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  #2901  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: Nautical Market

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

My thoughts
  • Sailing is an expensive hobby that requires some serious disposable income
  • It also requires time
  • Unless you are a trust account kid, it is totally understandable that the average age for private ownership is on the up for these 2 reasons
  • This also explains the massive growth in the charter market that can cater to sailors of all ages. If you want to sail for 2 or 3 weeks a year, then charter
  • If you are wanting to sail for more than 2 or 3 weeks , I believe that fractional ownership is the way to go. The initial cost is shared as are all the running costs.
  • If you are able to sail for 12 weeks and longer, then you could consider outright ownership either via a charter company ownership scheme or direct where you are responsible for maintenance etc
  • Some charter companies have ownership schemes which offer a lot of flexibility providing you are able to make use of the boat for around 12 weeks per year. Sailing for less than 12 weeks makes these schemes expensive. The downside with these schemes is that you are often told what to buy by the charter company. This of course may or may not be a bad thing . At the end of these schemes, you can either roll your investment into another new boat or adopt fractional ownership. The other downside is that the depreciation in value is often under estimated by the the charter companies
  • If you have the time to sail for at least 3 months a year, then buying your own boat makes sense. If you wanr to avoid the inevitable depreciation of buying new, then the best value purchase is from a reputable charterer at the end of 5 years when you can have the boat surveyed, have all the problems fixed and get a new set of sails. The engine hours on the boat should be irrelevant. A well maintained diesel engine is capable of doing 15000 hours. If you want to sail for more than 2 to 3 weeks but don't have the time to sail for more than say 12 weeks per year, then buy one of these boats and get some co-owners to share the costs - this way, you will avoid the capital depreciation cost.
  • The charter companies are buying boats that are becoming bigger and bigger because many charterers are sharing the costs and the need for more accommodation on board is on the up
  • On the other hand we know that sail boats and common sense often have nothing to do with one another ))))

Just my opinion of course

Onwards n upwards

David
Well, logic does not always work in what regards sailing boats

If I had a boat in shared ownership I would not feel that it was mine and I would be always pissed with the way other owners treated the boat. I know myself, I am quite a maniac in what regards taking care of my boat and for what I can understand I am not the only one around this forum. On other hand, having been for some time looking for an used boats I could see how people take car of their boats and the general picture is quite bad.

Regarding buying a charter boat after 5 years, well, they are cheaper but for a reason: In terms of use those 5 years correspond to 20 in what regards the average boat for sell by a private owner.

In what regards engine, 15 000 hours is a maximum but after about half of it the boat needs a complete reconstruction and most just buy a new engine at that time. The maintenance of an engine with many hours is a lot more expensive than one with a few hours and the chances that something go wrong is bigger.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2902  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Now they both look way to big for anything I'd want or need and they are by no means classically beautiful but I like the look of both of them. Certainly they both look to be of great character, not to mention individual.

Presumably very modern below the waterline, though hopefully not equipped with one of those awful torpedo keels.
Hi, Andrews,

Well, it seems that you were the only one that find those boats sufficiently interesting to deserve a comment.

I don't know the boats or the designers. They are obviously one offs and the first one seems to have some years while the last one seems brand new, The first one (two masts) has a very unusual expensive rig that it makes a lot of sense to me in what regards sailing on a big boat with a very short crew. Its design seems to be Dutch.

The second one, obviously an aluminium one is almost for sure a French design. It looks very modern, fast and can even be a centerboarder.

If someone knows of anything more about those boats I would be interested.

In what regards torpedo keels they may not look well to you but there are a good reason for their use: efficiency. On a 40ft boat like yours (Malo 40), with an all lead keel they can save almost half a ton of weight for the same effect. Weight is not a good thing in any sailboat even if you seem to think otherwise

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-02-2012 at 10:36 AM.
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  #2903  
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Vendee Globe

Regarding sailboat popularity in Europe, particularly in France, some good news:

"The first week of the Race Village opening drew a record number of spectators. Since 20 October, no less than 230,000 people (including 10,000 school children) have walked the pontoons where the 20 participating boats are moored. The race's popularity is clearly evident.


The success of this 7th edition is also obvious online. The race's official website drew 200,000 visitors in a week."


Vendée Globe: record attendance | Yacht News | Yachting World


Webisode 6 : La vie s'accélère aux Sables d'Olonne por VendeeGlobeTV



The race starts in about a week


...
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  #2904  
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Pogo 30

Looking good!!



//Mr W
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  #2905  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I cannot resist to post photos two boats that caught my attention during my summer cruise. What do you think about them?



The boat on top sports a very odd sailplan. To my eye, the main is extremely small, and the spreaders look like they are swept back at least 45deg. , making the only main useless and chafeprone while reaching. Also, she is a little hard on the eyes.
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  #2906  
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Re: Dehler 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Well guys, Dehler launches a new 38!







LOA 11,30 m
LWL 10,40 m
Beam 3,75 m

Draft 2,00 m standard – 2,30 m competition
Displacement 7 000 kg standard – 6 600kg competition
Ballast 2 250 kg standard – 2 000 kg competition
Mast length above WL 17,82 standard – 18,20 competition

Total sail area
79,3 m² standard
82,4m² competition

Main sail 43,7/46,0 m²
Furling Jib 35,6/36,4m² (105%)

Only a foot longer than Dufour 36 Performance but 600kg heavier, at least in cruising spec. Hmm...

I like the Dehler 38R that should have been released a couple of years back better :





LOA 11,46 m
LWL 10,48 m
Beam 3,75 m

Draft 2,40
Displacement (light) 5 400 kg

Main sail 48,6 m²
Jib 36,0 m²
Code 0 95,0 m²
Spinnaker (mast head) 129 m²
I was wondering when Dehler was going to address the gaping hole between 35 and 41 ft.. Maybe they will have a finished boat for Duesseldorf. Looks interresting. Hopefully the Dehler interior quality has not downgraded to Hanse standards.
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  #2907  
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New boat: Solaris 42

I post many types of boats that please many different sailors. I find them interesting and may beautiful but there are few that I like to own. This is one of those.

What a beautiful sailboat! Well some would say it is expensive but it costs not more than a HR for a similar quality, has a great interior and gives 2 times the sailing pleasure. I know, I know, some just like to cruise and want a sailboat that does the job with the least of sensations and max efficiency. Ok, ot is comprehensibly and makes sense...to some, I am not one of them

























They say about the boat:

For over 35 years Solaris has been creating yachts with the same philosophy, designed and built to navigate safely for many years…

Design of the waterlines is entrusted to Soto Acebal, one of the world’s best naval architects, Ensuring excellent performance thanks to modern hull shapes and volumes designed for speed, stability and righting moment.

The main feature of this new 42’, planned and implemented during the design stage, is a particularly solid construction unaffected by deformation and torsion in all sea and wind conditions. For this reason the 42’, like all other Solaris models, boasts virtually unique reinforcing structures, that are very costly and not possible without labor-intensive techniques:

all the 40 mm thick composite bulkheads are laminated not only to the hull, but also and in particular to the deck without need of inner mouldings and silicone. …To further increase the structural stiffness all joinery is laminated to the hull. Moreover there is a structural continuity of the mast, main bulkhead, chainplates and keel attachment.
..
The 42’, thanks to a precise distribution of weight and ballast, shows reduced pitch and roll ensuring smooth sailing through the waves; the boat is perfectly balanced and light at the wheels, ensuring, safe, fast and enjoyable whelming...

The new 42’ is consistent with the philosophy that has always distinguished Solaris: building yachts for people who really go to sea and who appreciate: structural strength, stiffness and rigidity, combined with excellent performance in real time. All these are the real essence of seaworthiness.



Technicalcharacteristics Solaris One 42’
Loa 12.36 m
Beam 3.99 m
Draft 2.25/2.50/
Displacement 8.8t
Ballast 3.00 t
Mainsal 52 m2
Genoa (108%) 45 m2
Engine (Volvo Penta)40/55 hp
Fuel 220 l
Water 350 l
Designer Javier Soto Acebal
Interior design Lucio Micheletti

And I would say that this boat offers a moderated beam in what concerns modern tendencies (considerably lesser than most mass production 40ft cruisers) a modern hull with beam brought back (but nor really on the waterline), an highly efficient torpedo keel and an acceptable draft for cruising (2.25) while being enough to give a good performance to the ballast without the need of increasing it too much to compensate a lesser draft.

And with that high efficiency keel and considerable draft this boat has a a B/D of 34%. A stiff boat no doubt,

Not being an ultra light boat its weight is smaller than many mass production 40fts while having a sail area that will put it on the side of the more conservative performance cruisers.

A great boat, I am sure

I hope to see one on the Dusseldorf boat show. This one was presented in Hamburg.

....

Last edited by PCP; 11-02-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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  #2908  
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Re: Dehler 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I was wondering when Dehler was going to address the gaping hole between 35 and 41 ft.. Maybe they will have a finished boat for Duesseldorf. Looks interresting. Hopefully the Dehler interior quality has not downgraded to Hanse standards.
One of the things I have noticed on this boat was that the quality of the interior design was incomparably better than on the Dehler 41. I hope the quality too.







Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-02-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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  #2909  
Old 11-02-2012
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Pogo 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Looking good!!



//Mr W
I am very curious about this boat. As you know the Pogo 30 is a remake of the Pogo 8.50, a famous boat on Pogo story. The Pogo 8.50 was the first Pogo that, being more pointed to competition, namely the Transquadra, was what we could call the first Pogo that was also presented as a boat that could be used as a camping cruising boat.

I expect the Pogo 30 to have a better cruising interior and certainly with its swing keel will be a better cruising boat, but will it be faster than the 8.50?

Let's have a look at the 8.50:














The boat won the 2001 Transquadra but the boat is not competitive anymore and since The jeanneau 3200 and the A31 come to scene the difference in real time on the Transquadra is huge. Can the Pogo 30 beat the A31? I have some doubts. The boat is very similar to the 8.50 but 64cms longer . It has more 10cm of beam (3.60 to 3.70m) has more 6m2 of sail (53 to 59m2) but regarding the weight we don't know nothing and I doubt the boat can be lighter than the 8.50 (2800kg), probably it will be heavier.

So, I am very curious because this will be very relevant in what regards the performance of two different types of boats, the A31 and the Pogo 30.

Of course we are talking about a Transat that is basically a downwind race. In a upwind race the A31 would smoke the 8.50. In fact the 8.50 and the Pogo 30 in what concerns racing will be limited to Transats or offshore downwind races while the A31 is not only a great solo boat but also a winner in regatta with a crew. Of course, the running rigging will be completely different for crew and solo racing.

The A31:





We don't know the Pogo 30 ballast or B/D ratio but probably it will be similar to the 8.50 (30%) That is low if compared with the one from the A31 (43%). So we have two very different hulls, one more narrow (3.23) but with a bigger B/D ratio and other beamier (3.60) but with a smaller B/D.

Till now the A31 comes out with flying colors but the A31 is a 9.55m boat against one with 8.50m. Now the things will be more even, with the 9.14m of the new Pogo 30. I guess we will have to wait for the next Transquadra to know

The new Pogo 30:




Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2012 at 07:24 AM.
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  #2910  
Old 11-03-2012
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Pogo 50

New movie with the Pogo 50



I have to say I am not impressed: making 10.5K with 26.3K of wind at 100º is not a big deal for a performance 50ft boat ad the sea was pretty flat for that wind. Just to give you an example the XP 44, a boat with a better interior and smaller indicates on its ORC file 10.8K with 20k wind at 110º.

This impression is confirmed by the speeds measured on a test made by voile and voiliers. they got: 8.6K speed at 45º with 16k TW.......7.5K at 50º with 10k TW....8.3K at 110º with 9k TW....12K at 140º with 13k TW. All this with almost flat sea.

If we compare this values with the ones from the Xp44 ORC file: 8.53 at 52º with 16k wind, 7.80k at 52º with 10k wind, 8.44K at 120º with 10k wind. The 140º speed value is not comparable since on the ORC file it is a value without a Spinaker and they used a big geenaker om the Pogo test.


The angles are not exactly the same (I have to use the ones on the ORC file) and they slightly favor the Xp 44, but then the XP 44 is a 13.29m boat and the Pogo 50 a 15.10m boat.

I am sure Pogo will make the difference downwind with 25/30k winds, but then, who cruises with 30K winds?

On other hand, upwind with waves the Pogo's wave drag will be much bigger than the one of the Xp 44 and I am sure that those almost similar numbers will turn clearly in favor of the XP44. Of course we are talking about a smaller boat, now, if the new XP 50 proves to be proportionally faster regarding the XP44...

Polars, contrary top the values on a ORC file not always completely accurate but have a look at the XP 50 Polar speeds:

http://www.x-yachts.com/uploads/Xp_5...rtrait.pdf.pdf

And the XP 50 is a boat with a gorgeous cruising interior...of course, more expensive but probably faster than the Pogo almost all the time on normal sailing circumstances.

But we are only talking about speed. The Pogo 50, that seems to have a basic but decent and practical interior will be probably easier and simpler to sail than the XP 50 and it will be a more appropriated boat to sail downwind and that's what we do on a circumnavigation, where the Pogo, will be a perfect boat: Fast, stable, easy and with a ridiculously small draft for a boat of that size.

...

Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2012 at 08:49 AM.
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