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  #2861  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Hanse 415

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi, Andrew,

Have a look at page 308 posts 3072, 3073, 3074.

Please quote at will and tell us what you think about the boat and if you agree with the expressed opinions. Welcome to the discussion

Regards

Paulo
Sorry paulo, I missed that roundup of those three boats. Probably agree with you re the Swedestar as the pick of that litter. Very nice and for me that keel makes a lot of sense for a cruising boat, though admittedly not a lot of difference to the HR or the X. From the pics looks to be high quality fitout. Having lived with curved cusions on settee with our Malo that is one interior feature that I have come to loath.

The XC was for me the highlight of the recent Sydney Boat Show though to be honest it didn't have much competition. Not quite up to Malo or HR in interior fitout but overall nice boat and as you say would almost certainly outperform the HR. Maybe a bit too much of a racer for me ? Not sure. Teak deck was not my idea of a quality deck but if I was buying new I wouldn't go teak deck, just cockpit.

I know it is conservative but ignoring the dollars I would still be happy with the HR, the interior works pretty well for me, overall best build quality if we exclude any Malos and small features for me make her a better all round long term cruiser.

I should go back and look at the similar sized current model Malos. I cannot remember why I dismissed them. Maybe because the comparitive model(s) are getting a bit old now.

btw .... I love those turning blocks on the coachroof of the Comet. How clever is that ?

cheers

Andrew B
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  #2862  
Old 10-23-2012
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Re: Hanse 415

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Sorry paulo, I missed that roundup of those three boats. Probably agree with you re the Swedestar as the pick of that litter. Very nice and for me that keel makes a lot of sense for a cruising boat, though admittedly not a lot of difference to the HR or the X. From the pics looks to be high quality fitout. Having lived with curved cusions on settee with our Malo that is one interior feature that I have come to loath.

The XC was for me the highlight of the recent Sydney Boat Show though to be honest it didn't have much competition. Not quite up to Malo or HR in interior fitout but overall nice boat and as you say would almost certainly outperform the HR. Maybe a bit too much of a racer for me ? Not sure. Teak deck was not my idea of a quality deck but if I was buying new I wouldn't go teak deck, just cockpit.

I know it is conservative but ignoring the dollars I would still be happy with the HR, the interior works pretty well for me, overall best build quality if we exclude any Malos and small features for me make her a better all round long term cruiser.

I should go back and look at the similar sized current model Malos. I cannot remember why I dismissed them. Maybe because the comparative model(s) are getting a bit old now.

btw .... I love those turning blocks on the coachroof of the Comet. How clever is that ?

cheers

Andrew B
Hi Andrew,

Now you get me confused. I was hopping for your opinion about the Hanse 415 and a comment on posts 3072, 3073, 3074, pag 308 that are about the Hanse, that I know, it is a big sales success in Australia. I still would like your opinion about the boat and a comment on what was said.

Your comments on the Halberg Rassy, Xc-Yacht, swedestar are more then welcomed but in what regards the Xc 42, its performances and sea motion I am afraid I do not agree with you. In fact I think that the boat is such a good looker that you associated it with a performance boat. It is not, it is a family offshore cruiser with the same sailing program of the HR.

To give you an idea of the difference of that boat to a performance cruiser from the XP line, the XP 44, a bigger boat weights 8650kg while the smaller XC 42 weights 11400kg.

The Xc42 is heavier than the HR412 but those extra 300kg are not due to an heavier hull but to a bigger B/D ratio. This will make the XC42 a better blue water boat (more stability and stifness) than the HR and has it is heavier, also more comfortable in a sea motion (even if the difference would be hardly noticeable) and in the end being better on both counts is also better on the third one, speed, but not for much and the difference will be found especially in bad weather upwind: more power

I hope to have convinced you that the XC is not a performance cruiser (much less a racer) and it is in fact a boat with the same program of the HR, because that is simply true

Regarding the interior I don't think it is a difference in quality but in style. The HR still has all those woods while the XC chooses more high quality synthetic materials, with wood being a part of them. The reason is weight, that on the XC is on the ballast and not on the hull. This is of course a question of taste and your's is as good as mine I find the more modern interior of the XC 42 more appealing than the more traditional interior of the HR.

The Swedestar is a completely different animal and I would say that it has the traditional quality interior of the HR but in what regards program and performance it will be at mid way between the X performance line and the X cruising line and I think that is what makes it a very interesting boat for the ones that want to sail faster than on a HR or XC but want to do it with more comfort than on a typical performance cruiser.

Best regards

Paulo

....

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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  #2863  
Old 10-24-2012
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Malo 40 versus HR 412 and XC 42

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
...

I know it is conservative but ignoring the dollars I would still be happy with the HR, the interior works pretty well for me, overall best build quality if we exclude any Malos and small features for me make her a better all round long term cruiser.

I should go back and look at the similar sized current model Malos. I cannot remember why I dismissed them. Maybe because the comparitive model(s) are getting a bit old now.

...

cheers

Andrew B

I guess these deserves a separated answer. I guess the Swedestar is a bit less expensive if compared with HR 412 and the XC 42. Those two have similar prices, the last time I checked up, about 450 000 euros for a decently equipped boat.

Regarding the Malo40 I don't think that it is outdated, specially the classic version (I found the standard one a bit heavy on the transom design in what regards aesthetics but even so I don't think the transom of the HR looks better).

In what regards hull design and design typology I would say that the Malo will stand between the Swedestar and the HR or XC (you did not expect that, at least in what regards the XC).

Comparing with the HR 412 the Malo is a lot less beamier (3.83 to 4.11m) it has a slightly better B/D (38% to 36%) for just less 7cms in draft, similar keels but most of all it weights less 1.5T for a not very different sail area (87 to 90m2).

This makes almost the Malo a performance boat compared with the HR 412

Beside the weight the biggest difference is in hull design. The HR follows the main tendency in what regards increased beam. That will give a more stable boat (at least in small sailing angles of heel) a boat that will sail with less heel, a better boat in downwind sailing (less roll), a worse boat and less comfortable in upwind sailing even if in what regards comfort the superior weight can contribute to compensate that.

Regarding the XC42, even taking into consideration that it is a bigger boat, it is comparable with the HR in beam and weight but the XC42 but has a much better B/D than the two other boats (43% to 38% and 36%). That (and beam) will make it by far the boat with a better overall stability and probably the best bluewater boat.

Now, to your surprise, probably, in most sailing situations, the Malo will be faster









Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-24-2012 at 11:06 AM.
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  #2864  
Old 10-24-2012
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Re: Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
"The yacht is well balanced with emphasis on stability and lightweight..."
If the boat hadn´t been lightweight to Dehler standards, I wonder what the weight would´ve been then!

//Mr W
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  #2865  
Old 10-24-2012
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Re: Dehler 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
If the boat hadn´t been lightweight to Dehler standards, I wonder what the weight would´ve been then!

//Mr W
To be completely honest I have to say that the guys from Dehler give more information about the boat than the guys from Salona.

Salona boats have a great deal of customization and you can have many options but basically they have 3 flexible different grades while Dehler has two rigid ones.

The first one, the cheapest boat on Salona, we can call the cruising version. Than they have a performance cruising version and a race version (IBC).

I believe the weight they give on their site is the one of the performance version that has 2.28m draft and is a vinilester/epoxy boat cored with airex.

The ballast they give on the site is the one with 1.98m. The boat with 2.28m has less ballast, if I remember well 2000Kg. The boat I almost bought was a performance version with a 2.25m draft but with 2250kg of ballast.

If I am right about that then the cruising version should weight more 400kg than the performance version and that will give a weight for that boat of about 6900kg and that is close to the weight of the cruising Dehler 38.

The Dehler in race version has 6600kg and that will correspond to the 6500kg of the Salona performance version. Only the IBC, the racing version of the Salona would be lighter.

I guess the difference is on the prices: the Salona performance cruiser version that corresponds to the Dehler racing version (built the same way) is less expensive than their basic version, that they call cruiser, that contrary to the racer version is balsa cored.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2866  
Old 10-24-2012
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Middle the sea race

After the line honors on Giraglia Esimit Europa has done the same on the Middle the sea race

Some images:






Only four boats have finished already the race. You can follow the others here:

Rolex Middle Sea Race

Fantastic race of Kuka Light, a small 42ft boat that is coming on the front pack, close to a very fast Coockson 50 and a Vismara 62 that has also made a great race (that is a performance cruiser among racing boats).



http://www.kuka-light.com/

Last edited by PCP; 10-24-2012 at 07:21 PM.
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  #2867  
Old 10-25-2012
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Swan 60

Not to much wind on the Middle sea race. While we wait for some decent footage let's have a look at the relatively new Swan 60. Swan were known by its classical fast boats. Not anymore, I mean not in what regards fast. To be competitive they are not classical anymore.

Look at this Swan 60: It looks more a luxurious TP52 than an older Swan



Now have a look at the boat interior:



That's what I call speed with style

Last edited by PCP; 10-25-2012 at 08:28 AM.
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  #2868  
Old 10-25-2012
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Middle sea race

And this are the boats that interest us most: Not racing boats neither big and ugely expensive performance cruisers, but performance cruisers between 30 and 45ft, affordable boats and many that you can find already on the used market:



On this group the one that is leading is a J122 followed by a 40ft ILC racer ahead of an VOR60, a Swan 56, three class40 racers,

Lisa a 44.7 First is not far away, ahead of another class40 and Elusive a First 45 is very near to that 40class racer.

Libertine a Comet 45 is also close, ahead of another J122.

Further back, in another group, another VOR60 followed by a Comet 51.

Than a Xp44 side by side with a X41 racer, a J111, and another 40class racer.

Just a bit back, another J122.

Then another group, leaded by three boats very close: a Marina carbon 36, a Comet 45 and a Grand Soleil 43. Not very far away, very close, an Elan 350 and a Salona 44.

and then a lot of more boats behind, some big but not fast, like a Carter55 or a Bavaria 50 vision.

There are here some surprising results only possible because this was a race with weak winds, like it is not unusual on the Med and that does not give a big advantage to the bigger boats.

To register the incredible good performance of the first J122 and globally of all J122, the mediocre performance of the two Vor 60 and of many class40 racers and the good performance of an Elan 350.

That indicates that on these conditions boats with the type of hull based on 40class racers are poor performers while more narrow traditional boats perform better. We can see that the 40class racers, much lighter and built for racing have here a performance similar to a well sailed 40ft performance cruiser. I guess that a boat like the cruising Pogo, more heavier and with a lot less sail would have done a lot worst, I mean in real time.

I hope that J122 win in real time. It seems to me they deserve it


....


...
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  #2869  
Old 10-25-2012
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Middle the sea race

While that incredibly fast j122 fights with an VOR60 (unimaginable but true Rolex Middle Sea Race ) some more movie, better ones:







These MOVIES are nicer and of better quality but you have to see them from the site:


Grand start for the Rolex Middle Sea Race | VSail.info


Rolex Middle Sea Race: Welcome


Giraglia Rolex Cup | Esimit Europa 2


And we can see that the winner is also a very narrow boat, much more than the VOR boats or RAN. I guess the Med likes less beamier boats


....

Last edited by PCP; 10-25-2012 at 02:03 PM.
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  #2870  
Old 10-25-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo,
Sorry old friend, bit of confusion caused by me re those last posts of mine. Suffice it to say I didn't take in the posts re the Hanse and went straight for the HR. Remember that I am not so concerned with the performance as you are and look more for acceptable comfort levels both inside and out. For that I feel the HR makes most sense, even over the Malo for me. That said, I would also much prefer either the Swede or XC over the Hanse.

If you remember we looked quite seriously at the previous generation Hanse 400 before we bought the Malo and to be frank it was our overall disappointment with the Hanse that pushed us towards Malo. At the time I'd have gone preferably for a Dehler 45, even over the Malo but there were none available even vaguely in our price range. Hanse for me is just too Ikea down below. Really poor quality fitout in every respect though I admit they have a wonderful layout, shame they make it out of papier mache. if all I wanted was a weekend cruiser that would not be embarassed around the buoys then I guess the Hanse would do but that is not my preference.

To clear something up re Malo .... I was referring to the Malo 43 not the 40. The 40 was (I think) the first of the new generation Malos, the successor to our own Malo 39. The Malo 43 is the last of the old school Malos, I guess a replacement must be due very soon. For me I think that a new generation Malo 43 would be a dream boat. everything our 39 has with a bit more performance and a bit more room down below.

As to the transom stern v reverse sheer ..... I confess that with the older boats I like the transom but with the wider backside of the new models it looks clumsy. The transom stern does however offer a lot more in the way of storage capacity in the lazarette.


Cheers

Andrew B
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