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  #3031  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Talking about yachts by Vallicelli reminded me of one that was a WOW when first launched in the late 90's : Oceano 54 by VR Yachts. I don't think they built many - maybe too expensive from a yard not well known outside of Italy ?

Elegant styling and a good compromise on hull volume by todays standards. Freeboard not excessive, nice large aft cockpit with drop down transom, interesting layouts and the Open 60 style pilot house still looks unique

The VR yachts website still has 2 pages with full details (see under "VR54" and then link to images) - can't yet post web links here & full size images as need 10 posts !
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  #3032  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

What happened to MACIF? 8 knots slower than le'Cleac and Stamm and lost about 20 miles...
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  #3033  
Old 11-15-2012
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Vallicelli VR 54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapwraia View Post
Talking about yachts by Vallicelli reminded me of one that was a WOW when first launched in the late 90's : Oceano 54 by VR Yachts. I don't think they built many - maybe too expensive from a yard not well known outside of Italy ?

Elegant styling and a good compromise on hull volume by todays standards. Freeboard not excessive, nice large aft cockpit with drop down transom, interesting layouts and the Open 60 style pilot house still looks unique

The VR yachts website still has 2 pages with full details (see under "VR54" and then link to images) - can't yet post web links here & full size images as need 10 posts !
Yes, expensive no doubt with a beautiful interior. 15 years after the boat still looks slick:









Already a twin wheel design with the winches at easy reach of the helmsman

Regards

Paulo
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  #3034  
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Vendee Globe

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
What happened to MACIF? 8 knots slower than le'Cleac and Stamm and lost about 20 miles...
Nothing special, he is finally paying for that more eastern option. Click on options and wind and have a look at the next hours: He is the one in the worst position...and Vincent the one in the best

http://tracking2012.vendeeglobe.org/en/

He describes the situation:

Ça va toujours bien à bord de Macif. On est dans un vent plus qu’instable et irrégulier donc je ne vais pas fanfaronner et dire que c’est simple. Au niveau de la mer, ça commence à se ranger, on a vu bien pire mais c’est surtout le vent qui tourne dans tous les sens. Il y a 20 minutes, j’ai eu droit à un 360.

He says that he has very unstable wind rounding in all directions and he says that 20m ago lost control of the boat and made a complete 360º turn.

I am very curious to see how many miles is Vincent going to recover. It looked like he had taken a bad choice...well, I am not sure now

Regards

Paulo
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  #3035  
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Nothing special, he is finally paying for that more eastern option. Click on options and wind and have a look at the next hours: He is the one in the worst position...and Vincent the one in the best
Umm, I already thought so, but I wondered wether the difference in wind and waves makes such a difference. Let's wait for the night...
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  #3036  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo, thanks for posting those images for the Oceano 54 ! I believe that dark blue one in the photo is on the market for EUR250k ! (lying Italy); given the used market today that's not entirely surprising but a good example of the headwinds facing the premium new boat market.

At 54 feet perhaps not a great comparison, but that's half the price of a new Hallberg Rassy 412 (incl. essential gear & tax) and we've all seen immaculate 10-15 year old yachts - well built, timeless lines and maintained/updated appropriately at very attractive prices.

That's a dilemma, esp. if one has EUR500k to commit to the "right" yacht but is equally happy to use half the budget. The "premium" new (production) boats seem like an attractive proposition - until you step aboard !
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  #3037  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

It's been an interesting experience to physically inspect a number of new models after having seen online photos, plans and various magazine reviews. The Hallberg Rassy 412 is one being praised by media as the benchmark high-end 40 footer. It ticks many boxes and is the product of a well respected yard & designer. Bob Perry's review in Sailing Magazine (online) summed it up well : "difficult to fault". Some aspects of the styling are not perfect, but I could probably live with it. However, once onboard and inspecting the details I was underwhelmed in the context of a EUR500k yacht.

This is a complex 40 footer in terms of equipment & systems, although componentry is first class. Down below it's detailing simply isn't the same as HR's of the past : panel gaps in the joinery & cabin sole are quite variable in places and the underside of berth-side shelves is not well finished (something you don't notice when standing but do when lying down). It all feels like a high quality kit-set; the question is whether that's good enough at this price point. The hull lining in the saloon around the hull port looks like white painted timber slatting but is actually a flimsy plastic moulding (even the HR rep was surprised when I pointed this out).

On deck the cockpit is very spacious, however not so good for the helmsman. The promotional photos give a clue with the helmsman looking like he's perched right on the transom; and this is actually the case - space between wheel & transom is not generous; and the transom panel (this lifts for stern access) is not very wide - approx 400mm - and when sitting on it you're quite conscious of the stern lifelines across your back. All not helped by the large moulded "command console" which forms part of the pedastal - way too big on a yacht this size and will take a lot of electronics to fill it.

This was disappointing because I was expecting the HR412 would justify the price. A new Malo berthed nearby was much less "production yacht" in terms of interior fit & finish (but surprised to see they still screw the teak deck veneer - why put hundreds of holes in a water tight cored structure ?); and the same weekend I looked at a couple of 10 year old Sweden Yachts - a 42 and 45 - the interior finish was still immaculate - in a different league to the HR412 (although overall design is a different generation).
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  #3038  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The X-Yachts XC series are logically optimal in many respects but seem to lack the emotional "X" factor one looks for in a yacht (no pun intended) and X-Yachts don't have the long-term value retention characteristics of HR despite being a similar price.

The new Allures & Ovni Evo's look interesting and well priced.

And so back to the distractions of the used market - never has there been so much choice at wide discounts to the new market, and for yachts over 13 metres the "new build" replacement cost is accelerating rapidly.

For example I recently looked at a 1990 47 footer - beautiful med displ cruiser from a top semi custom yard, 15 hulls launched, timeless design - cost new : EUR300k equiv. (a lot of money in 1990); asking EUR225k 18 mths ago; "asking" EUR150k since mid 2012 and little interest - very sound, original & well maintained but needs EUR100k (max) of updates. Replacement cost EUR1m !

These are all high quality problems of course
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

When I was looking for a new boat we did consider the HR. One thing that disturbed me in the design was HR's desire to push out the interior for more comfort and bigger berths. In doing so there was little locker space in the cockpit area. No large lazerette to store fenders, lines, even an outboard for those long passages where having outboard fastened to the stern stanchions is not wise. Our Boreal has a well thought out large locker in the stern that we can even put the non rib inflatable in. The Boreal also has a large bow locker for storage of sails,lines and fenders that is only accessed from the deck. This is possible because chain locker is just in front of the mast for better weight distribution. Both the lockers mentioned are water tight also. HR's are beautiful boats but did not fit our life styles of long passages where keeping deck clean is important.

There are so many things to consider in a good blue water cruising boat. Seems so many companies now are totally into interior design more than the important design concepts that keep us safe where we spend most of our time while on passage, outside keeping watch and reefing sails.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Sapwraia, I understand what you say about older Halberg-Rassy but simply today Rassy are much better sailing boats. Not sure a X yacht has less value as used than a HR. Regarding design I have already said I think the XC42 is a better design that the HR 412, that is also a good sailing boat:

a recent video from a boat test on Yacht magazine:

MOVIE:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Sch%25C3%25...ac1eb214ca2be9

I agree that today it is possible to have great prices in boats with few years but an used boat is not a new boat and really it is all about money: New ones are better than old ones; there is nothing like owning a brand new boat; used boats are a better deal and offer more value for the money.

I agree that the Sweeden Yacht 42 is a very good boat, a beauty and has an impeccable finish...but it was still more expensive that the HR I still love that boat

Here one of their last boats before going bankrupt, the 54:



Beautiful boats but I guess too expensive even for luxury boats.


hannah2, I agree that today's boats are more geared towards enjoying life and sail than to voyaging and that's simply because there are not many sailors that use them to do long range voyaging and what is adequate for that is not the best recipe to have a boat to enjoy sailing or to live at the marina or at anchor in a nice warm place.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-15-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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