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  #3401  
Old 01-18-2013
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Re: Safety: man overboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hey Guys, have a good look at this report and investigation. Very well made and one that can be very useful if someone is on a similar situation. Lots of stupid errors made by what seem to be experienced sailors lead to the death of one of them.

http://www.bsu-bund.de/SharedDocs/pd...ublicationFile
Thanks! This is a very good report of what happened on the water. There has been even more fallout, as the regional body for testing (Pruefungsausschuss Rhein- Ruhr) has been accused of issuing boatinglicenses without instructions and testing, but for cash. .
The head of the testingcommission already stepped down, and all instructors directly involved in this case were dismissed.
When 8 supposedly well trained crew are unable to hoist one man aboard then there is an issue with training.
I am afraid that this event may turn into a nasty problem for Salona, due to the issue with the boarding ladder. Luckily for Salona, this did not happen in the USA.
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  #3402  
Old 01-18-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Makes for a resounding case for two things.. a practical, permanently mounted 'swim' ladder, and crotch straps for PFDs - not just for kids.

Some impressive looking credentials on that boat crew and skipper wise, but perhaps given the issue mentioned above that's all it is.. impressive "looking"...
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  #3403  
Old 01-18-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Very, very impressive indeed.

This report opened my eyes and will certainly improve the safety issues on our boat.
Especially regarding the bathing ladder, which we also kept in a locker but will now be permanently and securely fitted, immediatly ready for use.

Kind regards,

Eric
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  #3404  
Old 01-18-2013
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Re: Incredible Armel, the Jackal at work!!!

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Great play from Armel and one that I judged impossible. Great race
As expected, the ITCZ has regrouped the leaders.
François Gabart first touched the weak winds and so Armel Le Cleac’h made up quite a lot of miles. But François got better conditions first and is now (cartography at 18.00 UT) again 120 NM ahead and still somewhat faster than Armel.

Without any different strategic choices between them, since for the moment Armel is only following François.
Being the chaser, Armel has a little advantage considering the options about the next challenge: passing the Azores high. Little, because of the short distance between him and the leader, at least on a meteorological scale.

But since François didn’t make any single mistake yet (except his early start ), I don’t think even ”the jackal”will be able to keep “the rookie” from arriving first at les Sables d’Olonne.

Again, a very easy bet for me but an extraordinary performance for all the skippers.

Great race indeed!
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  #3405  
Old 01-18-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks for that report Paulo, it really goes to show how a fairly routine cruise can turn into disaster so quickly. Note the time from when he fell to his recovery was only 15 minutes until he apparently was minimally responsive at the stern of the boat. Water temp was extremely cold (46-50F). In retrospect, there were obviously actions that could have been taken, but nothing I couldn't see a lot of people doing. So be careful out there...
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  #3406  
Old 01-19-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo this is a great safety report and should have it own thread, so we can vet out and learn from this tragic accident. Maybe the Mods can cut it out and move it into its own thread. So much to discuss.
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  #3407  
Old 01-23-2013
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Vendee Globe

Hi Guys,

Back from Dusseldorf. I will try to reply to your posts but first some news on the Vendee Globe:

The king of bad luck: Jean Pierre-Dick that after having to climb an incredible number of times to the top of the mast (6?) has lost the keel. Well, not a reason to give up, the man keeps sailing with reefed sails and a lot of care, carefully managing the water ballasts. Even so 10.8K 24 hour average on a boat without a keel: CHAPEAU

I love that guy, it is one of my favorite sailors and I wish him good luck. He really needs it to finish the race. He is coming from Brazil to France sailing an Open 60 dinghy style. That means lots of time at the rudder because any error from the autopilot could mean an instant capsize.

the story:

Jean-Pierre Dick (FRA, Virbac Paprec 3):

Yesterday night before 11PM I heard a huge noise. It’s was the head of the keel. It broke. I immediately went out to pull down the sails because the conditions were hard and I had to prevent my boat from capsizing.

I’m still in the race. My sails are still here. I had Marc Guillemot on the phone, he gave my some advices. I have my ballasts full of water. The boat is still going on. So I’m going north at least to the Azores.

Today:
I have good sensations about the boat. The nights are getting longer, about 12 hours, which at least gives me an opportunity to get some rest. I had a couple of heavy showers last night, but no problem, really. I'm working hard to keep Virbac Paprec 3 balanced and stable, using the ballasts and tacting the bags and the sails. I'm studying the various possibilities at the navigation table in order to guarantee my safety, and the boat's.


Just to remember, Marc had just managed to pull a similar trick last year. He broke the keel about the same place where Jean-Pierre lost his and managed to bring the boat back to finish the race.

Another conclusion that becomes clear is that the head of the keel needs to be substituted each 2 years or so. I guess this is the same that happened to mark and the answer is probably the same: metal fatigue due to the huge and constant forces that are subjected to that place. Theoretically there was a big safety margin but nobody knew what would be the metal fatigue. Well know they do


Jean-Pierre Dick fait l'état des lieux après la... por VendeeGlobeTV


Day 74 highlights por VendeeGlobeTV
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  #3408  
Old 01-23-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I certainly hope you enjoyed Düsseldorf, Paulo!
And that we may read a lot about your impressions .

I also feel for Jean-Pierre Dick. Now he will not be able to defend his third place against Alex Thomson anymore. Or maybe even finish this Vendée Globe, if the North Atlantic depressions are too strong to make it to Les Sables without his keel.
This is indeed pure dinghy sailing, but on a IMOCA 60 footer . With only displaceable weight (water ballast & load distribution, the so-called “matossage”) and the form stability –luckily quite huge on these boats- to keep such a mean racing machine upright and sailing.

This raises once again the question: must fundamental safety issues such as keel and rig design be assessed by more regulation? In the last issue of Yachting World Merfyn Owen, designer of three Vendée boats, states the European NA were already in favor of one-design keels and rigs. But organisers and skippers would not hear about it…

Anyway, except for technical failure or collision (especially the latter becoming an important risk in this last stage to the finish) the podium of the Vendée Globe is known: 1st François Gabart, 2nd Armel Le Cleac’h and 3rd Alex Thomson.
No way Gabart is going to give away 100 NM, also because he is the first to hit the “depression train” straight to the finish.
In my opinion, also Alex deserves this podium. His Hugo Boss is an older and arguably slower design. And this time he didn’t destroy it (so far) .

Best regards,

Eric
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  #3409  
Old 01-23-2013
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2013 European boat of the year I

As most here already now, this contest is a bit different than all other in a sense that the boats are actively tested not by one or two testers but by dozens of testers from all big sailing magazines of Europe so the results really are more meaningful regarding the best the market has to offer, at least in the opinion of testers that have sailing experience on previously tested hundreds of boats and know very well the boats on the market.

Well, I am just saying that because they have chosen the boats I would probably chose

On the hottest category, family cruisers the winner was a good surprise, the RM 1260. I had said about its possibilities on a previous post about the boat and the contest:

"The RM 1260 is an improvement of the RM 1200 and as the 1200 was already a great boat, the 1260 is even better. But it is only an improvement not a breakthrough and is a more specialized boat, not pointed to the main crown but to the cruiser that voyages. Maybe because the boat was there but was not well known on the other markets out of France it stands some chances but I don't thing it stands so much chances has the Bavaria."

Well, I was wrong. It seems that the testers were really very impressed with the sail potential and Family/voyage potential of the RM 1260. Impressive, a boat that some years back was just a cult boat among the French and a boat that is not a main market boat winning the Boat of the year contest on the Family class. RM deserved that title not only for this boat but for all the other great boats that they produce, boats for sailors, boats for cruising with the family, definitively not marina boats. I visited the boat on the saloon. A bit more modern than the previous model but not much different. I had the pleasure of sailing the previous model and I can say that choice is more than fair.



Regarding the winner on the Luxury cruiser class, a big surprise, the IT 13.98. I mean it was the boat that I liked more by far but I would not know how well the boat would sail and had not seen the interior quality.

On a previous post I had said about the Italia 13.98 and the contest:

The Italia 13.98 brings something new, a classic looking boat with top performance sailing so it may well create a surprise here but I really don't know how the different members of the jury are going to value that.

Now, I know decidedly those guys appreciated the superb sailing performance of the boat and now that I have been inside I can say, the beautiful interior, great finish quality and cruising fit interior. Great choice. It is not even much expensive for the quality (around 400 000 Euros) and if I had the money I would be very tempted with this one. Gorgeous cruiser, great sailing pleasure for sure and great comfort on the interior. What a boat



European performance cruiser of the year is the Dufour 36P. Well this one did not seem the most exciting boat on contest. It looked heavy to me, the interior was not bad but also nothing outstanding. I have said previously about this boat and the contest:

The Dufour 36 performance is a nice boat even if I find it a bit heavy. I don't think that it has much chances, or maybe the boat sails better than what I suspect and in that case it can be a contender. It has a nice interior but not really anything new or very exiting.

Well I bet I was wrong about the sailing qualities and I hope to have the possibility to see that personally in some months when Zdamen receives his new boat.

By the way Zdamen, congratulations about your choice. So many experienced sailors could not fail in what regards choosing a boat and given the competition (Xp-50, GS 39, Sly 38, MC 34) the boat has to sail very well

I wait with anticipation that sailing with Zdamen





I will talk about the other 2 categories when I have the time and also about boat disappointments. The two bigger: The Halberg-Rassy 412 and the Hanse 415.

,,,

Last edited by PCP; 01-23-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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  #3410  
Old 01-23-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Thanks! This is a very good report of what happened on the water. There has been even more fallout, as the regional body for testing (Pruefungsausschuss Rhein- Ruhr) has been accused of issuing boating licenses without instructions and testing, but for cash. .
The head of the testing commission already stepped down, and all instructors directly involved in this case were dismissed.
When 8 supposedly well trained crew are unable to hoist one man aboard then there is an issue with training.
I am afraid that this event may turn into a nasty problem for Salona, due to the issue with the boarding ladder. Luckily for Salona, this did not happen in the USA.
They were obviously not well trained and that seems to have been a total chaos on that operation. Regarding the report there seems to be several things missing:

Wind and sea state and most of all the time table of all operation.

Regarding turning a nasty problem to Salona I don't think so. The legislation permits the use of removable stairs (many other boats use them) and the ones responsible to store it on a difficult place to access is the owner/crew. I know the fixation system and it is a very safe one providing it is maintained in an adequate maintenance condition. Basically you insert the stair on a rail, push it to the end and turn a thumb wheel to get it properly fixed. For what I have understood one of those thumb wheels was not greased and did not turn, making impossible to insert one of the sides in the rail.

I guess that what this accident is going to change is the European legislation making mandatory a fixed stair accessible/deployed from the water and that’s a justifiable measure in what regards safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Makes for a resounding case for two things.. a practical, permanently mounted 'swim' ladder, and crotch straps for PFDs - not just for kids.
Some impressive looking credentials on that boat crew and skipper wise, but perhaps given the issue mentioned above that's all it is.. impressive "looking"...
Regarding credentials I guess Bjung got it right. Unfortunately some of the most basic ones (and it seems most of them were) means just nothing except money (“regional body for testing (Pruefungsausschuss Rhein- Ruhr) has been accused of issuing boating licenses without instructions and testing, but for cash”) and the instructor (skipper) did seem not to have the training or competence to do his job.

A fixed stair is a lot better than one that has to be put in place but it is obvious that they did not even tried to assemble the stair before going out on an unknown boat. If they had done that they would have found that a thumb wheel was stuck and would have oiled it and unstuck it. I can assure you that if that stair was in an accessible place and without a lot of stuff over it (I don’t know if the place where it was stored was easily accessible ) probably I could have mounted it in less than 15 seconds and surely in not more than 30 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tschmidty View Post
.. Note the time from when he fell to his recovery was only 15 minutes until he apparently was minimally responsive at the stern of the boat. Water temp was extremely cold (46-50F). In retrospect, there were obviously actions that could have been taken, but nothing I couldn't see a lot of people doing. So be careful out there...
I don’t know if they could have pulled him out if the boat had a fixed stair. For what I understood the guy on the water was not hurt but when it reached the stair they say he was already in shock and unable to climb it.

The question that begged to be answered is how much time they took to drive the man to the stair. The guy was connected to the boat by a line and they tried first to get him out on the side of the boat and that is pretty stupid.

How much time they have lost with that nonsense? How much time takes a non blessed man to a shock state in 46/50F water? They should have been able to mount the removable stair in less than a minute and drive by the line the man on the water to the stair in another minute. All recovering operation should have lasted no more than 3 minutes .

The main reason I have posted this here was because I was shocked by how this accident was possible. Panic and lack of training can have dramatic consequences and block rational thought creating chaos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Very, very impressive indeed.

This report opened my eyes and will certainly improve the safety issues on our boat.
Especially regarding the bathing ladder, which we also kept in a locker but will now be permanently and securely fitted, immediatly ready for use.
Eric
Yes, like yours and the Salona mine has also a removable ladder and yes I am also going to change the locker where I keep it to have it more ready.

Besides that, because I am typically absent minded and I sail solo sometimes, the first thing I have done in my boat was to rig a small rope on the transom that is inside the boat and can be reached from the water. The rope has two loops for the feet, works as a makeshift ladder and allow me to get back on board without the removable ladder in place(I have tried it).

You know I like to wake up in the morning with a jump to the water and a swim and I bet that someday I will forget to put the dam ladder in place My previous boat had a fixed ladder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
Paulo this is a great safety report and should have it own thread, so we can vet out and learn from this tragic accident. Maybe the Mods can cut it out and move it into its own thread. So much to discuss.
Melrna, please feel free to post it on another thread if you think it will be useful, this or any other thing I post here.

Best regards to all.

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-23-2013 at 09:40 PM.
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