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  #3161  
Old 12-01-2012
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New boat: Dufour 410 Grand Large



















Technical Characteristics:

Dufour 410 Grand Large

LOA: 12,35 m
HL: 11,98 m
LWL: 11,15 m
Beam: 4,20 m
Displ.: 9430 kg
Ball: 2600kg
Draft: 2,10 m
Fuel Tankage: 200 l
Engine: 30 cv
Main: 38 mq
Genoa: 33 mq

.................................................. ...............COMMENTS?

...

Last edited by PCP; 12-01-2012 at 02:05 PM.
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  #3162  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I like much of what Dufour has been doing, but even among the recent crop of plumb stemmed boats I find these boats particularly 'boxy' in profile.. not exactly pretty.. I think the sheer must be more parallel to the DWL than most others....
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  #3163  
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, I was 100% right, how coll is that

Jean-Pierre is leading, making 20.3K and with an advantage of 11.7Nm over Armel that is making 19.7K. That lateral distance has almost disapered and we will have a drag race again.

François also recovered to Armel and it is only at 25.7Nm, about the same distance that separated him from Armel when they went for different strategic options. He is making 19.9K, he is close to the same course as Jean-Pierre and have maintained the same distance to Jean-Pierre.

The two big winners of the last days were Jean-Pierre that won 97Nm to Armel, since they went to different strategic options and Stamm that won 85nm to Armel and it is now at 78Nm from Armel. He is sailing in about the same course has Armel and doing 20.1K.
I guess that we have in Stamm an unsuspected Swiss contender for the victory. He was discussing the first places some weeks back, he had big problems, went to the top of his mast with the boat sailing at speed (quite incredibly that), repaired his light geenaker, recovered brilliantly and his back again on the head of the race (4th now). Great sailing, great sailor

...
Yup, right back together again. In 48 hours a new low will form right below Cape Hope. Not a big low but 30 knots of wind. I think the lead boats will make it to the ESE side of the forming low in time and have wind on the port beam then tailing off to a broad reach. But the boats further behind may have it on the nose for a day or so as they approach the bottom side of the low, and thats maybe the boats only 200 miles behind. If I understand the ice boundry rule right the boats must stay above the ice line and that will keep the bit slower boats in around the low 40's as they east around Hope and that puts them in a place with easterly winds. Does anyone know how far down the east African current goes south? If it goes down into the 40's that could help make things get really messy with lots of different wave trains once the boats get into the lower west Indian ocean just as they pass S. Africa.

Fun stuff, I'm starting to get used to how fast these boats go now. By the way the poor get poorer as the group of boats that are way behind will have poor winds in the coming days and falling even further behind.

Cheers

Last edited by hannah2; 12-01-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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  #3164  
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Pictures, great pictures.

Come on guys, more comments on the Dufour 410 and while we wait some fantastic poctures:

Right of way: Get out of the way!!!!



Childen's playground on a 40class racer that is circumnavigating....with the family

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  #3165  
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Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Yup, right back together again. In 48 hours a new low will form right below Cape Hope. Not a big low but 30 knots of wind. I think the lead boats will make it to the ESE side of the forming low in time and have wind on the port beam then tailing off to a broad reach. But the boats further behind may have it on the nose for a day or so as they approach the bottom side of the low, and thats maybe the boats only 200 miles behind. If I understand the ice boundry rule right the boats must stay above the ice line and that will keep the bit slower boats in around the low 40's as they east around Hope and that puts them in a place with easterly winds. Does anyone know how far down the east African current goes south? If it goes down into the 40's that could help make things get really messy with lots of different wave trains once the boats get into the lower west Indian ocean just as they pass S. Africa.

Fun stuff, I'm starting to get used to how fast these boats go now. By the way the poor get poorer as the group of boats that are way behind will have poor winds in the coming days and falling even further behind.

Cheers
Jesus I have enough trouble just following and trying to understand the options of the lead pack. I have no time to look at the problems of the guys behind so I don't know if I agree or not

What I know is that the Drag race will finish, or has already finished and we will have a tactical play again to pass that gate that is surrounded by variable and weak winds.

I guess that some will try to approach it by the North, others by South of it. It seems that both ways have vantages and disadvantages. The only thing I know is that both ways are tricky.

By the way, they don't have to be North or South of the gate, they have just to pass it. If they will enter it by North, they just have to pass it again on the South to North direction.

And the race continues as hot as if it is was a sprint race: those guys just don't like to be 2th, or 3th Armel has managed to recover the lead. He has an advantage of 6.9Nm over Jean-Pierre while François is closing on both and it is now only at 14nm from the lead. They are making respectively 16.1K, 19.3K and 20.2K so that Armel lead is not probably going to last.

Meanwhile Stamm maintains his position and lost very little to the leaser (1.5Nm) but as won distance regarding Jean-Pierre. He is making 16.1K.

Great racing!!!!! I am tired just to look at what these guys are doing This is a crazy rhythm. Can they maintain it?

The rhythm is so hard that François only managed to keep his new 24hour world record for solo sailing....for a 24 hours

Yesterday, between 4am GMT Friday 30th November to 4am GMT Saturday 1st December Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) travelled from point to point, 498.80 miles in twenty-four hours, averaging speeds of 20.8 knots. This breaks the record held previously by Alex Thomson in 2003 and, also the record set the day before, subject to ratification, by François Gabart (MACIF), of 482.91 miles in 24hrs. Confirmation of the record is subject to validation by the WSSRC (World Speed Sailing Record Council).

They are almost on top of the 500Nm record and I guess that one of these guys is going to get it on this race.

On the day video at the end just don't lose the images of Tanguy on top of the mast. That is really a big mast


Day 22 highlights - Saturday, December 1, 2012 por VendeeGlobeTV

Cheers

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-01-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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  #3166  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Like in the D36P, I like everything I SEE in the new D410, but it needs to shed weight. Thanks for posting!. I thought they would come out with a Performance 40' first. Looked at their website, and it seems they are also launching a new 380GL and a 450 GL.

Last edited by HMoll; 12-01-2012 at 08:28 PM.
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  #3167  
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Dufour 410 Grand Large

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post


















Technical Characteristics:

Dufour 410 Grand Large

LOA: 12,35 m
HL: 11,98 m
LWL: 11,15 m
Beam: 4,20 m
Displ.: 9430 kg
Ball: 2600kg
Draft: 2,10 m
Fuel Tankage: 200 l
Engine: 30 cv
Main: 38 mq
Genoa: 33 mq

.................................................. ...............COMMENTS?

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
I like much of what Dufour has been doing, but even among the recent crop of plumb stemmed boats I find these boats particularly 'boxy' in profile.. not exactly pretty.. I think the sheer must be more parallel to the DWL than most others....
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Like in the D36P, I like everything I SEE in the new D410, but it needs to shed weight. Thanks for posting!.
I like the overall design (graphically speaking) even if I prefer boats less beamier. But I understand the concept in what regards to having a more stable platform and a boat that heels less for the average cruiser that wants his boat mostly to sail downwind and will not sail with a head on wind. After all the vast majority of cruisers motor on those conditions, so yes, this boat makes sense. The boat was bettered in that respect in what regards the previous model, the 405. This one is considerably more beamy (4.20 to 3.98m) and has all beam brought back.

This is, as the last Dufour a Felci design so I have no doubt that it is an efficient and well designed boat for what it is intended to do but I fail to understand why the previous boat weighted 8 990kg and this one 9 430kg. Weight certainly is not an advantage and serves no purpose. Maybe the bigger volume of this boat? Anyway I don't like that extra weight.

Like on the previous model I don't like the B/D ratio of this boat, that is on the low side: 27.5%. I know that it is a bit better than the one of the 405 and this boat has more draft (2.10 for 2.03). This two factors and a substantially bigger beam will give it a bigger RM compared with the previous model, but than it is needed because the boat will have more wave drag and more wet area (more heavier).

I did not saw the keel design but I don't believe that it will be less modern than on the previous model and then we are talking about a torpedo keel with all the ballast down. That will give to this boat a sufficient AVS, but I like boats with a bigger part of its stability coming from the ballast. This boat will sail well, I am sure, in almost all conditions, except close against the wind in a blow were the power needed to overcome the waves and the added wave drag will not be probably enough for a good speed. The boat will heel and the ballast will not be able to give him that extra pull to cope well with those conditions.

Other mass productions boats will do better on those conditions.

Regarding the sail area I don't understand also why the previous boat that was 560kg lighter and had less have drag had more sail upwind (81.90m2 to 71.0m2). That is a big difference and hardly understandable since this boat has more RM and can therefore carry more sail.

A jeanneau 409, that has a better B/D ratio (30%), less beam (3.99m) and weights 1980kg less has more 7m2 of sail and I am not talking about the performance version but about the standard one.

I guess the infusion process is responsible for that big weight difference, but I really don't see how the Dufour 410 can compete with the jeanneau 409, that seems just a better sailing boat. I have also looked recently to other boats on this class and remember that the Hanse 415 has a performance almost as good as the one from the Jeanneau.

The Hanse 415 is, in what regards the hull more similar to the Dufour, both boats have a similar beam and the Hanse is even heavier, weighting more 530kg but it has a much better B/D ratio (32.5%), having a bigger RM and carries more 16m2 of sail and that is a lot.

So I guess I don't like very much the Dufour in what likes its general sailing picture.

Regarding the interior it is a bit risky to talk only about designs but I would say that it seems nice, following the general tendency of a polivalent chart table but I don't like the galley. I mean, it seems big enough but will not offer any support for the back, so I guess that on that one if on the sea you will have to tack the boat to the right side, or maybe the boat heels so little than that it would not be necessary, especially because the boat really only heels hard when pressed against the wind and again, the ones that are going to do buy this boat will not do that (or they have chosen the wrong boat) and therefore all is well

Regards

Paulo
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  #3168  
Old 12-02-2012
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Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This boat will sail well, I am sure, in almost all conditions, except close against the wind in a blow were the power needed to overcome the waves and the added wave drag will not be probably enough for a good speed. The boat will heel and the ballast will not be able to give him that extra pull to cope well with those conditions.
Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). At a reasonable angle of heel in lively seas that's a long way (to fall) between the 2 wheels with not a lot to hang onto apart from the wheel. Undersized genoa winches didn't help either. The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind

The 405 (and presumably the 410) certainly do what they're primarily designed for - easy family coastal cruising and as a living platform at anchor in a beautiful cove it does it quite well. A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind

Some particular points about these latest Dufours (our 405 was delivered new in early 2012) - this charter operator almost exclusively uses them (mainly 375's and smaller) - the shore crew are a useful source of feedback after a few beers ! hull moulding, gel coat, non-skid etc very good and our boat still looked brand new in that respect.

Down below was a different matter - notwithstanding the additional wear & tear a charter yacht gets, the finishes already looked 3 years old with veneers worn thru, chipping & peeling in all the vulnerable places. Locker catches breaking regularly etc. Halogen lighting was quite sophisticated and useful but electrical charging systems were a problem on our boat and others too, with limited Dufour support for a solution.

Volume in the main saloon is BIG - and not a place to be upwind in rough weather !

One other fitting which had been removed is the standard transom platform recessed swim ladder which are quite flimsy and apparently only last a matter of months; so are replaced by a more substantial ladder bolted to the stbd side of the transom - not a great look but works well.

Of course this is all in context that these boats don't cost much money in the relative scheme of things - apparently our 405 had been bought new with all gear by the charter company for EUR150k. It seems Dufour were also doing great deals on 2 cabin 375's as they'd mis-calculated demand for that configuration and keen to clear the stock.

If one accepts that these yachts are primarily designed with warm weather charter in mind, then maybe they're a good blend of requirements for the price.

One other observation about cruising boats where the max beam dimension is at the stern : for med style stern-to berthing, esp when you're going for a space which is only just wide enough (and some cross wind) it's not ideal to be leading with your max beam (esp two square corners which can't easily be fendered). Much easier to slip into one of these slots with max beam further forward !
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  #3169  
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Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapwraia View Post
Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). At a reasonable angle of heel in lively seas that's a long way (to fall) between the 2 wheels with not a lot to hang onto apart from the wheel. Undersized genoa winches didn't help either. The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind

The 405 (and presumably the 410) certainly do what they're primarily designed for - easy family coastal cruising and as a living platform at anchor in a beautiful cove it does it quite well. A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind

Some particular points about these latest Dufours (our 405 was delivered new in early 2012) - this charter operator almost exclusively uses them (mainly 375's and smaller) - the shore crew are a useful source of feedback after a few beers ! hull moulding, gel coat, non-skid etc very good and our boat still looked brand new in that respect.

Down below was a different matter - notwithstanding the additional wear & tear a charter yacht gets, the finishes already looked 3 years old with veneers worn thru, chipping & peeling in all the vulnerable places. Locker catches breaking regularly etc. Halogen lighting was quite sophisticated and useful but electrical charging systems were a problem on our boat and others too, with limited Dufour support for a solution.

Volume in the main saloon is BIG - and not a place to be upwind in rough weather !

One other fitting which had been removed is the standard transom platform recessed swim ladder which are quite flimsy and apparently only last a matter of months; so are replaced by a more substantial ladder bolted to the stbd side of the transom - not a great look but works well.

Of course this is all in context that these boats don't cost much money in the relative scheme of things - apparently our 405 had been bought new with all gear by the charter company for EUR150k. It seems Dufour were also doing great deals on 2 cabin 375's as they'd mis-calculated demand for that configuration and keen to clear the stock.

If one accepts that these yachts are primarily designed with warm weather charter in mind, then maybe they're a good blend of requirements for the price.

One other observation about cruising boats where the max beam dimension is at the stern : for med style stern-to berthing, esp when you're going for a space which is only just wide enough (and some cross wind) it's not ideal to be leading with your max beam (esp two square corners which can't easily be fendered). Much easier to slip into one of these slots with max beam further forward !
Boats are designed for a certain purpose and one designed specifically for blue-water in rough seas would be a very disagreeable one to to live and sail in the conditions we sail most of the time.

I find your opinion about the boat to harsh. Certainly I agree in what you say regarding going upwind with some substantial wind and waves, but out of those conditions and in the conditions the owners of those boats use them (that are also the conditions we use our boats also most of the time), the boat would out perform most of the boats that are very good in harsh conditions, boats designed specifically for those conditions.

Regarding charter, well, that is just a terrible thing to do to a boat. But yes, I have been also sailing on a Dufour 425 with some months and the boat just looked vandalized and probably was. I agree with you that Dufours have nice interiors but not very resistant to an harsh and not careful use but in that regard to that are not worse than most mass production boats. At least they look nice when they are new

Faster, I think that Dufour interior has improved a lot in what regards design quality but in what regards type of boat I still prefer the old 40 performance to any 40 of their line, the 410 or the 40e, so if I can say that I like their improvement in design quality I cannot say the same in what regards type of boat, particularly in what regards B/D ratio.

Off course the old hull and keel could be improved by the new developments in design and some of that difference in B/D ratio is lessened by a more efficient keel/ballast, but not all.

The older D40 performance had 3.90m of beam, weighted 7800kg and had a B/D of 36%. The new 40e has about the same beam, weights 7950kg and has a 30% of B/D ratio.

The boat is better designed in what regards hull design (transom), keel and the overall performance will be slightly better around the cans but in what regards the conditions that have been described (upwind with waves) and as a bluewater boat with good coastal abilities, the old design was just better. It had more rocker, a much bigger B/D ratio and in what regards cruising the differences in speed would be really small.

For the guys that are looking for a 5 to 8 years old 40ft cruiser at a very good price the "old" Dufour 40 performance is one of the best options, at least in my opinion.









Regata Chocolat Factory. Maresme 2010 from Vicente Arregui on Vimeo.



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-02-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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  #3170  
Old 12-02-2012
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Vendee Globe.

I don't remember of any year where the competition was so tight. This is racing at the most higher level, those guys are given 100% and I have some difficulty in understanding how the 4 first can maintain that rhythm.

Yesterday Armel was leading, then, at the middle of the night, Jean-Pierre took the lead and now is François that is leading again after having been 3th for a week or so. Incredible racing

The three first are separated by 16Nm and the 4th is only at 69Nm from the 3th.

Drag race again for the three fist that are sailing at almost 20k and sommer will be sailing faster then that. Some strong winds ahead

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The story of the day, Le Cam dived to free is boat from a net:

Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel) realised last night that he was slowing down and that all was not well with his Bruce Farr designed Open 60. After a thorough examination of his boat, and asking himself many questions about the set up, he realised that his problem was below the waterline. The following morning, he checked under his hull and realised a fishing net was stuck around his lower part of his keel.

After three failed attempts to get rid of the net by moving his boat, the SynerCiel skipper eventually decided that he was left with no choice but to dive under it, which took around thirty minutes at 10am GMT this morning. He stopped the boat, put on his scuba diving equipment and took his knife with him. Everything went well and SynerCiel is now back in the race.

At midday, Jean Le Cam called his team and explained: “After trying everything I could to get rid of that net, I had no choice, I had to dive. I geared up, stopped the boat, and went for it. At first I tried to cut it all at once but it just wasn’t working. I said to myself ‘s**t, that’s not good’. So I cut one part after the other and it worked out. It was a huge net!”

Despite being born to sail Jean Le Cam, nicknamed ‘Le Roi Jean’, or King Jean, does not like swimming at all, so it was very grumpy King that was forced to make like a rebellious fish, and cut himself free of the net today.

The incident has cost him a few miles and a place in the rankings to Mike Golding but he is now back in action and returns to his the warpath.



Day 23 highlights - Sunday, December 2, 2012 por VendeeGlobeTV
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