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  #3431  
Old 01-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

What will this do to the support for the Volvo Round the World Race?

Who wants to watch a crewed race, with multiple stops, when these courageous solo sailors fly around the world nonstop at amazing speeds, in boats built with incredible technology?
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  #3432  
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
While the Kid is at less than 24 yours to win the race the attention is on Jean-Pierre that had to sail his boat without keel on heavy seas and high winds. He had survived but CHAPEAU to Mike Golding, look a this:

"Armel will be second and Mike 3th."
Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?

What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.

Regarding the comparison to the VOR, I think it's two very different events, and although the VG s more sailor-hero-oriented, which is fine, there is nothing like the roadshow that the VOR puts on, with a visiting tour. I don't think a nonstop race will ever draw more crowd than a destination-focused tour, which promotes tourism and thus a greater overall public effect. I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.

Regards to all,

Hans

Last edited by Faster; 01-27-2013 at 11:02 AM. Reason: fixed quote
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  #3433  
Old 01-27-2013
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?

What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.

I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.

Regards to all,

Hans
That makes at least three of us watching this fantastic moment .
May be all the others are in Les Sables d'Ollonne . Knowing more than 400.000 "skippers" participated in the virtual race, I guess the finish was followed by many different canals. Although the french TV station FR3 interrupted the live report a few minutes before the actual finish because of... a cycling race .

It seems Armel Le Cleac'h is going tot make it in time to enter Les Sables within the same tide, which would make this exceptional celebration day complete.

Kind regards,

Eric
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Last edited by EricKLYC; 01-27-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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  #3434  
Old 01-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I think that the discussion about the HR 412 (Edit-corrected typo) goes to the heart of much of the diversity of opinion about "What is a Blue water boat?".

While the hull form, structural capabilities and rig may be suitable for offshore cruising, (Edit for clarity-the three cabin version with) its interior layout, detailing, storage provisions, and so are clearly better suited to coastal cruising. To me that is perfectly acceptable as design offered to the public as long as that is how the company portrays the design in their own literature and statements.

But I also think, where these discussions begin to address the realities of boats like these, is that it also makes sense to have a model option which is biased more toward regular offshore use. Offshore bunks, compartments and openings should by necessity be smaller, and there should be solid footholds and handholds. Rigs need to be a little more robust, and carefully conceived and secure storage needs to take a higher priority.

And I contend that an offshore cruiser making three-four week hops in the Atlantic may not be the same boat as a distance voyaging yacht that crosses the vast open areas of the Pacific. Boats for circumnavigations and a Pacific crossing need to be far more independent and so place a much greater demand on carrying capacity, and storage volumes.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-28-2013 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Corrected typo on Boat model from 416 to 412 and added clarifying note..
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  #3435  
Old 01-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Banque Populaire just docked with skipper Armel Le Cleac'h, second of the Vendée Globe, only 3 hours behind the winner, after sailing solo, non stop and without assitance around the world ).

May be you also noticed the little dacron sail F21309 pointing out on the pontoon, in the middle of the journalists? It's the little Optimist Armel first raced with as a child.
This 2.30 meter dinghy has been perfectly restaured by his team, as a very personal surprise gift to their skipper at this arrival .

Although the Vendée Globe is the ultimate solo race, I think this says quite a lot about the intimacy between skipper and team.

Kind regards,

Eric

Last edited by EricKLYC; 01-27-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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  #3436  
Old 01-27-2013
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?

What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.

Regarding the comparison to the VOR, I think it's two very different events, and although the VG s more sailor-hero-oriented, which is fine, there is nothing like the roadshow that the VOR puts on, with a visiting tour. I don't think a nonstop race will ever draw more crowd than a destination-focused tour, which promotes tourism and thus a greater overall public effect. I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.

Regards to all,

Hans
The event is carried live on most European TV channels so, that is why the number of online watchers seems low. I believe the live stream is the only way to watch in the US. There are about 50,000 people at Les Sables d'Olonne harbor greeting both, François and Armel at their arrival today.

Last edited by Zoya; 01-27-2013 at 03:07 PM.
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  #3437  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I think that the discussion about the HR 416 goes to the heart of much of the diversity of opinion about "What is a Blue water boat?".

While the hull form, structural capabilities and rig may be suitable for offshore cruising, its interior layout, detailing, storage provisions, and so are clearly better suited to coastal cruising. To me that is perfectly acceptable as design offered to the public as long as that is how the company portrays the design in their own literature and statements.

But I also think, where these discussions begin to address the realities of boats like these, is that it would perhaps make sense to have a model option which is biased more toward regular offshore use. Offshore bunks, compartments and openings should by necessity be smaller, and there should be solid footholds and handholds. Rigs need to be a little more robust, and carefully conceived and secure storage needs to take a higher priority.

And I contend that an offshore cruiser making three-four week hops in the Atlantic may not be the same boat as a distance voyaging yacht that crosses the vast open areas of the Pacific. Boats for circumnavigations and a Pacific crossing need to be far more independent and so place a much greater demand on carrying capacity, and storage volumes.

Jeff
Thanks Jeff for being able to say it properly. Your last paragraph to me is important. I believe you have it right and boats like the HR 416 are perfect boats to do the Atlantic run just as Hinkley's are made for the Atlantic run. Both of those boats can handle any weather and the Atlantic can put out some of the worst in weather.

But for long distant cruising life is far better in a sailing vessel that carries more fuel, water and has better storage than those two types of boats.
When I sailed through the pacific and indonessia 40 years ago 32 ft was fine, no storage, little fuel, little water. Life sailing meant a lot of time worrying about finding such items. Now a days you just don't have to always be looking to the next squall for rain or the next 55 gallon drum of maybe bad fuel and you don't have to worry much about all the gerry cans, outboards, surfboards and the inflatable on deck anymore on a lot of the modern designs. The modern boat gives cruisers more time to enjoy the passage safely, to spend more time learning about the cultures one gets to visit but most important to me is my boat is clean and safe day to day. When you are gone sailing for 4 to 7 years at a time you can get pretty tired of a cluttered boat. Believe me unless you have been there you may not understand what a cluttered boat is like.

So my guess is HR has decided more folks cruise for a week or four than go for long distances over years of time. They know the market and hopefully they make money because they make a good boat but they don't make a good long distance cruiser by having poor exterior storage because they try and open up the bow and stern for more dock and anchorage living space. They are no longer as beefy as maybe they once were.

It's a good debate, I'd like to hear from others on what makes a good boat for how they cruise. Experience please so we can get ideas, cruising should be at least a month at a time on your boat so you know what makes things work for you.

Cheers.
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  #3438  
Old 01-27-2013
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Halberg Rassy 412

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
I think that the discussion about the HR 416 goes to the heart of much of the diversity of opinion about "What is a Blue water boat?".
While the hull form, structural capabilities and rig may be suitable for offshore cruising, its interior layout, detailing, storage provisions, and so are clearly better suited to coastal cruising. To me that is perfectly acceptable as design offered to the public as long as that is how the company portrays the design in their own literature and statements.
I am not sure I follow. We are talking about the HR 412? The structural capabilities and rig are suitable for offshore cruising, not “may be”. HR are known for their structural capabilities and also to be heavier boats with more ballast than lighter cruisers. The boat weights 11 100kg with a 4000kg ballast while the typical mass production 40ft cruiser has between 7500 and 9000kg with a ballast that goes from 2500 to less than 3000kg. The B/D ratio is 36% in a bulbed keel with a 1.99m draft. That puts the boat in what regards stiffness in the performance cruiser class and the sailing results are very good providing there is enough wind to overcome the extra weight.

In fact they say : “Thus far, the Swedes from Ellos only had the HR 40 with centre cockpit, which is said to remain in production. But now there’s also the new, sportier aft-cockpit version, which puts less emphasis on long-distance cruising.”

But of course this is just commercial publicity that has to do with the Halberg-Rassy maintaining the more traditional clients that see in a center cockpit a better blue water boat. That is just publicity designed not to take costumers away from the 40cc while they try to get new type of costumers for the Aft cabin boat (they make the two).

In fact the 40 HRcc that is advertised as “ a long distance cruiser of highest quality from the Swedish island Orust” is slightly lighter and has just more 100kg of ballast but if we compare both curves we will see a not very different AVS ( 124º to 130º) but a substantially better GZ and much more RM on the 412 ( 7391kgm at 30º and 9829kgm as maxRM at 64.9) versus the 40CC ( 5000kgm at 30º and 7200Kgm as MaxRm at 65º).




The much more substantial stability and stifness on the Aft cockpit boat is due to a bigger beam ( 4.11m to 3.82m) and also to a more modern designed keel with a lower CG.

There is not a single reason to advertise the 40cc as a long distance cruiser and the 412 as a boat that puts less emphasis on long-distance cruising. In fact the only advantage of the CC is giving the possibility of a king's aft cabin at the cost of more windage and a more uncomfortable motion for the crew.

Regarding outside and inside storage in fact the two cabin version of the 412 offers a much better storage capacity, outside and inside, than any of the only two versions of the 40cc, both 2 cabin versions:




A boat with a better storage capacity and a boat with a bigger stability is only advertised as a boat that but less emphasis on long-distance cruising for not driving the traditional costumers of the CC boat away. The boat remains in production and that big aft cabin is what many customers want and the CC image is the traditional HR image that is associated with a blue water boat and they don't want to risk that, I mean the image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
But I also think, where these discussions begin to address the realities of boats like these, is that it would perhaps make sense to have a model option which is biased more toward regular offshore use. Offshore bunks, compartments and openings should by necessity be smaller, and there should be solid footholds and handholds. Rigs need to be a little more robust, and carefully conceived and secure storage needs to take a higher priority.
Here I don’t understand. The boat has offshore bunks (the two bunks in the saloon) and there are solid handholds everywhere:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
And I contend that an offshore cruiser making three-four week hops in the Atlantic may not be the same boat as a distance voyaging yacht that crosses the vast open areas of the Pacific. Boats for circumnavigations and a Pacific crossing need to be far more independent and so place a much greater demand on carrying capacity, and storage volumes.
Yes I agree, that’s why the HR 412 two cabin version is more adapted to long distance cruising than the HR CC40 since it offers a better stability and a much bigger storage space.

It seems that I was not clear. My comments about the 412 lack of storage regard only the three cabin version. And that one in my book is not even fit for coastal cruising. As I have said the boat has not space to carry the fenders on the cockpit lockers. The lockers are really shallow to provide more interior space.

The boat has not the outside storage to carry what is needed even for proper coastal cruising. That is pretty ridiculous in a boat with obvious bluewater potential. I guess that they should not have made a 3 cabins version, but then there are probably some that will use the boat mostly at the marina and for weekend sailing and that will be enough for them. After all I see lots of boats sailing with the fenders over the deck and that is true that the 3 cabin interior really looks big on the boat show.

Regards

Paulo
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  #3439  
Old 01-27-2013
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Re: Vendee Globe

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Paulo, Did Mike and Alex swap boats?

What a finish! Not only the first and second "duel", but also the third and fourth places.

Regarding the comparison to the VOR, I think it's two very different events, and although the VG s more sailor-hero-oriented, which is fine, there is nothing like the roadshow that the VOR puts on, with a visiting tour. I don't think a nonstop race will ever draw more crowd than a destination-focused tour, which promotes tourism and thus a greater overall public effect. I'm watching the live feed of the VG first finish, and there is not even 8,000 people watching. I am surprised by such a low number.

Regards to all,

Hans
Well, they are both English... Just said Mike when I wanted to say Alex

But the important is that a kid that dreamed with winning the Vendee Globe since he was 5 years old had made his dream true, and not an easy one.


La remontée du chenal de François Gabart por VendeeGlobeTV

Meanwhile Jean-Pierre is looking for more clement conditions near the Portuguese coast but the truth is that he will get 30K winds when he passes Finisterra cape. I hope it will turn out alright for him. 30K on the Biscay is not a pleasant prospect even with a keel

Regards

Paulo
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  #3440  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo,

Salon berths can be the best berth on a boat in bad weather. But they are not suitable for cruising every day. Let me please explain, When you are on a 20 to 26 day passage the last thing you want if you can help it is folks who begin to smell really bad after 3 days in tropical heat sleeping in the salon. Also the salon being a sleeping berth means pillows, sheets, blankets have to be stored somewhere then taken back out every time that person sleeping there is off watch. I know some here are saying that is what sailing is all about but when things are smelly and dirty everyday on a boat one gets tired really easy. On any boat 37 feet and longer there should be good sea berths aft and good exterior storage aft that can be reached from above and not walking through the cabin to get to it.

As for making one of the two aft berths into a storage area. I'd rather see it a work room than a storage area. By the way you just can't have both storage and work area, what a mess that is, been there done that. But even if you use the 2nd aft berth as a full time storage area you end up with a mess in no time at all. Seems like every time you want something it is behind 3 sail bags that you have pull out and dump in the salon till you find what you are looking for. That may not sound bad but do it day after day and it gets old. There are better ways than using the 3rd berth as a storage area. Exterior stowage is great because when open you are looking down at every thing you have in there and should be easier to get at unless you over fill the area with junk. On the 412 I still see no exterior deep lazerettes anywhere in the cockpit or on the stern. Just a 3rd aft berth pushed all the way out to the aft end of the boat. They could have taken 2/3 of a meter off the berth and still had plenty of berth I bet for an ocean going vessel.

But again that is not what HR is looking for anymore they are now looking for a boat to run down to the Med or the Canary's, maybe make the crossing maybe not. Its a safe boat in most ways just not as well designed as other boats.
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