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  #2901  
Old 10-31-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Paulo, not Paolo
Sorry Paulo, it won´t happen again...

//Mr W
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  #2902  
Old 10-31-2012
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Elan 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Sorry Paulo, it won´t happen again...

//Mr W
Well, I am started to be used. Half the guys write it that way. Welcome to the educated ones. Paolo is Italian, Paul is English, Pablo is Spanish, Pavle is Croat, Paavali is Finnish, Paulus is Latin, Paulius is Lithuanian and Paulo is Portuguese and I am Portuguese

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Here´s the latest addition from Elan, the 400!



And specs:

Overall Length 11.95
Length WL 11.26
Beam 3.87
Draft 2.40
Engine 40 hp
Water Capacity 310 liters
Fuel Capacity 170 liters

Mainsail 54.56
Genoa 37.6
Gennaker 135

Weight???

...
What´s your opinion?

//Mr W
It is has not too much beam and all pulled aft, very little rocker and without the ballast it is hard to say more. The Elan 350 relied a lot on form stability and the B/D ratio is only 26%. That is low on a performance cruiser and that's one of the few things I don't like on that boat. Maybe this one is different?

Regarding weight I would say this is going to be a light boat with around 6.5T otherwise that sail area will not be able to make it a fast boat.

The boat really looks good but that interior seems to be quite badly designed. The boat has a tiny galley and the head design seems odd. It would be preferable to have only an aft cabin with a good storage space and a decent galley.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-31-2012 at 05:39 PM.
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  #2903  
Old 11-01-2012
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Hey Paulo,

of course I know that there is a big difference between the Salona and maybe a SunFast. What I do not know up to now is how much comfort I am going to need. I guess the Salona is too much but the SunFast might be too less.

There are some boats on my wishlist that I want to have a detailed view on.

From racer to cruiser (as I think):

Jeanneau SunFast 36
Archambault A35
Summit 35 (wheeled version)
MacConaghy MC R35
Beneteau First 35
J/108
Salona 35s (Performance or IBC)
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  #2904  
Old 11-01-2012
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Elan 400

Some more images:









And still nothing on the Elan website

They had removed the "old" Elan 410 and have nothing about this boat.

Regarding this boat why do i think it is going to be a much lighter boat?

If the information posted by K is correct in what regards sail area, this boat will have 92.12m2 of sail. The 410 has 105.1m2 for 8300kg. The 410 is a great fast cruising boat but it proved to be too slow on the regatta course.

So they need a faster boat and they will have one with less 13m2 of sail? That can only mean a much lighter boat.

If we compare both boats:





We will see that the last one has less wet area, less rocker and that particularly on the aft part of the hull the boat has a soft line from the keel till the transom. That is a boat designed to plane downwind and for that it has to be light

We can see also that they have a more efficient keel and two rudders instead of one. All good news in what regards speed and control. Not so much in what regards sea motion and comfort, but we cannot have it all can we?

Last edited by PCP; 11-01-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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  #2905  
Old 11-01-2012
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Nautical Market

Some interesting facts and comments:

Europe:

Today the number of produced boats is less than half of what it was is 2007.

There is a 40% increase in the boats over 40ft and a 60% decrease on boats with less than 40ft. That make the total decrease in market value effectively a lot less than 50% comparing with 2007.

The average age of the buyer of a new boat is 60 years old

Somme comments:

It seems to me that the crisis is here to stay at that many of the boats are bought by retired guys, with age to enjoy the boats, by guys that have been saving all along their live or enjoy a comfortable financial position at the end of its working life.

Young people are not buying and I guess the reasons are clear:

One factor is that what was initially convenient for big boat builders seems to be turning against them: Most of them change of model each 3 or 4 years and that leads to a devaluation of almost new boats on the market making in fact a good business to buy a 5 year old boat at 50% of a new boat.

Another factor is the cost of owning a boat in a nice place. They are high and have been increasing. When I sold my 6 year's old mass market 36ft I made some calculations and found out that it had cost me over 15 000 euros a year and that is in Portugal. On most Europe you will pay a lot more, and even more if it is a bigger boat.

This kind of money will allow you to charter a new boat for 7 weeks on a year (on the nicest spots) and that is more than what most people enjoy in a year, so it is only natural that young guys that have money for new boats opt for charter and leave all the hassle and money that cost to maintain a boat behind.

Conclusion:

I don't see any indication that the costs associated with having a boat are decreasing, nor the crisis, quite the contrary, so I would guess this is a tendency that is going to be maintained:

A bigger target market for old guys that want boats bigger than 40ft (many retired), a target Charter Market for 40ft boats or bigger, a small market for guys rich enough to race/cruiser on new top of the cream boats, and a tiny market for true racing boats. The market for cruisers smaller than 38ft will continue to decrease, while inexpensive day boats (and even expensive ones) will be on the raise.

Looking at the positive side, the interest on sail and sailboats and the boats on the water seems not having decreased I would say that has even increased:

The Boat show tickets had not decreased in number and it seems to me that on charting grounds the number of sailing boats is bigger each year.

Care to comment?

...

Last edited by PCP; 11-01-2012 at 01:37 PM.
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  #2906  
Old 11-01-2012
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MacConaghy MCR35

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Hey Paulo,

of course I know that there is a big difference between the Salona and maybe a SunFast. What I do not know up to now is how much comfort I am going to need. I guess the Salona is too much but the SunFast might be too less.

There are some boats on my wishlist that I want to have a detailed view on.

From racer to cruiser (as I think):

Jeanneau SunFast 36
Archambault A35
Summit 35 (wheeled version)
MacConaghy MC R35
Beneteau First 35
J/108
Salona 35s (Performance or IBC)
Jesus, every guy that likes to go fast would dream to have a MacConaghy MCR35 bur unless you have a lot of money to give for a small boat it is just a dream. The boat costs USD 280 000 without tax and I am not sure that is not the price in Australia, I mean you would have to add shipping costs. This is a boat on the A35 class but faster and more expensive. A boat that weights only 4025Kg and I bet, at least 40% is ballast.







McConaghy Boats - MC-R 35

We never talked about the Summit 35, probably because the boat has some years but we talked about its big brother the King 40, also called Summit 40.

The Summit 35 it is also on the same class of the A35, a bit heavier but with a bigger B/D ratio and as fast if not more. It is also a lot more expensive.



Compared with all those the Jeanneau 3200 is inexpensive

I don't understand why you put the J108 on that list. It is a slow boat much slower than any of the others. If you want to put a J there put the J111.

I guess you have to define a budget, I mean what money do you have for a boat? and then what use are you going to give to your boat?

Remember that one thing is a boat that needs a full crew to exploit its potential, other boats that are easy to sail solo and that for the price of a high-tech boat used mostly for racing you can have a bigger performance cruiser that can go as fast with a solo sailor, with more comfort and a better sea motion and a lot more of interior space.

Of course if it is mostly for racing with a crew that is a different story.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-01-2012 at 04:19 PM.
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  #2907  
Old 11-01-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I cannot resist to post photos two boats that caught my attention during my summer cruise. What do you think about them?



Now they both look way to big for anything I'd want or need and they are by no means classically beautiful but I like the look of both of them. Certainly they both look to be of great character, not to mention individual.

Presumably very modern below the waterline, though hopefully not equipped with one of those awful torpedo keels.
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  #2908  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: Nautical Market

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Some interesting facts and comments:

Europe:

Today the number of produced boats is less than half of what it was is 2007.

There is a 40% increase in the boats over 40ft and a 60% decrease on boats with less than 40ft. That make the total decrease in market value effectively a lot less than 50% comparing with 2007.

The average age of the buyer of a new boat is 60 years old

Somme comments:

It seems to me that the crisis is here to stay at that many of the boats are bought by retired guys, with age to enjoy the boats, by guys that have been saving all along their live or enjoy a comfortable financial position at the end of its working life.

Young people are not buying and I guess the reasons are clear:

One factor is that what was initially convenient for big boat builders seems to be turning against them: Most of them change of model each 3 or 4 years and that leads to a devaluation of almost new boats on the market making in fact a good business to buy a 5 year old boat at 50% of a new boat.

Another factor is the cost of owning a boat in a nice place. They are high and have been increasing. When I sold my 6 year's old mass market 36ft I made some calculations and found out that it had cost me over 15 000 euros a year and that is in Portugal. On most Europe you will pay a lot more, and even more if it is a bigger boat.

This kind of money will allow you to charter a new boat for 7 weeks on a year (on the nicest spots) and that is more than what most people enjoy in a year, so it is only natural that young guys that have money for new boats opt for charter and leave all the hassle and money that cost to maintain a boat behind.

Conclusion:

I don't see any indication that the costs associated with having a boat are decreasing, nor the crisis, quite the contrary, so I would guess this is a tendency that is going to be maintained:

A bigger target market for old guys that want boats bigger than 40ft (many retired), a target Charter Market for 40ft boats or bigger, a small market for guys rich enough to race/cruiser on new top of the cream boats, and a tiny market for true racing boats. The market for cruisers smaller than 38ft will continue to decrease, while inexpensive day boats (and even expensive ones) will be on the raise.

Looking at the positive side, the interest on sail and sailboats and the boats on the water seems not having decreased I would say that has even increased:

The Boat show tickets had not decreased in number and it seems to me that on charting grounds the number of sailing boats is bigger each year.

Care to comment?

...
Hi Paulo

My thoughts
  • Sailing is an expensive hobby that requires some serious disposable income
  • It also requires time
  • Unless you are a trust account kid, it is totally understandable that the average age for private ownership is on the up for these 2 reasons
  • This also explains the massive growth in the charter market that can cater to sailors of all ages. If you want to sail for 2 or 3 weeks a year, then charter
  • If you are wanting to sail for more than 2 or 3 weeks , I believe that fractional ownership is the way to go. The initial cost is shared as are all the running costs.
  • If you are able to sail for 12 weeks and longer, then you could consider outright ownership either via a charter company ownership scheme or direct where you are responsible for maintenance etc
  • Some charter companies have ownership schemes which offer a lot of flexibility providing you are able to make use of the boat for around 12 weeks per year. Sailing for less than 12 weeks makes these schemes expensive. The downside with these schemes is that you are often told what to buy by the charter company. This of course may or may not be a bad thing . At the end of these schemes, you can either roll your investment into another new boat or adopt fractional ownership. The other downside is that the depreciation in value is often under estimated by the the charter companies
  • If you have the time to sail for at least 3 months a year, then buying your own boat makes sense. If you wanr to avoid the inevitable depreciation of buying new, then the best value purchase is from a reputable charterer at the end of 5 years when you can have the boat surveyed, have all the problems fixed and get a new set of sails. The engine hours on the boat should be irrelevant. A well maintained diesel engine is capable of doing 15000 hours. If you want to sail for more than 2 to 3 weeks but don't have the time to sail for more than say 12 weeks per year, then buy one of these boats and get some co-owners to share the costs - this way, you will avoid the capital depreciation cost.
  • The charter companies are buying boats that are becoming bigger and bigger because many charterers are sharing the costs and the need for more accommodation on board is on the up
  • On the other hand we know that sail boats and common sense often have nothing to do with one another ))))

Just my opinion of course

Onwards n upwards

David

Last edited by daviid; 11-02-2012 at 06:03 AM.
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  #2909  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: Nautical Market

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

My thoughts
  • Sailing is an expensive hobby that requires some serious disposable income
  • It also requires time
  • Unless you are a trust account kid, it is totally understandable that the average age for private ownership is on the up for these 2 reasons
  • This also explains the massive growth in the charter market that can cater to sailors of all ages. If you want to sail for 2 or 3 weeks a year, then charter
  • If you are wanting to sail for more than 2 or 3 weeks , I believe that fractional ownership is the way to go. The initial cost is shared as are all the running costs.
  • If you are able to sail for 12 weeks and longer, then you could consider outright ownership either via a charter company ownership scheme or direct where you are responsible for maintenance etc
  • Some charter companies have ownership schemes which offer a lot of flexibility providing you are able to make use of the boat for around 12 weeks per year. Sailing for less than 12 weeks makes these schemes expensive. The downside with these schemes is that you are often told what to buy by the charter company. This of course may or may not be a bad thing . At the end of these schemes, you can either roll your investment into another new boat or adopt fractional ownership. The other downside is that the depreciation in value is often under estimated by the the charter companies
  • If you have the time to sail for at least 3 months a year, then buying your own boat makes sense. If you wanr to avoid the inevitable depreciation of buying new, then the best value purchase is from a reputable charterer at the end of 5 years when you can have the boat surveyed, have all the problems fixed and get a new set of sails. The engine hours on the boat should be irrelevant. A well maintained diesel engine is capable of doing 15000 hours. If you want to sail for more than 2 to 3 weeks but don't have the time to sail for more than say 12 weeks per year, then buy one of these boats and get some co-owners to share the costs - this way, you will avoid the capital depreciation cost.
  • The charter companies are buying boats that are becoming bigger and bigger because many charterers are sharing the costs and the need for more accommodation on board is on the up
  • On the other hand we know that sail boats and common sense often have nothing to do with one another ))))

Just my opinion of course

Onwards n upwards

David
Well, logic does not always work in what regards sailing boats

If I had a boat in shared ownership I would not feel that it was mine and I would be always pissed with the way other owners treated the boat. I know myself, I am quite a maniac in what regards taking care of my boat and for what I can understand I am not the only one around this forum. On other hand, having been for some time looking for an used boats I could see how people take car of their boats and the general picture is quite bad.

Regarding buying a charter boat after 5 years, well, they are cheaper but for a reason: In terms of use those 5 years correspond to 20 in what regards the average boat for sell by a private owner.

In what regards engine, 15 000 hours is a maximum but after about half of it the boat needs a complete reconstruction and most just buy a new engine at that time. The maintenance of an engine with many hours is a lot more expensive than one with a few hours and the chances that something go wrong is bigger.

Regards

Paulo
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  #2910  
Old 11-02-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Now they both look way to big for anything I'd want or need and they are by no means classically beautiful but I like the look of both of them. Certainly they both look to be of great character, not to mention individual.

Presumably very modern below the waterline, though hopefully not equipped with one of those awful torpedo keels.
Hi, Andrews,

Well, it seems that you were the only one that find those boats sufficiently interesting to deserve a comment.

I don't know the boats or the designers. They are obviously one offs and the first one seems to have some years while the last one seems brand new, The first one (two masts) has a very unusual expensive rig that it makes a lot of sense to me in what regards sailing on a big boat with a very short crew. Its design seems to be Dutch.

The second one, obviously an aluminium one is almost for sure a French design. It looks very modern, fast and can even be a centerboarder.

If someone knows of anything more about those boats I would be interested.

In what regards torpedo keels they may not look well to you but there are a good reason for their use: efficiency. On a 40ft boat like yours (Malo 40), with an all lead keel they can save almost half a ton of weight for the same effect. Weight is not a good thing in any sailboat even if you seem to think otherwise

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-02-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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