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  #3061  
Old 11-17-2012
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Vendee Globe

For the ones that had missed it from the start, a very good resume of the race...and in English

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  #3062  
Old 11-18-2012
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Vendee Globe

Jesus, another one with big problems


Jérémie Beyou parle de sa quille 2 por VendeeGlobeTV


Jérémie Beyou parle de sa quille por VendeeGlobeTV

Last night at 2100 UTC, Jérémie Beyou skipper of Maître CoQ, lying seventh in the Vendee Globe, noticed that there was an issue withthe hydraulic ram, operating his yacht's canting keel. As Beyou explains in the audio clip below the arm on the ram has broken where it attaches to the keel head. The French skipper has taken advantage of his proximity to the Cape Verde islands where he intends to take shelter while he attempts to find a solution.

When Beyou warned his crew shortly before midnight, he was making five knots and was 70 miles from the archipelago, where he should arrive by midday today.


You can hear Beyou telling the story (in English)

http://www.thedailysail.com/files/ed..._181112_uk.mp3

Vendee Globe 2012 update 18 Nov am | The Daily Sail

Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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  #3063  
Old 11-18-2012
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Keels - Vendee Globe

I guess that these problems with the keels could be avoided in a great extent and the skippers of these boats share responsibility for not having more safer systems.

I have read recently that most of the NA that design these boats agree that it was better in what regards safety all boats sharing the same keel canting design. That way not only cost would come down as the information received from so many boats with lead to a rapid improvement in the system reliability.

I don't know if it is the sailors looking for an advantage, or the sponsors that lead to a non acceptance of this suggestion but the fact is that they are not taking a great advantage on this: Safran, the one that lost the keel had the most advanced one, made all of titanium and that did not prevent him to be one of the first to lose it.

I guess that in this case the organization (and IMOCA), with the support of boat designers, should take measures to implement that, at least till a greater degree of reliability is achieved in the system design.

....


Regarding the race, has Jean says: It is war time

I haven't slept much last night, I spent a lot of time at the helm with my spinnaker up and I'm sure Mike (editor's note: Golding) did the same. It's war time!!! I've just finished a sails change, I haven't had a minute of break. I've taken my t-shirt off, I'm so sweaty.

Look at them:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The first 6 are really close with Armel still leading but losing distance to François that now is second again. The rhythm is just mad and it is a good thing they are coming to the doldrums were it will be less physical and much more a chess play, one of the big ones. Let's see how they play


....
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  #3064  
Old 11-18-2012
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New boat: Polar 55

Remember this classic beauty:



I said that the builders offer a 7 years warranty on that boat and that is unheard off in what regards sailing boats. Well, the market of small boats is dyng out and what is selling are bigger boats so this guys with an injection of German capital are making a bigger boat, a 55ft

The boat is very modern and I would say more than that, beautiful even if the interior does not make my style. The boat has an high tech construction, is very light (10 000 kg) it had an huge B/D ratio (41%) specially if we consider that it is not a especially narrow boat (4.22m) and that the ballast is on a torpedo at the end of a 2.45m keel.

How boy, this is a stiff,very powerful, fast boat and one that can go to almost any place since that keel can go up and give a draft of only 1,55m. It should be a very seaworthy boat, at least it has an huge stability.













Regarding the interior what I don't like is the style. I have to admit that the interior distribution and the way the keel box was hidden is very well made. Anyway, style is a question of taste and the design has quality. If the boat is as well made as the little one I would not be to worried about that, Jesus, I like this boat and I hope it will be as good as it will look. I hope to see it in Dusseldorf.









The interiors look better here anyway but that open table should look better:

http://www.polar-shipyard.com/pdf/PO...x210_FINAL.pdf




Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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  #3065  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

PCP,

She is very beautiful and I'm sure a pleasure to sail across oceans, even for couple. No question you can get 200 plus miles a day out of her. Can you or anyone tell us why so many modern cruising boats today do no use dorades for ventilation?
Is it a question of form over function? Ventilating a boat be it in the high lats, tropical, even at the dock while the boat is locked up is so important. I noticed also that there are no drip ledges around the salon cabin windows. I don't know a boat that the windows and hatches do not sweat no matter how well the boat is insulated. To me that means lots of dripping all over the seats and nav station. Not putting such an incredible design down but I noticed that the hand holds below and in the companionway appear to be nil. Coming down a companionway I like the feeling in ruff seas of not only having good hand holds but interior walls close so that your upper body can brace against them when moving up or down the latter. Also that table has got to go.

But a great example of where the upper end of cruising boats are going, especially in Europe.

Cheers.
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  #3066  
Old 11-18-2012
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Polar 50

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
PCP,

She is very beautiful and I'm sure a pleasure to sail across oceans, even for couple. No question you can get 200 plus miles a day out of her. Can you or anyone tell us why so many modern cruising boats today do no use dorades for ventilation?
Is it a question of form over function? Ventilating a boat be it in the high lats, tropical, even at the dock while the boat is locked up is so important. I noticed also that there are no drip ledges around the salon cabin windows. I don't know a boat that the windows and hatches do not sweat no matter how well the boat is insulated. To me that means lots of dripping all over the seats and nav station. Not putting such an incredible design down but I noticed that the hand holds below and in the companionway appear to be nil. Coming down a companionway I like the feeling in ruff seas of not only having good hand holds but interior walls close so that your upper body can brace against them when moving up or down the latter. Also that table has got to go.

But a great example of where the upper end of cruising boats are going, especially in Europe.

Cheers.
I guess that I am a bit responsible for you not finding grab holds. I have said that the pictures of the interior were bad and should have posted better pictures. I find the grab holds adequate. The table is also only ugly when open. You can see the grab holds on these photos:





Regarding this boat and yours, being both great boats the optic is completely different. If we were talking about cars we would be talking about a Toyota land cruiser and a Porshe Panamera.

In what concerns drip ledges I don't see them on maxi yachts either. I assume that they consider that on this type of luxury boats the AC will be a constant, so no dripping.

Regarding dorades, these are fast boats and with speed I imagine that a lot of water will pass over the boat and if the dorades were there, into the dorades. I have no doubt the boat is ventilated but not by a non mechanic system like a dorade but by mechanic ones that will probably be more efficient even if at the cost of some energy. This boat has the new Ion lithium mastervolt batteries, a big alternator and they are so confident on the boat energy electric potential that they even propose it with a ceramic electric stove

Mastervolt launches new 12-volt Lithium-Ion battery | Mastervolt

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2012 at 05:39 PM.
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  #3067  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks for the better photos. On a 55 foot boat of this stature I'm sure you can do much for ventilation. I have fallen in love with the nav station chair in the photo.

I'd looked into the lithium-ion batteries and they might be in our first change of batteries down the road. We have too many new systems to deal with all at once on starting up a new boat. But I think in the long run the lithium ion battery is here to stay and already is cheaper than gels when you look at the longevity. But we will give them time and see how they work out for those more daring than us.
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Vendee Globe

Are these guys mad or funny? :Arnaud Boissières time for the morning bath


L'heure de la douche pour Cali / Shower time for... por VendeeGlobeTV
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Polar 55 - Alliage/Azzuro range

The Polar looks very nice with some good ideas; seems very similar in design & concept to the Alliage & Azzuro swing & lifting keel yachts - which are from the board of a well known designer. I think aluminum makes more sense if you're going the shoal draft route. I get nervous taking a glass boat anywhere too shallow where there's anything to potentially graze the gelcoat/antifoul/epoxy barrier coat !

just noticed the 45 foot concept at end of that Polar 55 brochure. Still a bit short on info re the "composite construction" of these yachts.

Re 7 year warranty - we had a 10 year hull warranty on a larger J/Boat (built in the mid 90's in the USA) - don't know if they still do that. Only caution is that these long-dated warranties are really just a marketing tool and can be very difficult to claim on - esp when the yacht is in a different country to the company giving the warranty; and also when the builder is a different legal entity to the marketing company who is party to the sales contract !
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Old 11-19-2012
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Re: Polar 55 - Alliage/Azzuro range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapwraia View Post
The Polar looks very nice with some good ideas; seems very similar in design & concept to the Alliage & Azzuro swing & lifting keel yachts - which are from the board of a well known designer. I think aluminum makes more sense if you're going the shoal draft route. I get nervous taking a glass boat anywhere too shallow where there's anything to potentially graze the gelcoat/antifoul/epoxy barrier coat !

just noticed the 45 foot concept at end of that Polar 55 brochure. Still a bit short on info re the "composite construction" of these yachts.

....
Similar to Azzuro from alliage? Well, Azzuro are great Alumium boats with also a lifting ballasted keel, not a centerboarder like the OVNI or Boreal with all the ballast inside the boat and in that regard they share the same concept and are also beautiful but there are some remarkable differences (besides one being an aluminum one and the other a carbon? one):









This is the Azzure 53, it weights 13 500kg, has a 3000kg bulbed keel with a draft that can go from 3.0m to 1.2m and carries 130m2 of sail.

The Polar 55 weights 10 000kg, has a ballast of 4100kg on a more efficient torpedo keel with a max draft of 2.45m, a minimum of 1.55m and carries 104m2 of sail.

I agree with you when you say that an aluminum boat will be better to stand on the sand, but even if I would not do that with the Azzure except on an emergency, he can do it and the Polar can't. It has a small draft but it cannot go to the beach and even if he could I agree that it is risky to have a heavy cored boat standing on its hull on a beach.

The Polar is also much lighter especially considering that it is a bigger boat and has a bigger ballast even if we have to discount the difference in draft that is not compensated by the more efficient Polar torpedo keel. I guess that all considering that difference in draft is good for less 600 to 1000kg and that will give not such a big difference but a considerable difference in generated RM. Even if we consider a 1000kg saving in weight (that I find too much) the B/D ratio for the two boats will be of 30% (Azzure) and 41% (Polar).

Also in what beam is considered there is a considerable difference with the 53ft boat having 4.82m and the bigger one 4.22m, meaning a different hull design that is related with the difference in B/D.

Looking only at those dimensions I would say that I would prefer clearly the Polar 55 but.... I would say that I would be very cautious in what regards buying a Polar 55. That weight seems too good to be true, or to give an adequate warranty of solidity. For instance the new XP 55 ( a light boat) weight 16500kg with more draft and 6 300kg of ballast. If we consider only the boat without keel, the Polar 55 weights 5900kg and the XP 55 10 200kg. That is an HUGE difference.

This means that the Polar 55 has to be an all carbon boat (they don't say nothing about it) and built like a racing boat and even so that interior does not look like particularly minimalist, not to mention the teak decks.

To put things in perspective, the Open 60 that was raced by Sam on this Vendee Globe (2004) weighs about 9000kg (and it is not the heavier boat racing) and has a 4.5m draft. Ballast is a well kept secret but I would say that they go from 3000 to 3500kg. Even considering the bigger number the weight of the boat without keel will be of 5500kg.

So a carbon 60ft racing boat (without keel) weights 5500kg, without furniture, teak deck, heavy furling systems, and a cruiser boat with all those items with 55ft weights 5900kg? That sounds miraculous to me and I would expect such boat to be built (at least the hull) by one of the very specialized builders that build race boats, not from a firm that used to build a relatively heavy classic small boat.

To make some comparisons with other well know Carbon/epoxy boat that proved reliable, the Shipman 50ft ( a 2001 design) weighted 13 200 kg and the current boat, the 63ft weights 16 500kg.

Shipman 50 boat for sale

Shipman: Shipman 63

Bottom line, it is possible but it would be a technical achievement and I would wait till some boats are in the water and sailing without problems, before buying one, but I am not rich and I think like a poor man Well the same was said about the Shipman 50 comes to the market (it was 2002 European boat of the year). Many if not most doubted about their reliability and the boat proved to be a great boat.

Regarding Alliage, they are making aluminium boats for almost 20 years, have a very solid reputation and I think that the possibilities of having any problem (specially a big one) with an Azzure versus a Polar are strongly on the Polar side.

In fact I was very interested on the Azzuro when it cone to the market back in the mid of the last decade. They started with a 42ft boat:



I remember that they retired quickly this boat from the market and I remember to have talked about that with the owner of the company (or the director) about it: Why? He explained that on that type of boat the price was not proportional to size and that a 42ft boat would be necessarily an expensive boat and difficult to sell on the 42ft market (I do remember that it was an expensive boat, much more than an OVNI). It was after that I have beginning to design my own aluminium dream boat (an aluminum boat with a lifting bulbed keel) to see if having it built directly by a shipyard (on Holland or South Africa) it would be more affordable (I have posted the design somewhere on this thread).

So as you can see I am a big fan of this type of design, I mean and Aluminum boat with a lifting bulbed keel but I can tell you also that it will always be a very expensive boat

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-19-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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