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  #3281  
Old 12-23-2012
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Boreal 44/OVNI 445/Allures 45

Thank you very much by your very interesting posts.

Two recommendations if you allow me:

Don't put a radar on the mast or use furling main. The boat as an adequate stability and AVS but one that should not be diminished anyway.

Mount a top of the rage electric/electronic autopilot. You can use the wind-vane with good weather to save energy but its performance in bad weather is very far away from the one of a good modern autopilot. Regarding that you can see in the videos I have been posted about the Vendee Globe how much abuse they can sustain. You will be very happy to have a modern autopilot as soon as the first storm you get. Modern boats have a better performance in bad weather if they keep sailing and with a top of the range auto pilot, if the sails are well regulated, you can leave the autopilot doing the work and go to sleep.

Regarding the Boreal 44 I like everything you say and is in mine opinion a better boat than the OVNI 445 (that is a great boat) and a boat comparable in performances with the Allures 45, maybe even a bit faster. It should be but I don't know, the Allures is a bit more powerful and I don't know if the design of the hull is not a bit better..

The only reserve I have on the boat and something that makes me a bit of confusion is how someone that is not a NA neither an NE chooses to design its own boat instead of working his good ideas with a good NA? That is what happened with Allures, that has a very similar story in what regards its beginnings:

The story begun some years ago with the Allures 44 and two friends, both engineers, that were not satisfied with the market offer regarding the boat they wanted for long voyaging. They talked with a lot of professional sailors, with people that had circumnavigated, joined that information with their own ideas and went to Berret-Racopeau to discuss the boat, that was later designed by that great naval firm. There was so many people liking their boat that they started a business that today is a big success.

With the Boreal 44, the owner made a boat, circumnavigate and according with the knowledge he reunited, designed and made a new boat, a better one, the Boreal 44. Then the same thing happened, lots of people liking the boat, and the guy turned in a successful boat builder.

I find difficult that a boat designed by an amateur would perform as well as a boat designed by qualified professionals with many years of practice but the truth is that the boat was tested by many and all find it an excellent sailing boat, being even elected as Voile magazine boat of the year by many testers.

Comparing the basic dimensions of the boats, the Boreal 44 has a LWL of 11.63 m, the OVNI 445 - 12.70m, the Allures 45 - 12.35.

Beam: Boreal-4.30m, the OVNI - 4.29m, Allures - 4.43m

Displacement: Boreal - 10 290kg, OVNI - 10 600kg, Allures - 11 800kg

B/D ratio: Boreal - 37%, OVNI - 32%, Allures - 37%

As we can see in what regards beam there is not many differences, being the Allures the one with the bigger beam but in what regards B/D there is a big difference between the Boreal/Allures and the OVNI.

In what regards stability and power the Allures has a bit more since it has less weight on the deck (that is made of cored composite to be lighter) and has a bit more form stability, but the difference to the OVNI, in what regards that is really considerable and I am sure that reflects not only in power but also on a better AVS on the other two boats.

I am going away to have Christmas with all the Family, so I will not be around on the next days. I wish to You, to all that follow this thread a merry Christmas, specially to the ones that have contributed and they are already many

Regards

Paulo
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  #3282  
Old 12-23-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Yes, we hope that you, your family and everyone reading your great thread has a very happy holiday. You should make a book out of this thread as there is so much information on it. I wonder if forum members understand how much good info is here on interesting sailboats.

You are right about the top of the line auto pilot. We will go with the best as far as we know. NKE auto pilot with their hydralic ram. Most Americans do not know about NKE products unless they are serious racers offshore. I am looking forward to playing with the system when we get to sea trials. I am also looking forward to the Wind Pilot wind vane. Peter the owner of Wind Pilot and the Jean-francios's did a lot of work figuring out how one would mount with the swim platform on the Boreal. We will have radar on pole at stern like always.

I am amazed how JFD designed such a boat and not being a NA. But he has done so, and did you know his son was a very good NA for the French Navy. There have been many great and you can say famous sailors who have had the chance to sail the Boreal and swear it is the best boat of this kind they have ever sailed. There are great stories on Attainable Adventure Cruising on the Boreal and the experts there are very impressed. Also maybe soon a very famous sailor, a true hero in his/her country may be ordering a Boreal 44. I will not mention name for privacy.

I want everyone to know that as great as this boat is there are compromises just like on any cruising boat. But one nice thing is the entire team at Boreal is interested on making things better and some times less French as they now have customers from all over the world.

I have mentioned to Boreal why they do not have a better website. They reply that they would rather spend the time building boats and that they are doing very well in orders as is. Remember they only at this time build 6 or so boats a year. I would post pictures of our boat being built but out of respect for Boreal I will wait till we have have our own cruising blog which I will have a section on everything dealing with how the boat behaves and how she is built.

Again

Happy Holiday
PCP and axel like this.

Last edited by hannah2; 12-23-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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  #3283  
Old 12-23-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Has the Life 10.0 been mentioned in this thread?

life-yachts se/LIFE_yachts/LIFE_10.0. html

According to yacht. de [ yacht de/yachten_jollen/neue_boote/scharfe-schwedin-von-der-westkueste/a76569. html ] it will cost less than 100k and have more upwind and more downwind sail-area than the larger Pogo 10.50

I think this will be a very interesting boat

[Sorry, for the scrambled links, I haven't got enough posts, do be allowed to post urls ]
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  #3284  
Old 12-23-2012
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Re: Boreal 44

I am amazed how JFD designed such a boat and not being a NA. But he has done so...


I wanted to wish everyone a happy holidays as well,and wanted to congratulate Hannah2 on his taste in boats. I had the pleasure once of sailing on a Boreal 50 and I was incredibly impressed. And while the Boreal and the Allures are similar concepts in certain respects, they are also I think quite different. If I understand correctly the Boreal is more of what we in France call a dériveur lesté (a keel/centerboarder maybe in English), while the allures is more of a dériveur intégral (a centerboarder with internal ballast only). This means that a dériveur lesté has a shallow keel which houses the centerboard thus allowing it to be lower, as well as providing a lower placement of the lead ballast. The argument also goes that this shallow keel improves tracking. As far as I know the allures carries its ballast in its bilges and its centerboard is only heavy enough to insure it doesn't float given it is a NACA foil section and thus has volume. Because of all of this I would be very surprised if the allures had a lower center of gravity, even considering it has a fiberglass deck. In any event, this is how I understood the differences between the two boats. Once again happy holidays.

Best,

Frédéric
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  #3285  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Boreal 44

Quote:
Originally Posted by monsieur bis View Post
I am amazed how JFD designed such a boat and not being a NA. But he has done so...


.. And while the Boreal and the Allures are similar concepts in certain respects, they are also I think quite different. If I understand correctly the Boreal is more of what we in France call a dériveur lesté (a keel/centerboarder maybe in English), while the allures is more of a dériveur intégral (a centerboarder with internal ballast only). This means that a dériveur lesté has a shallow keel which houses the centerboard thus allowing it to be lower, as well as providing a lower placement of the lead ballast. The argument also goes that this shallow keel improves tracking. As far as I know the allures carries its ballast in its bilges and its centerboard is only heavy enough to insure it doesn't float given it is a NACA foil section and thus has volume. Because of all of this I would be very surprised if the allures had a lower center of gravity, even considering it has a fiberglass deck. In any event, this is how I understood the differences between the two boats.

Frédéric
It seems to me both concepts are similar:





On boreal site they say:

The ballast is housed in the keel box. Compared to a centreboarder, this again lowers the CG by several dozen cms. Unlike normal practice, we don’t pile up lead blocks as ballast. At Boreal we construct moulds of every ballast compartment and we make massive lead blocks to fit each of them, resulting in a gain of 20 % in density.

All this efforts contribute to an impressive stability curve.


and give the idea that the box is outside the hull and that is not the case.

For what I understand both boats are centerboards with all ballast inside since they have no ballasted keels and no box outside the hull, as some centerboarders have.

Regarding the keel, both boats can have profiled nacra centerboards beeing the one from the Allures slightly deeper and the boats have also two rudders so I cannot see how that improves the tracking.

I have the stability curve from the Allures 45. If Hannah2 can provide us with the one from Boreal 44 we can compare them but I don't expect it to be much different.

A good Christmas to you.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-24-2012 at 10:03 AM.
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  #3286  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

More! More! Lol Merry Christmas to all! Love learning about how seasoned cruisers have outfitted their boats. When i get to my laptop, i'd be happy to share the short list of centerboard cruisers. Perhaps others will know of more.
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  #3287  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Sorry I never bothered to ask about the stability curve I'm not an NA. For me understanding how the boat sails in seas where stability math comes into play was what was important.

The Boreal does have a keel lower than the hull, within that keel is the lead. The centerboard I believe weighs about 284 Kilo water neutral. Also remember that the Boreal has 100 meters of anchor chain centered just forward of the mast giving the boat more center of balance.
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  #3288  
Old 12-24-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Sorry I never bothered to ask about the stability curve I'm not an NA. For me understanding how the boat sails in seas where stability math comes into play was what was important.

The Boreal does have a keel lower than the hull, within that keel is the lead. The centerboard I believe weighs about 284 Kilo water neutral. Also remember that the Boreal has 100 meters of anchor chain centered just forward of the mast giving the boat more center of balance.
You don't need to be a NA to know how to read a stability curve and to see its good and bad points. Just need to have the knowledge for that and it is a lot less than the one needed to be a NA.

If you look at the photo of the Boreal and Drawing of the Allures 45 you can see that they are very similar and have not any significant space for ballast outside the hull. About 300Kg is also what weights Allures 45 centerboard, that like the one of the Boreal is made of solid aluminum. No lead ballast there.

Besides the type of boats like the Allures and the Boreal, there are boats that have all the the ballast inside a box outside the hull, some that have part of the weight inside and part outside in the keel (like the Southerlies), others that have all the ballast on a keel that can be swigged up, like the Pogo or the Opium and even others that have a bulbed keel that can be pulled vertically up.

I guess this covers all the types of variable draft boats that I know.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-24-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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  #3289  
Old 12-25-2012
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Allures 44

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  #3290  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Wow! Allures 44 in the long long night.

Good Boats Don't Kill Sailors, Sailors kill Sailors!

That is one tough boat and one tough sailor.

More reasons we picked the Boreal over the Allures as both are strong tough boats but we felt the Boreal was a little more what we call industrial and we could work with the designer to customize.

If you look at the cleats on deck between the two boats there is a major difference. The Allures are more standard design that you see on most sailboats. They are also through bolted because of fiberglass deck. On the Boreal the cleats are welded not only to the aluminum deck but have struts under neath and those are welded to deck and hull on the inside. They are also big enough to take a two inch line. That is something we see in far off places when you have to tie with a commercial fishing vessel or a stone pier. We had Boreal design a Sampson post for our bow, again it will come in handy in out of the way places. I wish boats would still put Sampson Posts on boats that are going off shore.

We are also having a one inch high aluminum rib around the front and sides of all are deck hatches for protection. Again an old idea that is important to extreme conditions and use, just not seen anymore. We will also go with Goiot Hatches much stronger and safer than Lewmar hatches. No plastic locks or handles.

Please ask questions if you have any. If I can answer your questions I will.

I know, I know! I'm obsessed with our new boat but how can I not be we are getting so close to June sea trials and putting everything in order to go cruising again.

Well it is Christmas day and it is snowing like crazy here in Oregon. Cooking our pet turkey whose name was Beatrice. Have fresh oysters and making oyster stuffing, better yet I got a good single malt in hand.

Hope you all are having or had a great holiday.
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