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  #3391  
Old 01-10-2013
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Re: Time out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Guys this will be my last day on this thread, at least regarding the way I have been running it. I have to prepare my sailing summer and have other stuff to do. This takes simply too much time.

I will try to reply to all that pose concrete questions but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.

This is not my thread anymore, but your thread. Along the time there were many knowledgeable sailors that have participated. It is all yours I hope you can maintain it with the same interest that justified more than a thousand hits a day.

Best regards to all.

Paulo
Paulo,
Now that's bad news for the thread.
Thanks for all your comprehensive posts, and for bringing attention to otherwise little known yachts ( at least in the US ), and designs. Lots of knowledge and info on this thread.
But everyone here knows how to get you back out of hybernation. Just post a slow boat, maybe even full keel, talk nonsense on stability and RM or trash one of those Comet 41s. Works every time!
I hope you stick around.
Bernd
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  #3392  
Old 01-12-2013
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On design

Along this thread I have refused to take sides in what regards the ideal type of hull for a sailing boat and for a good reason: that depends on the sail conditions the boat is mostly used (downwind, upwind, with waves, without waves) and also in what regards the crew number.

A boat can be faster but require a numerous crew to be sailed. That same boat if sailed solo will be much slower than a well designed solo boat that if sailed by a crew would be a lot slower than the first.

But beside the maximization of the boat performance to a given criteria, even if that criteria remains constant, the NA are always learning and improving design. In as little as 10 years we can see big differences.

Let’s have a look at it. I don’t want to write much because I don’t want to make this post long but also because for the ones that can read the hull lines, the differences are obvious.

Nothing better than start with the old AC monohulls. The last year they were raced was 2007 and at that time the sailors were complaining that the boats were too much balanced to upwind sailing and that downwind the boats were just SLOW and that in the overall balance they were not fast sailboats, for top racing boats.

Anyway, upwind they could sail very fast at incredible angles and that’s what those hulls were maximized for. We can see that in just 17 years the design improvements are HUGE. Of course these boats heel a lot, have a small hull form stability and the major contribution in what regards the RM generated come from the big ballast on a bulb at the end of a very big draft.







And to go on, we are looking to the opposite hull shape, the best hull form maximized for downwind sail and most of all designed to be sailed solo, the Open 60. First a 1996 Finot design and then a Juan K 2007/2012 Design. Again a huge difference in a bit more than 10 years.




The Open 60 shape is not the fastest shape to go fast downwind but the best shape to go SOLO fast downwind. As we can see even if the boat carries a considerable ballast on a canting keel and has water ballasts, hull form has a huge importance here in what regards stability.

With this kind of hull the boat minimizes the more dangerous movement downwind, the lateral roll with provoked by lateral waves. On a narrow hull when the boat is hit laterally (on aft part of the boat) by a wave the boat will heel till that big ballast can generate the force to bring the boat back but then, because the hull has little form stability, the opposite roll induces by the boat RM will not stop at the vertical and will continue to the other side (in a lesser extent).

This movement can become synchronous with the waves and can create a very dangerous situation. It is needed a crew (at the sails) and a good hand at the helm to stop that. It would be very dangerous on a boat with one guy and unthinkable on autopilot.

On the same situation, those fat asses on the Open 60 will damp immediately that movement. The hull form stability is so big that the boat don’t need to heel to stop that movement and if it will heel, that opposite movement would be damped by the hull form stability and the boat will not oscillate from side to side like a narrow boat will do.

Many think that these boats are very poor upwind. Well they are worst then narrow boats and there are some technical reasons for that in what regards pointing ability (that I will not discuss here) but they manage to have a bigger waterline (a transversal one) and the wet area is a very slim one (they have a small wetted surface).

Things become much worse for them if they face waves. When the wave passes by the hull it increases a lot the wet surface that is in contact with the water and that’s why they have a big wave drag that slows them a lot.

They are really bad upwind (and very uncomfortable)in that situation but in flat water upwind their difference in performance compared with a narrower boat is much smaller and in some cases they can even take advantage of their smaller weight (less ballast needed) to create some surprises.

Some very interesting computer images that show the wet surface on those boats sailing in flat water (Owen Clark Design):











The Open60 can go solo downwind much faster than an America Cup monohull boat with a full crew because its flatter and beamier hull make is much more easier to plan than an AC cup, that will never manage to go much faster than its hull speed while the Open60 can easily go at two times hull speed…. and on autopilot.

But the Open60 it is not the best hull shape to go fast downwind with a crew.

A narrower boat, even if a lot more beamier than the AC cup boat, can do better but will be more difficult to control and in many cases impossible to control on autopilot or solo.

A good example of that type of boat is the VOR 70. Also here we can see the huge evolution in hull design in just about 10 years, between a 2001 design from Bruce Farr and the Juan K that won the last edition: Groupama




Regarding more overall balanced boats, between upwind and downwind sailing, probably one of the best is the Maxi Rambler, also a Juan K design:



And even if bigger boats are proportionally less beamy than smaller boats, we can see the boat is less beamier than an Vor70. But of course, even on this size, if the boat goes against a lot of waves and is mostly sailed upwind, a less beamier boat will do even better and that’s why the chronic winner of the Sydney-Hobart race is Wild Oates, a Reichel/Puig design.

Have a look at it. As all know that race is mostly an upwind race with bad weather. On most conditions and probably even on that race if the percentage of upwind sailing is not too big, the Rambler will be faster, but on an edition with contrary winds, the Wild Oates will only be beaten by a more modern designed boat maximized for upwind sailing.



Some will think that this has nothing with the design of cruising sailboats, well they are wrong.

Of course cruising sailboats are designed with different criteria but many of the developments that come from top racing design have an application in the design of cruising boats. You have only to look at the change of hulls on the last 15 years to see that many of those improvements have already made its way to cruising deigns. First to performance cruisers and then to mass production cruisers. After all they are designed by the same NAs.

But remember, except cruising racers that are occasionally raced with a crew, almost all cruising boats are sailed by a very small crew. That’s why the major influence come from solo racing boats, not only the Open 60 but the smaller Benetau Figaro and this ones are not only used on downwind races (transat) but more than half the time in mixed wind races and that’s why they are more balanced (downwind/upwind) than an Open 60.

If you cannot see any resemblances on these designs, both very ahead of its time, and the cruising boats that were designed after, well, you have a problem in your eyes.

The first Figaro Benetau was a 1990 Finot design and the second and actual design a 2002 Marc Lombard design:






Very soon we will have a new Benetau Figaro Design and I cannot wait to see it. Probably, like this two, it will be a major influence on the cruising boats to come.
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  #3393  
Old 01-13-2013
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Re: Time out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Guys this will be my last day on this thread, at least regarding the way I have been running it. I have to prepare my sailing summer and have other stuff to do. This takes simply too much time.

I will try to reply to all that pose concrete questions but I cannot say how long it will take to reply.

This is not my thread anymore, but your thread. Along the time there were many knowledgeable sailors that have participated. It is all yours I hope you can maintain it with the same interest that justified more than a thousand hits a day.

Best regards to all.

Paulo
Hi Paulo

I just checked to see if it was 1 April but we are a way off that.

Like others, I have found this thread to be absolutely invaluable to my own knowledge in so many ways - different boats, compromises, sails, design, stability, racing, cruising grounds. Someone mentioned that the thread deserves to be published. I absolutely agree.


Before buying my share in a second hand Hanse 350, I felt so well equipped having read this thread very carefully - merci mille fois mon ami
I suspect though that it will be difficult for you to resist albeit in a somewhat less onerous way. I can only imagine the hours that you have devoted to this thread. I look forward to our continued fix of beautiful boats

Onwards and upwards

David
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  #3394  
Old 01-13-2013
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Gentlemen make your bets please!

If the kid that is leading now does not break the boat, I bet on him. A rookie and a new guy on the Open60. He has already made an amazing recovery: Missed the start, had to go around all other boats and pass the line again...well, he overtake them all François is his name:

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking
It seems I really should have made a bet, I guess there is somebody accepting bets on this. He was not the favorite at the beginning and the money would have come handy.

Now wit Armel at 260Nm and following the same course, unless he has a technical problem he is going to win this race. And it will be a good thing: He will prove that now there is not needed a huge amount of previous experience on this race to win it (he is a rookie) and therefore young talents will have more chances to find a budget to race the big one, this race.

some impressive images:


Arnaud Boissières bien accroché por VendeeGlobeTV


Day 64 highlights por VendeeGlobeTV

PS. Thank you guys for your nice words. I will continue posting according with my available time. Regards to all - Paulo
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  #3395  
Old 01-13-2013
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Re: Vendee Globe

[QUOTE=PCP;974813]It seems I really should have made a bet, I guess there is somebody accepting bets on this. He was not the favorite at the beginning and the money would have come handy.

Now wit Armel at 260Nm and following the same course, unless he has a technical problem he is going to win this race. And it will be a good thing: He will prove that now there is not needed a huge amount of previous experience on this race to win it (he is a rookie) and therefore young talents will have more chances to find a budget to race the big one, this race. /QUOTE]


I also think so Paulo, at least now I do .

François Gabart made a false start (at a round the world race ?? ) but was certainly not the only one. At least it hasn’t stopped him from leading most of the race, together with Armel Le Cleac’h.

Until a few days ago, when they made different choices for the third time. The first time was in the South Atlantic and the second at the passage of the second “porte de glaces” in the Indian Ocean, but none made a significant difference.

Having passed cape Horn and the Falklands/Malvinas (Argentina raises this geopolitical issue again ) François Gabart chose to stay East of the direct course looking for better winds. A very successful move that has earned him an advance of 260 NM. This is a real, objective distance since Armel Le Cleac’h is now back on the same longitude, still 2 knots slower than François Gabart and without any short time perspective for better winds.

Of course the doldrums are awaiting all of them and also the Azores high can still complicate things. But since François Gabart has made not one single mistake yet (apart from the “dinghy style” start ), I agree only technical failure can prevent him anymore from winning his “Everest of the Seas” (although many more have conquered the Everest (or died up there) than finished the Vendée Globe, but this is a different topic).
Or running into a fishing boat without AIS or any other UFO (Unidentified Floating Object) .

So I also think the “rookie” is going to make it to the top of the podium of what I personally consider the most challenging and thrilling sailing race ever.

I would not have made a single penny out of my own first bet, Paulo. Even if Vincent Riou would not have damaged his hull and especially his outrigger after colliding with a freaked buoy, and even if he would then win the VG, having already participated twice and won once he was a top favorite anyway.
Now I realize you once again did your homework perfectly well before pointing to François Gabart. And now I also see why he is not really a “rookie”.

The boat: a recent VPLP design, launched 15 months before the race, extensively sailed and improved (21.000 NM!).

The sponsor: MACIF takes François Gabart seriously and supports him professionally since 2010.

The team: Mer Agitée, coached by Michel Desjoyeaux (“Mich’ Dej”, “le professeur” for the frenchies), the only double winner of the VG and now a living legend, at least in France .

The guy: only 29 years old, French national champion in Optimist at 14, in Moth Europe at 16 and youth world champion in Tornado at 20. At 22 and at 24 he wins the student rank of the Tour de France à la Voile. Then come participations to the Solitaire du Figaro (2nd in 2010) and to transatlantic races, also in open 60’s ( 2nd Transat Jacques Fabre in 2009). With actual the open 60’ MACIF he was 4th in the Transat Jacques Fabre and won the Transat B to B (Back to Brittany after the Jacques Fabre) in 2011.

Meanwhile he became a mechanical engineer at the INSA of Lyon. And according to Wikipedia he also routed Kito de Pavant and Sébastien Col during the Transat Jacques Fabre in 2007.
So apart from sailing and mechanics, he also seems to know quite a lot about weather and wind patterns .

All this information was readily available before the start of this extraordinary race and now the analysis is of course quite easy. So it really takes a real expert such as Paulo to see the whole picture right from the beginning.

After the abandon of Vincent Riou, Armel Le Cleac’h was my second bet. Again very safe, because of an equally promising and recent VPLP design, a truthful sponsor and a very experienced team. Plus a guy with also a very impressive sailing record and much more experience, especially in this very particular race.

But now I fully agree François Gabart will very probably win this VG and become the next French living sailing legend.
Again an easy bet for me but more importantly a good thing for us, sailors, because it really seems this 29 year old is a guy we will hear a lot more about.

Watch out for the images from Les Sables-d’Olonne when he will finish this VG ! Plus all the others, who equally deserve our very profound respect.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #3396  
Old 01-14-2013
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Re: Vendee Globe

[quote=EricKLYC;975126]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
.... But since François Gabart has made not one single mistake yet (apart from the “dinghy style” start ), I agree only technical failure can prevent him anymore from winning his “Everest of the Seas” (although many more have conquered the Everest (or died up there) than finished the Vendée Globe, but this is a different topic).
..
So I also think the “rookie” is going to make it to the top of the podium of what I personally consider the most challenging and thrilling sailing race ever.

...
Now I realize you once again did your homework perfectly well before pointing to François Gabart. And now I also see why he is not really a “rookie”.

The boat: a recent VPLP design, launched 15 months before the race, extensively sailed and improved (21.000 NM!).

The sponsor: MACIF takes François Gabart seriously and supports him professionally since 2010.

The team: Mer Agitée, coached by Michel Desjoyeaux (“Mich’ Dej”, “le professeur” for the frenchies), the only double winner of the VG and now a living legend, at least in France .

The guy: only 29 years old, French national champion in Optimist at 14, in Moth Europe at 16 and youth world champion in Tornado at 20. At 22 and at 24 he wins the student rank of the Tour de France à la Voile. Then come participations to the Solitaire du Figaro (2nd in 2010) and to transatlantic races, also in open 60’s ( 2nd Transat Jacques Fabre in 2009). With actual the open 60’ MACIF he was 4th in the Transat Jacques Fabre and won the Transat B to B (Back to Brittany after the Jacques Fabre) in 2011.

Meanwhile he became a mechanical engineer at the INSA of Lyon. And according to Wikipedia he also routed Kito de Pavant and Sébastien Col during the Transat Jacques Fabre in 2007.
So apart from sailing and mechanics, he also seems to know quite a lot about weather and wind patterns .

All this information was readily available before the start of this extraordinary race and now the analysis is of course quite easy. So it really takes a real expert such as Paulo to see the whole picture right from the beginning.

After the abandon of Vincent Riou, Armel Le Cleac’h was my second bet. Again very safe, because of an equally promising and recent VPLP design, a truthful sponsor and a very experienced team. Plus a guy with also a very impressive sailing record and much more experience, especially in this very particular race.

But now I fully agree François Gabart will very probably win this VG and become the next French living sailing legend.
Again an easy bet for me but more importantly a good thing for us, sailors, because it really seems this 29 year old is a guy we will hear a lot more about.

Watch out for the images from Les Sables-d’Olonne when he will finish this VG ! Plus all the others, who equally deserve our very profound respect.

Best regards,

Eric
Eric,

François Gabart was already for me the best sailor of the younger generation and it was no by accident that on the last Figaro the ony that was able to beat him has ....Armel

At the beginning of the race I would have just bet on the 3 that are ahead and for that order even if I would give almost a 50% chance of being Armel or Gabart arriving first.

Armel is older than François but not much and is much younger than the others. Jean-Pierre is a different case it is the only one that has not come as a professional from the beginning, since kid like the others. The guy was a Veterinary and from a healthy family. The other guys that normally have no respect for rich amateurs that are only racing expensive boats because are rich, have a lot of respect for him, a professional one. They call him the Gentleman racer...and he is good. He had bad luck with the mast and rig, had to go 5 times to the top of it and on account of that lose a frontal system that put Armel and François out of reach, being caught in light winds for a lot of time.

So definitively on this race we have the end of a generation and the born of another one, in what regards winning. I guess next edition we will see a lot of new racers coming from the 40 class racers and Figaro classes.


Day 65 highlights por VendeeGlobeTV

Regards

Paulo
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Old 01-15-2013
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Discovery 57

This is one of the boats that is nominated for the 2013 European boat of the year contest in the category of Luxury cruisers. Cannot say it is a favorite of mine and the thing I like most is the galley. That one is one of the best I have seen on a 55/57ft boat. Just great. The interior is a Ken Frievokh design and it is in my opinion a very good one. Nice design everywhere:

Ken Freivokh Design | superyacht stylists architects and interior designers

The hull, cabin and rig are a Ron Holland design and I don't like it very much. A 57ft the boat should look more elegant and the hull design looks 15 year old. The Englishmen are very traditional but even so. I really don't like the wheel's man position, up on the "2th floor", very high and without any protection from the spray or wind. The transom looks just...old.

Ron Holland Design | the ultimate performance yacht designers

Discovery Yachts // The Discovery 57 – the design of a new classic




Video: Why Discovery Yachts are made in Britain - Telegraph

Video: How Discovery Yachts survived the recession - Telegraph
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  #3398  
Old 01-16-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

It seems the jackal found a much better line than the kid. When will le Cleac'h slow down, too?
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Old 01-16-2013
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Incredible Armel, the Jackal at work!!!

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
It seems the jackal found a much better line than the kid. When will le Cleac'h slow down, too?
That's true. Absolutely incredibly since we cannot find the reason for that huge difference in performance on the weather chart they give it to us.

Armel, on the Doldrums, managed to reduce the difference from 260nm to 80nm and it seems that it will recover some more since the difference in speed on the last hour is huge. But it seem to me that after that François has a little more pressure than Armel and is going to recover some of the distance. Anyway, with a 80nm difference all things remain open again

Great play from Armel and one that I judged impossible. Great race

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Cartographie


Day 67 highlights por VendeeGlobeTV
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Old 01-17-2013
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Safety: man overboard.

Hey Guys, have a good look at this report and investigation. Very well made and one that can be very useful if someone is on a similar situation. Lots of stupid errors made by what seem to be experienced sailors lead to the death of one of them.

http://www.bsu-bund.de/SharedDocs/pd...ublicationFile
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