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  #3321  
Old 12-30-2012
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Re: New Allures 39.9

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
and continuing talking about voyage boats, Allures announced in the Paris boat show the Allures 39.9 that is going to replace the 40 that was a very successful boat and I bet this one is even more. The design is a knock out

Absolutely beautiful, considering that is much more difficult to design a good looking 40ft boat than a 45, this boat is even more beautiful than the 45.

This is a Berret/Racopeau design and it is not only the boat that looks gorgeous the hull design seems great too as well as the interior. It seems that I am too enthusiastic about this boat, but what can I say, I love the design

The dimensions seem also correct to me. This is a beamy boat to take advantage of hull stability (4.15m) it will go probably well upwind with a centerboard with a draft of 2.75m. That's huge for a 40ft. The boat will have also a good AVS and a good overall stability, since they made the deck in composite to put the weight down and have a good B/D ratio (39%).

The boat is a bit on the heavy side (10 900kg) but on small centerboarders with all the ballast inside a very light boat don't seem a good idea to me so even the weight seems right to me. Even so the boat weights less than the also new Halberg Rassy 412.

Regards

Paulo
I'll have to agree, nice improvements over the 40, especially getting rid of that linear galley, and going back to a seagoing galley and usable seaberths. By the numbers, she should also be a well behaved but spirited performer. I wonder if the boat will be ready for Duesseldorf?
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Re: Atlantic 43

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Ok, here you have my favorite. I was interested in the boat some years ago but the price was out of budget. The Atlantic 43 costs more than Half a million of Euros. The price has to do with the boat being a lot more complicated than a center-boarder with all the weight inside the boat. It is also a Dutch boat and Dutch makes very good boats (and have a big tradition in aluminum boats) but also very expensive boats.

Of course I like it strong but also like it fast and in what regards stability this boat is a monster

The boat, in the version of bulled lifting keel has a B/D ratio superior to the ones of the Boreal or Allures (40% to 37%) and that is with the keel up. But contrary to the other two boats that have the ballast inside, the Atlantic has the ballast on the keel, most of it in a bulb so when the bulb is down at 2.95m it will provide a RM massively superior to the ones of Boreal or Allures as well as an even better AVS.

That means a very seaworthy boat and a very powerful one, able to maintain a lot of sail up with bad weather, and off course, a very fast one.

The boat has a weight close to the one of the Boreal and is lighter than the Allures. It has the same beam has a Boreal 44 and also two rudders on its transom.

On the shipyard they say about the boat:

Atlantic 43: Aluminium cruiser with flexible draft between 1,30 till 2,95 m in combination with double rudders. Aluminium sailing yachts .. for the absolute heaviest conditions during your worlds travel. Our yachts are real "All-Weather-Go-Any-Where" cruisers. The Atlantic 43 is designed by our yard together with naval architect Dick Zaal. They are unique in its kind and notable for robust, flowing lines, lifting keel and twin balance rudders. This combination ensures excellent sailing performance, to be compared with fixed keel boats, only with the advantage that the draft of the boat (lifting keel) can be changed. The combination of lifting keel and twin balance rudders makes it also possible to beach the boat, enter shallow waters, to arrive later in tidal harbors or to leave earlier.

Well considered design plus painstaking selected rigging makes the Atlantic 43 sailor-friendly. An ergonomically designed deck lay-out allowing for all sail handling to be carried out singlehanded. The Atlantic 43 is imbued with comfort, exactly for those moments when required the most: at sea. Real comfort is not defined by built-in contrivances, it is more a question of ergonomics: sitting, working and resting while underway should be comfortable. The custom built interior reflects the discerning taste of the owner and will be tailored to your requirements. Each Atlantic is a sturdy, safe floating home and a reliable investment for the owner. The craftmanship required to achieve the build quality is readily apparent and adds to the pleasure of sailing.


Ok, to be fair boats like the Allures or the Boreal, not comparable in righting moment, power or speed have two big advantages: Price, simplicity and easy maintenance.

If I had the money I would exchange all that disadvantages by the superior stability and speed of the Atlantic 43 but all that being following this thread knows that I like very fast boats and boats that provide a lot of fun to sail.

For me the Atlantic 43 would fit more my style but I am not saying by any means that it is a better boat than the Boreal or Allures or that it would fit better other style of sailors. I am saying that this is also a great boat and one that can join the other two at the top of the ranking of voyage boats that can go anywhere.
More than a year ago I had already posted about this boat, here it is what I have said than:
The Atlantic 43 is definetly a purpose built cruiser. I find it interresting, that it is available in two keel configurations. Lifting keel with torpedo bulb and swingkeel, with differrent saloon layouts.
It is apparent the lifting keel would be more performance oriented, but how about the possibility of damage from running aground. It seems the swingkeel would be more forgiving in that regard. Any thoughts??
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  #3323  
Old 12-30-2012
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Re: Atlantic 43

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Originally Posted by bjung View Post
The Atlantic 43 is definetly a purpose built cruiser. I find it interresting, that it is available in two keel configurations. Lifting keel with torpedo bulb and swingkeel, with differrent saloon layouts.
It is apparent the lifting keel would be more performance oriented, but how about the possibility of damage from running aground. It seems the swingkeel would be more forgiving in that regard. Any thoughts??
Bjung, that is obvious

You have to chose if you want the extra performance and stability or the bigger flexibility of a swing keel in what regards recoil if it hits the bottom.

Anyway on a voyage boat with a big draft on a lifting keel like the Atlantic 43 you can cross the Ocean with the big draft on and when approaching the coast looking for an anchorage you can pull it up. Maybe you have to reef for safety but given the big hull form stability and the huge ballast you can still sail with the bulb up on that boat.

A bigger disadvantage is that a lifting keel on a relatively small boat is not only more expensive as has more implications and limitations on the interior design of the boat. That's why almost all small boats that have ballasted keels with variable draft use swing keels. Normally only boats with 50ft and over use lifting keels. The Atlantic 43 with a lifting keel is a really expensive boat, much more than a Allures 45 for instance and probably more than a Pogo 50 or a Southerly 42.

Regards

Paulo
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sailboats at Dusseldorf boat show

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Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I'll have to agree, nice improvements over the 40, especially getting rid of that linear galley, and going back to a seagoing galley and usable seaberths. By the numbers, she should also be a well behaved but spirited performer. I wonder if the boat will be ready for Duesseldorf?
I don't think so. It would be a scandal if a French builder chose Dusseldorf for a premiere instead of the Paris boat show

Here you can find the expositors and some of the boats. Some expositors have a big space but don't say what are the boats that they bring.

This is only for cabin cruisers, the dinghy and race boats are elsewhere:

boot 2013 - Sailing Yachts/Cabin Boats (Sail)


As Premieres at the Boat show they announce:


Bavaria Cruiser 56 - world premiere at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair


Gunfleet 58 - cruising yacht world premiere at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair


Halberg Rassy 55
http://www.boat-duesseldorf.com/cipp...t/local_lang,2


Italia 13.98 - a new level of luxury yachts - German debut at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair


Winner 9.00 - a cruising or racing yacht for ambitious sailors - World debut at boot 2013 -- boot Trade Fair

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-30-2012 at 04:02 PM.
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Fox 10.20 Capado

Another nice movie from Adrien and Capucine



QUI SOMMES NOUS? - CAPADO creative boat

CAPADO creative boat

Le Voyage de Capado
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  #3326  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

First of all: happy new year!
We wish you all fair winds, lots of sunshine and a good health to enjoy it.

Secondly, I owe you a big apology for taking so long before giving you an update on our experiences with the Pogo 12.50. Of course since we have the boat we spend a lot if time sailing, with less left even for the internet. But this is certainly not a good excuse for not following this excellent thread closely. The main reason is a professional career shift to France and although they do build fast boats, their administration makes me think of that heavy trawler with a few square meters of sail: it just doesn’t work. So that’s what really kept me up .

After almost 3.000 NM, the boat lived up to our expectations.
We wanted it to be safe, fast in most circumstances, easy to handle, simple to maintain and sufficiently comfortable for longer cruises.

Safety
Nothing wrong in that perspective, at least with a good sense of anticipation.

For example if strong winds are expected, the staysail should be rigged ready to hoist before leaving port. The solent is not meant to be roll-reefed, so after the second reef in the main the next step in reducing sail is rolling in the solent completely and setting the staysail, which is a hell of a job on a dancing foredeck.

Although both form and weight stability are quite enormous and the boat is designed to be sailed “under the mast”, it gets quite heeled from time to time and then the aftermost, open area behind the mainsail track is unsafe. But the sheltered cockpit itself works very well in all circumstances and with easy circulation as a bonus.

What I like most about the 12.50 is the excellent behavior under sail. It is indeed a cruiser and behaves just like that. When overpowered, you will slowly loose rudder control, giving you plenty of time to react and get the boat back in the rails. We never had a real round-up and the single broach we suffered was when we kept the spinnaker up while the wind was increasing to 25 knots. Also quite easy to recover from, although it was a hard job to get the 155 m2 back into the snuffer. Now we keep a much closer look at the true wind speed .

The stiffness of the sandwich construction is impressive. This is essential because with back swept spreaders but no backstay, the very rigid carbon mast is only kept upright and correctly bent by highly tensioned caps and shrouds. Nothing in this rig ever gives the slightest way and the only method to bend the mast a little more is to put full tension on the inner forestay, which is not countered by backstays.

Also not giving the slightest kick, is the swinging keel. At first it sometimes refused to lower without manual (hydraulic) encouragement, according to Structures (and also the review of Voiles & Voiliers) the very first problem with this concept. They promptly sent an engineer to Belgium to replace the whole system, illustrating the after sales service Structures provides even without dealers.
No fault was found in the original equipment and six months later I realize this was very probably due to the keel case. This keeps the head of the keel fixed but deeper scratches on this at the first haul out indicate that it was probably only a very thigh fit between keel and case that just needed to wear out. Which it did, with no more problems.

An unsinkable boat means that a lot of space below the berths is filled with foam, but I find it reassuring to know never having to leave the boat unless it’s on fire. And I hate removing all those cushions to be able to get to the ship’s stores anyway.
Excellent antislip everywhere you may need it plus well dimensioned, thought out and top quality gear, including remote controlled stoppers on the foredeck for the bowsprit and inner forestay. I keep telling myself all this cannot be cheap .

Once set up correctly, the NKE gyropilot with remote control is very efficient. But when sailing with crew, we like to disengage the piston from the steering mechanism to get a little more feedback from the rudders.
In this prospect the 12.50 is very disappointing compared to the 10.50, which has twin helms fitted directly on the rudderstocks, resulting in sensitive steering even with the twin rudders. The more forward and protected helming position of the 12.50 comes with the price of a (very solid) transmission that takes away most of the rudder feeling.

Given the light weight, at least on paper the 30HP engine is sufficient. But the boat being upright when motoring, the flat and beamy hull drags over an enormous surface of water. No problem on flat and windless waters, 8 knots can be reached.
But because light weight equals little inertia, the boat doesn’t like at all being motored into steep waves. I feel we have insufficient propulsion to eventually get ourselves quickly out of a difficult situation, which I consider unsafe.
After consultation with Structures we will first try to fit propeller blades with a higher pitch on the original Volvo hub. That’s because the max. revs are always easily reached, even in the harshest conditions, suggesting the engine power itself is not to blame. Plan B is fitting a three blade folding propeller, a much more expensive solution.

With the keel up, low weight and double rudders away from the propeller wash, maneuvering requires a learning curve, even with the retractable bow thruster. Sufficient speed is the key issue and if possible we prefer to dock backwards.

Fast in most circumstances
The boat is fast, no doubt about that. But carefully calibrating the log resulted in a correction factor of 0.85. This means our fastest surf on the long Atlantic waves when delivering the boat in april was in fact around 18 knots instead of over 21.

This has not been beaten since, but speeds of 13 knots and more are quite easy to achieve in a breeze, even without big following seas and/or the spinnaker.
Looking at the video Mr. W. posted (# 3335 on page 334) I fully agree that was no 25 or even 20 knots, more around 15. But even this kind of speed is indeed quite thrilling and the video shows very well that this can be done with no stress at all.
But one should not try to push his/her luck. I fully agree with Paulo that the guys on this video could have got into serious trouble with only the main up. It’s a big, heavy, fat headed sail that is very rewarding to trim, but without the shelter of a foresail it will be difficult to reef. It is absolutely impossible to bring the boat head to wind without a foresail, let alone to get it through a tack. And as said, in these conditions the engine might then be of little help.

By the way, picking up an older discussion about mainsail travelers, this kind of sail can only be handled with a very efficient one. Down to a beam reach, the sheet only serves as a downhoal to control the leech and shape of the sail. Power is regulated only, easily and very efficiently with the long, powerful traveler within direct reach of the helmsman. Don’t try this with a short traveler on the coachroof, unless you have Paulo at the helm and his athletic son at the piano .

Gentlemen do not sail upwind”. We don’t like it either but of course sometimes we have to. Let me be clear: sailing the 12.50 close hauled is not rewarding. Certainly not in choppy seas, as we frequently encounter in strong wind against tide conditions in these shallow waters.

With a good sail trim, the boat will point up to 33° of the apparent wind while maintaining a correct speed. You will not need 10 knots of wind to reach 6 knots. But you don’t want to try that in choppy seas, because the lack of inertia and the flat bow sections will make the boat slam. Slow and very uncomfortable.

So bearing down and easing the sheets a little is the way to generate sufficient power to get through. This gives very frustrating tacking angles on the chart plotter track, but the much better speed finally results in a quite satisfying VMG. So you end up in port together with most other production yachts of the same size, but after having sailed some more distance.

One time we gave up, against 2 meter but very steep waves and 30 knots of wind. Not because of the boat’s performance, it was just the crew that decided this was no fun at all.
So we turned our back and took a broad reach at an average of 15 knots, even without taking out the two reefs or replacing the staysail with the solent. Big smiles returned on all faces and if it weren’t for the trip back, we would probably have gone all the way up to Scandinavia .
So the main reason why you start really disliking sailing upwind with this boat, is because you know how fast any reaching course would be in the same conditions.

We never sail dead downwind. The mainsail looks horrible against the back swept spreaders, the battens don’t like this at all, the asymmetric spinnaker is completely useless even on the 2 meter bowsprit and gibing on broad reaches is not only a lot faster but also much more fun.

Easy to handle
All Pogo’s are concieved with shorthanded, if not single handed sailing in mind. It works, I do not hesitate to sail solo. Of course you need a reliable autopilot, which the NKE gyropilot is.

The helm is situated forward, which brings the helmsman within the cockpit, protected by the sprayhood and with all lines and winches within reach. No backbreaking efforts leaning over the leeward coamings and trying not end up in the guardrails, but straight up and looking forward in the most sheltered part of the cockpit.

Only no code zero or spinnaker in solo for me, because this means maneuvering on the foredeck without the backup of a cockpit crew.
What I do not look forward to, is hoisting the main on my own. The doubled halyard already gives you a good physical work-out at the mast, but without a crew taking up the slack it has to be done from the cockpit which is quite hard work. Not because of the track cars, these are almost frictionless and will let the main crash down on the boom in seconds if the halyard is not under control, but solely because of the weight of the big, fat headed sail.
And what I also do not look forward to, is docking the Pogo solo. As said, even with a crew this can be a challenge. But the learning curve is flattening .

Easy to maintain
Both NA and builder of the Pogo’s are very experienced sailors. When it comes to practical and efficient solutions, these guys definitely know what they’re talking about.
This is also very obvious on the 12.50, where everything is thought and laid out with efficiency, accessibility and ease of maintenance in mind. Although this might be somewhat easier in a boat without inner moulds, let it be clear that this particular aspect has been given much care.

From visible and thus accessible deck fittings to the technical starboard aft “cabin”, you don’t have to be a contortionist to maintain the boat and there are much less places where moisture and mould can hide. Dyneema lashings instead of shackles are not only lighter (and cheaper) but also much safer (just cut them in an emergency, even under load) and easy to replace. The removable and transparent fuel tank, the easy to clean interior surfaces, the list of practicalities is too long to fit in this already oversized post.

So let me put it this way: in this perspective the Bénéteau Sense concept seems like a nightmare to me. As is the absence of an easy access to the engine oil filter on the 12.50, which made the first replacement of this essential item a real nightmare .

Sufficiently comfortable
De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum ». The loft style interior of the Pogo is, if not shocking, at least repelling for many. We like it, especially for its brightness and simplicity, but this is a of course only a personal feeling.

Otherwise it has everything a cruiser needs, including a hot shower and a large refrigerator.
We even have heating, not really a luxury in this northern sailing area. But it lacks air conducts to the main and front cabin, only the aft cabins receive direct heating. Not that difficult to retrofit but this should have be foreseen by concept.

With 4.50 meters max. beam there is no lack of space, for living or for storing, even with all this foam underneath the berths. And again, lockers without doors but with plastic boxes instead look quite shocking at first, but are in fact an uncomplicated, very practical and seaworthy solution.
Given the fact that weight is a major issue everywhere on any Pogo, the finish is far away from e.g. Hallberg-Rassy but otherwise quite decent.

So the bottom line is, once again: every boat is the result of more or less distinct choices and this always implies compromises one way or the other. But given our personal cruising program and tastes, we are very happy with the 12.50.

I’ll try to post some pictures soon. And if I can get hold on them, maybe also a few short video’s taken by crewmembers who have the fortune of a digital camera .

Please excuse me for this excessively long post, probably overcompensating my absence on this wonderful thread .

Best regards and many cheers,

Eric
PCP, DiasDePlaya, bjung and 3 others like this.
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  #3327  
Old 12-30-2012
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Pogo 12.50

Thanks Eric. That was one of the best if not the best post on this thread and that is not only because it confirms what I think about the Pogo

I am really happy that the boat was everything you have hoped for.

The upwind performance with waves was expected and that is the reason that even a 40 Class racer can be beaten on a upwind race like the Hobart by a well sailed First 40, but we also saw what one had made on the last ARC Transat, beating a Swan 80.

My boat can make 6.5K at 27º on the conditions you give up to go upwind at 35º of apparent wind and actually is fun doing that (even if my wife got seasick) but certainly will not make 15K bearing off.

The only thing I think that deserves some thought is that need of changing the front sail when the wind increases. Certainly the guys from Pogo can provide you with a front sail that can work well furled even if at the cost of some performance, at least to be used when you sail solo or with your wife. probably the problem is with the front traveler position. Maybe a fixed point more inside for the lines?

Regarding that lack of efficiency with the engine I have experienced the same with the Opium 39 and the RM 1200, both boats with the large transom and I have saw in boat tests also a smaller motoring speed with the same engine on that type of boats. I guess you are right in what regards to more drag with the boat flat in the water, drag that only disappear when the boat heels slightly.

Again thank you for the excellent post and a great new year to you.

Die Siegeryachten des Jahres 2012 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin



Pogo 12.50 , Chantier Naval Structures from Andreas Lindlahr on Vimeo.



Regards

Paulo
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  #3328  
Old 12-31-2012
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo, thanks for posting the Atlantic again. Interesting boat. Not sure i find it's exterior lines as appealing as the others. When is someone going to produce alluminum hulls at a comparable price to the bigger shipyards? I know.....just dreaming out loud.

Happy New Year to All!
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Re: Pogo 12.50

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Thanks Eric. That was one of the best if not the best post on this thread and that is not only because it confirms what I think about the Pogo

I am really happy that the boat was everything you have hoped for.

The upwind performance with waves was expected and that is the reason that even a 40 Class racer can be beaten on a upwind race like the Hobart by a well sailed First 40, but we also saw what one had made on the last ARC Transat, beating a Swan 80.

My boat can make 6.5K at 27º on the conditions you give up to go upwind at 35º of apparent wind and actually is fun doing that (even if my wife got seasick) but certainly will not make 15K bearing off.

The only thing I think that deserves some thought is that need of changing the front sail when the wind increases. Certainly the guys from Pogo can provide you with a front sail that can work well furled even if at the cost of some performance, at least to be used when you sail solo or with your wife. probably the problem is with the front traveler position. Maybe a fixed point more inside for the lines?

Regarding that lack of efficiency with the engine I have experienced the same with the Opium 39 and the RM 1200, both boats with the large transom and I have saw in boat tests also a smaller motoring speed with the same engine on that type of boats. I guess you are right in what regards to more drag with the boat flat in the water, drag that only disappear when the boat heels slightly.

Again thank you for the excellent post and a great new year to you.

Thanks a lot, Paulo. Coming from you this is a very precious compliment.

So far we didn’t get the opportunity to spar with a Comet and certainly not the stunning 41. But at speed with 27° to the apparent wind we don’t stand a chance, probably not even to catch you back jibing on the downrun . For this we should have bought ourselves a racer and not a fast cruiser.

You’re right, a solent that can be partially rolled would be a good solution when encountering unforeseen hard winds with the inner forestay and staysail not rigged beforehand. The Facnor flatdeck roller can certainly take it and I think also the forestay profile is suited.

As you said, apart from another solent this implies a different system to control the sheeting angle. Now we have no rail at all, the clew of the sail is simply controlled by two lines returning to the cockpit. It looks quite “racy” but in fact it is very efficient once you get used to it because the sheeting angle can be set in three dimensions. Without this, especially the ability to bring the clew inward, our tacking angles would even be worse .

But this setup will be in the wrong position with a partially rolled solent so we would then need a rail more forward to cope with different degrees of reefing.

I will certainly discuss this with Structures. Our many previous trips to see the boat being built made us fall in love with Brittany, so we plan to return there for our next holiday and pay the yard a visit.

We somewhat anticipated this problem, certainly when our sons are sailing the boat. You know, dinghy sailors… they trim the sail as flat and as open as they can before changing it for the staysail. This is very challenging for the sailcloth and even the best Dacron would probably not survive this kind of treatment very long, that’s why we have a solent in carbon reinforced laminate.

Nice sail, but we also have learnt about its drawbacks. This cloth has no stretch at all, which makes “the groove” upwind very narrow for the helmsman. It also means that the clutch (dyneema cored halyard, so also there almost no stretch) takes it all. No problem for the clutch or the halyard core, but the polyester mantle didn’t hold the tension and teared twice. Now we keep the halyard on the winch with the clutch open when tensioned.

I’ll keep you updated about the results with the higher pitched propeller blades or the three blade replacement. I certainly hope to be able to avoid plan C, which is a stronger engine .

Best regards and wishing you all an excellent start in 2013,

Eric
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Velsheda

Thank you Eric. I wish you and all that follow this thread great winds, sunny days and a great new year

And a small story. Here is a bit more than 2 AM and I have just returned home after passing the new years eve in a party with some friends. One of them call me and said Paulo, I have here a friend that is also a sailor and present me to a young lad you shining eyes. I asked about his boat and I could not believe his answer: VELSHEDA. Jesus, there are some lucky guys that are actually PAID to sail that beauty. Yes, he feels very lucky to have that privilege too.

They are going to cross to America soon. Some videos of one of the most beautiful sailing boats around: Velsheda





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