I have both Pogo and Dragonfly on my shortlist, both very fast boats. I know the DF 32 will be faster than the Pogo 30, I suspect the DF might also be faster than a Pogo 12.50, although not by much. I saw a youtube clip of the mighty fast flagship Pogo 50, from EYOTY testing I think:



Well... maybe I should stick to three hulls

//Mr W
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post #2802 of 6763 Old 10-13-2012 Thread Starter
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Trimaran versus fast monohull

Hi, nice video, thanks for posting it!

There are no surprises there, at least for me. But they only show few images of both boats upwind and even so you could see that the Pogo points better and it is not properly a boat that points very well.

Here you can see some images of a J122 against a F31, that is probably faster than the Dragonfly 32, where that is evident.



This year I had the opportunity of sailing near a trimaran, I think it was a Corsair 31, both boats close upwind and that was very evident. We arrived at almost time at the same destination. The sea had some short steep waves that seem to slow it down more than they slow my boat and he only went clearly away when he arrive near shore and he got flat water. On worst sea conditions with more wind and waves I am sure I would not only be faster but would have a much more comfortable and drier sailing. After a given limit of sail and sea I can continue safely while he was to look for shelter.

I know we are talking about two different sized boats but a 30ft trimaran costs about the same as a 40ft sailboat and besides that would be the case even with a bigger trimaran:

If we look at the results of races that are made with Trimarans and Monohulls, even if that are downwind sails (transats) we can see that when the weather is ruff an Open 60 can normally beat a 50ft racing trimaran and also that almost all monohulls survive bad weather while the causalities on the trimarans are huge and many abandon with damaged boats or capsizes.

Of course, when they get good weather and relatively flat water the trimarans are much faster.

So, regarding your choice it all has to do with the use you are going to give to the boat. Sure, a trimaran would be more fun but it has its limitations, specially a small one like the 32 or even more the 27 and I am not talking only about the interior space or price.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-13-2012 at 08:10 AM.
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post #2803 of 6763 Old 10-13-2012 Thread Starter
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It 13.98

Another test sail, this one by the Italians of "Fare Vela". They say as well about the boat as the guys from YachtingWorld.

Gosh, this boat is not only fast but also beautiful

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post #2804 of 6763 Old 10-14-2012 Thread Starter
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Solaris 37

And since we talk about beautiful Italian boats, one of my favorites. The only thing I don't like is the price




And talking about this type of boats, I mean the ones that have a balance in the performances that but more emphasis on the upwind performance (like my own boat) an opposed balance regarding boats like the Pogo or Elan 350 (that favors downwind performance), take a look at the performance of the Solaris 48 in what regards close to the wind sailing.

Of course that is apparent wind, but even so, over 8K at 22/23 of the wind on a performance cruiser is very good, even in almost flat water.

take a look:



I was impressed with the performance of my own boat (6.5K with 2m waves at 27 of the wind) but I guess that this one in the same conditions will do a lot better.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-14-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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post #2805 of 6763 Old 10-14-2012 Thread Starter
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Hanse 415

Well, I did not have talked much about the new Hanse 415. Now that Hanse and Farevela had put videos on internet its time to make some comments.

First of all let me tell that regarding the Hanse 415 I am partial. It is a love and hate thing. I love some things, like the possibility they have to make you an epoxy hull for not too much money ( I hope they still offer that possibility), the strength of the boat, the B/D ratio and I really dislike the interior and the lack of a proper traveler.

They want to pass the idea that the Hanse is a performance boat, well it is not. It is a relatively heavy boat (8.900kg) and has not much sail (87m2). They claim (on the videos) that the boat is the fastest in its class ********, many boats are as fast or faster, starting by the jeanneau 409 (7860kg for 78.9m2 of sail) and ending on the new Benetau Oceanis 41 (8.450kg for 83.8 m2 of sail.

Not a big difference between the three boats but the fastest boat in this class is the Jeanneau 409 in its performance version (still not a performance cruiser) with (7450kg and 89.5m2 of sail).

A typical performance cruiser like the Salona 41 has a much bigger SA/D (7450kg for 111.1m2 of sail).

The Hanse has a good D/B ratio a modern keel, a good hull and self tacking head sail (that is also offered by jeanneau and probably by Beneteau). The more substantial difference is the epoxy hull option that I cannot find on the list of options for this model. I hope that they continue to offer it. There are also other differences like beam and B/D ratio.

It is a solid boat, relatively fast as all modern cruisers, solid and well built. It is difficult to chose between the several mass production European cruisers. They are all well designed and the differences are mainly in what regards personal taste and some differences in what regards sailing hardware and also sailing qualities, being the Oceanis and the Hanse the beamier boats (4.2m; 4.17m) and the Jeanneau the narrower with 3.99m.

Regarding B/D the Hanse has 0.326, the Oceanis 0.272 and the Jeanneau as 0.301. The drafts are similar as well as the keels.This will make the Hanse the stiffer boat (beam and B/D ratio) and a very good and fast boat in a breeze but also a seaworthy boat. Of course the Jeanneau is less beamy and that will make it probably a better and more comfortable boat upwind.

As I said a solid boat, not only by build but also on the sea













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Last edited by PCP; 10-14-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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post #2806 of 6763 Old 10-15-2012
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Hanse

Hi Paulo

Hanse's new 5 series - 345 which replaces the 355, 385, 415, 445 etc - are aimed at the charter market. Nothing wrong with that but they are definitely more cruiser than performance cruiser. With Dehler being part of the Hanse group, the Dehler is the performance cruiser in the group.

There is a lot to like about the 5 series if you are a cruiser. They all have cockpit tables, all the lines are lead back to the genoa winches for short handed sailing and for seperating the cockpit into a working/chilling area, twin helms for easy access, bathing platforms, self tacking jibs with large mainsails, no travelers in the cockpit. I know that you don't agree with me on this but I like their interiors which are very functional less is more Scandinavian loft type designs which owners can personalize themselves. Performance wise, Judel and Vrolijk have designed fast modern hulls that are a little heavier than the other AWB manufacturers - Dufour excluded - on account of the keel reinforcements in GRP. The increased weight is offset to an extent by having self tacking jibs that are maximised both in terms of size and roach which is controlled by vertical battens. Previous generation Hanses were known for their hull and rig focus but I think this is changing with the new generation.

As you say, it is difficult to distinguish many of the mainstream cruisers these days with personal taste playing the major part. The one part which counts heavily in favour of Hanse is their owners forum which is absolutely invaluable to any owner. The advice is boat specific as well as general and I am sure that there is no problem that cannot be solved collectively.

The Dufour 335 and Hanse 345 I think have some very interesting features for smaller cruisers and are a little ahead of the competition.

All just my opinion of course
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Last edited by daviid; 10-15-2012 at 06:57 AM.
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post #2807 of 6763 Old 10-15-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Hanse

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Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

Hanse's new 5 series - 345 which replaces the 355, 385, 415, 445 etc - are aimed at the charter market. Nothing wrong with that but they are definitely more cruiser than performance cruiser. With Dehler being part of the Hanse group, the Dehler is the performance cruiser in the group.

There is a lot to like about the 5 series if you are a cruiser. They all have cockpit tables, all the lines are lead back to the genoa winches for short handed sailing and for seperating the cockpit into a working/chilling area, twin helms for easy access, bathing platforms, self tacking jibs with large mainsails, no travelers in the cockpit. I know that you don't agree with me on this but I like their interiors which are very functional less is more Scandinavian loft type designs which owners can personalize themselves. Performance wise, Judel and Vrolijk have designed fast modern hulls that are a little heavier than the other AWB manufacturers - Dufour excluded - on account of the keel reinforcements in GRP. The increased weight is offset to an extent by having self tacking jibs that are maximised both in terms of size and roach which is controlled by vertical battens. Previous generation Hanses were known for their hull and rig focus but I think this is changing with the new generation.

As you say, it is difficult to distinguish many of the mainstream cruisers these days with personal taste playing the major part.

The Dufour 335 and Hanse 345 I think have some very interesting features for smaller cruisers and are a little ahead of the competition.

All just my opinion of course
Hi David!

I agree that for most cruisers, that don't value maximum control and performance, a over the cabin traveler is better than a traveler near the wheel since it allow a big bimini. You cannot see properly the sails with that bimini and therefore are not able to trim that correctly at all times but main stream cruisers don't care about that.

Anyway if they are performance cruisers they are looking to the wrong boat.

The problem is that the Hanse, like the oceanis, doesn't have a traveler at all, not even over the cabin, but the same system Oceanis use to control the main sail, a system that is easy but less efficient than a traveler and certainly cheaper. From the mentioned boats only the Jeanneau has a good traveler over the cabin.

Regarding the winches I never sailed the boat but it seems to me that if the rigging is properly organized having the four winches on the cockpit nearer the wheel makes sense and will give a better flexibility to their use allowing to have one for the mainsail and other for the geenaker or a bigger genoa and that is better than what Jeanneau and Oceanis offer. Not has good as what Bavaria offers since it is the only boat that offers has an option the 4 winches on the cockpit and the two over the cabin.

I am curious about the absolute absence of mention about an epoxy hull. Can you ask on the Hanse Forum if that is not offered anymore as an option and if they will make it how much weight saves regarding the standard boat?

Regards

Paulo

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post #2808 of 6763 Old 10-15-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo

When I was in Croatia last month, I noticed an Elan 350 with a bimini - not a helm bimini - with a slit/opening in it for the main sheet. It is the first time I have seen this.

On our Hanse 350, I have found that if you lead the mainsheet and jib sheet to the genoa winches whilst leaving the coachroof clutches open, I then have all the controls at hand. Even if our bimini is up, I am able to see the sail trim on the main quite easily by looking behind the bimini and up. Whilst I would still prefer a traveller for the control it gives you, it is the best set-up I can get.

The Elan 350 with bimini would be sailed in a similar way,albeit faster and with better control.

I have enquired about the epoxy option from Hanse on the forum - you can follow the responses here

http://www.myhanse.com/forum_posts.a...D=53871&#53871

Cheers

David

Last edited by daviid; 10-15-2012 at 06:32 AM.
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post #2809 of 6763 Old 10-15-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

When I was in Croatia last month, I noticed an Elan 350 with a bimini - not a helm bimini - with a slit/opening in it for the main sheet. It is the first time I have seen this.

On our Hanse 350, I have found that if you lead the mainsheet and jib sheet to the genoa winches whilst leaving the coachroof clutches open, I then have all the controls at hand. Even if our bimini is up, I am able to see the sail trim on the main quite easily by looking behind the bimini and up. Whilst I would still prefer a traveller for the control it gives you, it is the best set-up I can get.

The Elan 350 with bimini would be sailed in a similar way,albeit faster and with better control.

I have enquired about the epoxy option from Hanse on the forum - you can follow the responses here

EPOXY HULL OPTION - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum

Cheers

David
Hum, I doubt that set up for the bimini on the Elan 350 works well. Another and more practical solution is asking on a performance cruiser for the traveler to be installed over the cabin and then you can have a big bimini. I don't know if all the cruisers racers will do that but I know that Salona has that as an option.

Regards

Paulo
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post #2810 of 6763 Old 10-15-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Hum, I doubt that set up for the bimini on the Elan 350 works well. Another and more practical solution is asking on a performance cruiser for the traveler to be installed over the cabin and then you can have a big bimini. I don't know if all the cruisers racers will do that but I know that Salona has that as an option.

Regards

Paulo
I have been thinking about a traveller on the coachroof for a while but I have some doubts about it. These are:
  • the position means that you need to leave the helm if sailing short handed
  • the mainsheet control is unaffected by a traveller on the coachroof. in other words the mainsheet still needs to be controlled by a winch as opposed to manually using the fine tune adjuster which is one of the cockpit travellers main advantages
  • many experienced sailors argue that the coachroof traveller is useless in strong winds. Once released, it is very difficult to bring it back to center
  • the track is too short to have a real impact
  • the traveller's position still means you are engaging in mid boom sheeting which places the boom at risk in terms of a breakage;
  • can get in the way of the sprayhood
  • expensive to add on later

The positives include:
  • you can engage autopilot and sail the boat from the companionway by feathering the main in the gusts using the traveller
  • you can adjust the traveller to create the desired twist in the mainsail
  • you can position the traveller to windward to center the boom when sailing upwind
  • safer than a cockpit traveller because there are no sheets lying around or blocks to hit you on the head with

If you were not able to have a cockpit traveller for any reason, do you think it would be worth doing away with the block set-up seen on many cruisers these days to have a coachroof traveller, all things considered?

Last edited by daviid; 10-15-2012 at 07:33 AM.
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