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  #3441  
Old 01-27-2013
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Hr 412

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Hi Paulo,

Salon berths can be the best berth on a boat in bad weather. But they are not suitable for cruising every day. Let me please explain, When you are on a 20 to 26 day passage the last thing you want if you can help it is folks who begin to smell really bad after 3 days in tropical heat sleeping in the salon. Also the salon being a sleeping berth means pillows, sheets, blankets have to be stored somewhere then taken back out every time that person sleeping there is off watch. I know some here are saying that is what sailing is all about but when things are smelly and dirty everyday on a boat one gets tired really easy. On any boat 37 feet and longer there should be good sea berths aft and good exterior storage aft that can be reached from above and not walking through the cabin to get to it.
This is not a big boat for going bluewater and do extensive cruising. I would say that a crew of 2 or 3 is the more adequate to do it.

On this type of relatively small boats the better sea berths were always the saloon berths. They are the ones at the center of the boat and the ones with less sea motion. You are exaggerating regarding the mess. I use a kind of sheet that can involve completely the seat (for protection) and sleep on a personal sheet light bag. Never used the system for more then 10 days but it works perfectly. I know of many guys that use a similar arrangement to cross oceans.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post

As for making one of the two aft berths into a storage area. I'd rather see it a work room than a storage area. By the way you just can't have both storage and work area, what a mess that is, been there done that. But even if you use the 2nd aft berth as a full time storage area you end up with a mess in no time at all. Seems like every time you want something it is behind 3 sail bags that you have pull out and dump in the salon till you find what you are looking for. That may not sound bad but do it day after day and it gets old. There are better ways than using the 3rd berth as a storage area.

Exterior stowage is great because when open you are looking down at every thing you have in there and should be easier to get at unless you over fill the area with junk. On the 412 I still see no exterior deep lazerettes anywhere in the cockpit or on the stern. Just a 3rd aft berth pushed all the way out to the aft end of the boat. They could have taken 2/3 of a meter off the berth and still had plenty of berth I bet for an ocean going vessel.

But again that is not what HR is looking for anymore they are now looking for a boat to run down to the Med or the Canary's, maybe make the crossing maybe not. Its a safe boat in most ways just not as well designed as other boats.
I guess that there is some confusion here. The Two Cabin HR has not a 3th cabin. It has a big locker that can be accessed from the cockpit and eventually through the interior by the head. The boat has not a working space, unless it is modified to have one since the space is there.

What the 2 cabin boat has it is just a big storage space. that should not come as a surprise because it is a common solution used in many cruisers that offer a big storage space at the cost of the third cabin.

As I have said, I like better the XC 42 but I would not consider the boat badly designed, except in what regards an unpractical three cabin versions. In what regards hull design, rig and as a sailingboat the HR have been improving a lot. You have just to look at those two stability curves to see it, not only in speed but also in safety.

For instance, with the boat knocked out at 90º the RM at 90º on the 412 is 7000kgF*m while on the older 40CC is only making 5500KgF*m.

They are as seaworthy or more than before and are not slow boats anymore and point quite well. I call that quite an improvement

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-27-2013 at 10:13 PM.
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Re: Hanse 415/HR 412

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Regarding the Hanse 415, from the photos it seemed to me that the boat had finally a better quality interior and I mean mostly in what regards design. Well, it has not and the boat exposed was of particular bad taste in what regards color combinations.



It is a shame. Dehler that is from the same group had already managed to sort out the interior design problem and I am sure they contracted a good specialized interior designer to design the 38 interior. I don't understand why Hanse doesn't do the same. Makes no sense. I guess that the guy that is in charge of Hanse is not very sensible to that (not to say that he as an uneducated taste) and he is not able to see that the boats have a problem on that area.

Besides that the storage space is very scarce. They made the interior aft cabins high at the cost of the interior space of the lateral cockpit lockers that are small and the boat has not any other meaningful storage space on the cockpit. Simply you will not have the space to store the fenders inside. On this boat, contrary to the Jeanneau 409, you cannot have a three cabin boat unless you use the boat only for week-end cruising.

About the HR 412, I visited the boat with my daughter that is almost a graduate in design, to show her a boat with a quality interior. Well, she was not impressed at all, neither me. The quality is good but probably not as good as on a Solaris 37 that we had visited previously and the design quality is just vulgar while on the Solaris is outstanding.

The overall design of the boat is also of average quality and I men cabin and cockpit and even my daughter noticed that. The only thing that stands out is the aluminum fixed spraywood that looked as good as ever.

But most of all what was really odd was the lack of storage space on the cockpit, a bit like the Hanse. You just don't have space for taking the fenders in and that is ridiculous in my opinion. Many shipyards have been investing too much in interior space, the one most people notice most on the boat shows, at the cost of outside storage and functionality in what regards cruising.

I was not expecting Halberg-Rassy to be one of them. My boat or the Salona 41 have incomparably more outside storage space than the HR 412. Both boats can be used for cruising with a 3 cabins set-up, not the HR 412, that is like the Hanse 415 strictly a 2 cabin boat in what regards cruising, I mean, not week-end cruising.

I find that unacceptable on a 12.6m boat, specially if it is a main stream cruiser and not a performance boat like the Salona 41 or the Comet 41.




Saying that, I am quite sure that both boats are good sailing boats, or even very good sailing boats (taking into consideration their type) in all other aspects and that's why I was disappointed.

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo

Thanks for all the feedback. As ever no punches pulled but that what makes this such a great thread.

A few things though.

- Design Unlimited were responsible for the interior design in my Hanse 350. Hanse do seem to have contracted an outside specialist. You obviously feel that it is more Design Limited than Design Unlimited
- Colour combinations - I am not sure what combos were shown at the Dusseldorf boat show, but most of the combos I have seen involve grey, natural sandy colors, stainless steel and white. Dufour, Jeanneau and many others have opted for this which I personally really like. As the French say though "on discute des gouts et des couleurs" which basically means that these are down to personal taste
- quality of workmanship. Are we sure that we are making a valid comparison here. Comparing a boat that costs a third of another is hardly a valid comparison. Hanse 415 versus Halberg Rassy 412 is no comparison as much as I love my Hanse. Most Hanse owners are more interested in the hull strength with GRP strong back, stability, good design from Judel Vrolijk, the rig which is now from Selden and Lewmar.. And of course speed. The Hanse motto is easy sailing, fast sailing which I think is an accurate summary
- storage. I agree with your comments absolutely. We sail with our fenders on the deck because of a lack of space and I don't want to store them down below. Not the safest and not ideal but acceptable for coastal hopping. The solution on a 35 foot yacht is to have 2 berths instead of 3 and to be able to access the storage area from the cockpit as well as from the head as is the norm. This is a perfectly acceptable solution for coastal sailing IMHO. I don't have any experience to comment on whether this works for long distance cruising. I have seen some very well organized storage areas in boats that have been set up like this.
- A 2 berth Hanse 415 would solve all of the storage issues and would be perfect for coastal hopping. On the other hand, the big brands are designing boats for coastal cruising and the charter market. The emphasis here is on comfort at anchorage and in a marina and in this regard I think they have got it right albeit by sacrificing storage. Compromise compromise ...
- Water tight compartment near the rudder. A brilliant idea and I would prefer to have one for sure. However, again if we are comparing Hanse with Dufour, with Jeanneau with Beneteau with Bavaria, do they have a watertight compartment in this area? I am asking the question because I don't know. If the answer is yes and Hanse are lacking in this area, you can be sure that I will throw the cat amongst the pigeons in our forum.

Chapeau to Francois. An unbelievable achievement. The Mount Everest of yachting and then some. What these folks know about yachts compared to my knowledge leaves me feeling like an absolute beginner.

Cheers

David

Last edited by daviid; 01-28-2013 at 02:56 AM.
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Re: Hanse 415/HR 412

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

Thanks for all the feedback. As ever no punches pulled but that what makes this such a great thread.

A few things though.

- Design Unlimited were responsible for the interior design in my Hanse 350. Hanse do seem to have contracted an outside specialist. You obviously feel that it is more Design Limited than Design Unlimited
- Colour combinations - I am not sure what combos were shown at the Dusseldorf boat show, but most of the combos I have seen involve grey, natural sandy colors, stainless steel and white. Dufour, Jeanneau and many others have opted for this which I personally really like. As the French say though "on discute des gouts et des couleurs" which basically means that these are down to personal taste
- quality of workmanship. Are we sure that we are making a valid comparison here. Comparing a boat that costs a third of another is hardly a valid comparison. Hanse 415 versus Halberg Rassy 412 is no comparison as much as I love my Hanse.
Hi David. I am not comparing the Hanse with the Halberg-Rassy. They appeared together because both boats presented at Dusselforf disappointed me and not for the same reasons. They disappointed me because I had high hopes on both boats and in the Hanse case it was the possibility of its interior being of better design quality than the previous Hanse and that is not the case.

Regarding materials and color schemes, I am looking at it with the eyes of a professional in the area. I am used to give people what they want in regards tastes that are not necessarily mine but other thing is the quality in design choices and color combinations. The model that I saw had just an unacceptably bad quality on the color scheme. Not to do with my particular preference for that scheme...it was just wrong. Besides the interior wood was looking more Ikea than never and really did not even looked like wood but some plastic imitation of wood.

Again I am not comparing with the HR but with previous Hanse and other boats on the same category like Oceanis, Bavaria, Jeanneau or Dufour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post

Most Hanse owners are more interested in the hull strength with GRP strong back, stability, good design from Judel Vrolijk, the rig which is now from Selden and Lewmar.. And of course speed. The Hanse motto is easy sailing, fast sailing which I think is an accurate summary...

- Water tight compartment near the rudder. A brilliant idea and I would prefer to have one for sure. However, again if we are comparing Hanse with Dufour, with Jeanneau with Beneteau with Bavaria, do they have a watertight compartment in this area? I am asking the question because I don't know. If the answer is yes and Hanse are lacking in this area, you can be sure that I will throw the cat amongst the pigeons in our forum.
David, I like many things on Hanse, specially regarding stability. It is one of the most seaworthy boats in its class and it is just because I like many things that I am pissed and disappointed that they cannot manage to put the rest of their act together.

The interior lack of quality in design is an example, they no longer offered an epoxy option on the hull is another and regarding to water tight bulkheads (protecting a possible rudder water ingress) each boat is a case and I don't know what models have them but I know that for Instance all Salonas have them, my boat too and I think Elans and Dehlers too. Not sure about the others. it is not that difficult or expensive and it is a big safety feature. I remember some years back a brand new Hanse 37 went under quickly because it had broken the rudder (water ingress) and had not a waterproof bulkhead.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo

Thanks for keeping the thread alive once again

Have a look here

Hanse 415 - reviews, opinions, videos - myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum

Cheers

David
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A crazy guy and an impressive achievement.

A non stop circumnavigation against the prevailing winds with a relatively small and old boat:

Well this guy is maybe a bit mad (223 days alone) but its performance is impressive. Only 6 sailors had managed to do that before and he is the first to make it with a production boat, with the smaller one and most of all without engine, relying only on solar panels for electricity.

CHAPEAU to Stéphane Narvaez





TEAMDEFIS - Défis GEC - Défis 4SMS - "Il n'y a pas de liberté sans risque, sans ignorance, sans aventure."

The boat is a very interesting boat, an upwind boat and a boat able to sail in very light winds (narrow, light and with a lot of ballast), a Sharp 47.

The Sharp 47 is a Guy RIBADEAU-DUMAS design from the 80's, a very narrow aluminium (2.8m) sailboat and also very light (3400kg) with a 1.95m of draft.

http://www.stephanedefis.com/web_ima...bache_01_1.jpg



He bought the boat in bad shape for 15 000 euros in 2010 and took about a year and a half to put it in good shape, with the help of fiends.

Here you can have a look at his boat:

MOVIE:

Visite d'Oïkos, le Sharp 47 de Stéphane Narvaez

You can find some in better shape on the used market for about 50 000 euros:



SHARP 47 ULDB ALU-1984-55 000-LEGUEN HEMIDY- XBOAT, your neXt BOAT ? annonces de vedettes et voiliers d?occasion à vendre

Last edited by PCP; 01-28-2013 at 07:45 AM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Daviid & Paulo,

I haven't heard people criticize the lack of storage for fenders before - but I totally agree. Our latest boat - Southerly 49 has a large forward "sail" locker but we use it mainly for fenders. When we put to sea we have no fenders out on deck - and we carry a lot of fenders! 4 very large tube fenders, 4 large tubes and 2 smaller. All stowed in the locker.

Paul Shard
SV Distant Shores II - Southerly 49 Swing-keel
Distant Shores II
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Our current boat is a Southerly 49 - a "swing-keel" sailboat that draws less than 3 feet with the keel up. This summer we took the mast down and went right across France via the Seine, Paris and the small locks to the Med - 179 locks in all.

However she is also a good offshore sailing boat and also this past fall we took part in the ARC Rally for Cruisers crossing the Atlantic in just 15.5 days. With the keel all the way down we draw 10'4". The keel weighs in at a hefty 2,000kg so she sails quite well upwind. For the tradewind crossing with the ARC we swung the keel much of the way up. Then the boat really likes going downwind since the center of lateral resistance moves aft as you swing up the keel. I think we were one of the very few boats in the ARC that could do both the French canals and a transatlantic passage in 15,5 days... but I'm biased
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Dusseldorf's most impressive boat:

Ok, there was there some big boats, big Oysters and a big and nicer Contest but the boat that really impressed me was this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Take a look at this babie:















This boat looks so beautiful that one wonders if this is not going to be one of those very nice designs that never see the light of the day. The Project was announced some years ago and I thought that it was going to be the case.

I was wrong. They say the boat is going to be presented in Dusseldorf. Uau!!!!, I am not going to miss this one

The boat is not only beautiful as also its specifications are incredibly good in what concerns a seaworthy and incredibly powerful boat, one that uses a lifting torpedo keel that allows those performance while permitting a reasonable draft for cruising.

This is a Botin Carkeek & Partners 45ft design, the boat is made with carbon using infusion with mast and boom in carbon. It can have a variable draft (1.75 to 2.75 meters). Weight is only 8.0 tons, and almost half of it is on the ballast. It is a moderately beamed boat, much on the line of Italian performance boats.

SPECIFICATIONS
LOA 13.72 m
LWL 12.94 m
Bmax 4.15 m
Displacement - Lightship 8000 kgs
Draft (up/dwn) 1.75/2.75 m
Upwind Sail Area 122.1 m2
Downwind Sail Area 259.8 m2

This is not one of those adventure projects that are made by some very small and amateurish companies that make a prototype and die. This boat is being built by Premier Composite Technologies a big company specialized on top composite technologies in several sectors and with a lot of naval experience. They build for designers like Farr, Botin-Carkeek, Judel-Vrolijk, Jason Ker and Mark Mills. they have built the Landmark 43, the Ker 53, the JV40, the Farr 11’s and the Farr400. Maybe the reason that allows them to offer this boat to a very interesting price, about 500 000 Euros, is possibly related with the use of a big industrialized set up in what regards composites.

They say about the boat:

Premier Composite Technologies flagship model, the Premier 45, is a fast, high performance, short handed cruiser.

Designed by Botin-Carkeek, designers of the Team New Zealand TP52, the Premier 45 is built for speed with a carbon fibre and foam cored hull. Featuring a lifting keel and a modern, stylish - yet comfortable - interior, the Premier 45 is the ultimate cruising racer.

Generous upwind and downwind sail area provide the horsepower for class leading performance whilst low displacement and wetted surface area ensure the Premier 45 is easily driven whatever the conditions. The hull design has been developed to excel in downwind conditions and maintain stable handling in waves when further offshore. Carefully optimized foil designs mean the Premier 45 tacks swiftly and maintains excellent low speed manoeuvrability during the pre-start.

Premier Composite Technologies has succeeded in combining a true racing pedigree with all the practicalities required for a great short handed cruising yacht.


....
45ft and the same weight as my 41, that is not heavy, well, its just great but its was not only that but a good finish and an interior that really permits cruising, in fact a nice one even if that huge saloon, with good holdings on the cabin top has a galley where it would be impossible to work on with the boat on the wrong tack. Well, you can always change tack for cooking

Anyway the boat has a lifting keel, very well integrated on the boat and a draft with the keel up of only 1.75m. It as also a storage adequate for cruising including tankage, Howw!!! That would be like a sea autocaravan that in fact is a Ferrari.

Just beautiful, I would like very much to get a ride on that boat that certainly has an awesome pointing ability and one that will make going against the wind almost as fast as the speed many cruisers are able to do downwind, I don't mean fast ones, just old ones

Some pictures of the boat at the boatshow:





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Re: Halberg Rassy 412

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
We are talking about the HR 412? The structural capabilities and rig are suitable for offshore cruising, not “may be”.
Paulo, we are not in disagreement. You are reacting in this case to colloquial English, in which the term 'may be' is intended to acknowledge the "given's" before addressing the contrasting point. The use of the term 'may be' in my sentence was not meant to suggest that the hull, structure and rig of the Halberg Rassey 412 was not structurally suited to offshore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
[Regarding outside and inside storage in fact the two cabin version of the 412 offers a much better storage capacity, outside and inside, than any of the only two versions of the 40cc, both 2 cabin versions:
You are right. I was trying to use the contrast in layout between the two and three cabin layout, as an example of why a boat may be capable of going offshore, but not necessarily optimized for going offshore.




Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
A boat with a better storage capacity and a boat with a bigger stability is only advertised as a boat that but less emphasis on long-distance cruising for not driving the traditional costumers of the CC boat away. The boat remains in production and that big aft cabin is what many customers want and the CC image is the traditional HR image that is associated with a blue water boat and they don't want to risk that, I mean the image.:
I was not intending to comment on the specifics of how this boat was marketed, but more on how I think that companies should think about their products and market them fairly. My point is that I have no problem with a company building a boat which is clearly biased towards simple coastal cruising in terms of trading off storage for other amenities. My only point is that when a company does that, it needs to be clear in its marketing that this version of the model is not as optimized for offshore cruising as it might be.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Here I don’t understand. The boat has offshore bunks (the two bunks in the saloon) and there are solid handholds everywhere:



:
With regards to the interior images, this is an great example demonstrating a boat which can be taken offshore, vs one that has been optimized for going offshore. When I look at the layout, there should be dedicated seaberths. While its true that leecloths can be added to make a berth function as a seaberth, its a whole lot nicer to actually have berths that are proportioned to sleeping at sea vs developed around the widths needed for seating.

Hand holds should be nearly continous and at a height between 30 or so degrees above and below shoulder height with the arm fully extended. When you look at the span of the table and settees there is not suitable height grab bars. (Ergonomically, overhead handgrips are a dislocated shoulder going somewhere to happen.)

Similarly, ideally for offshore there should be footholds and some form of non-skid on the decking. Shiny varnished cabin soles are a death trap in wet boat shoes and unless the carpet can be held down, so is carpet. Some of the Beneteaus used a neat deck material with small, raised, rubber stipes instead of holly. Like some New Zealand and South African boats that I have seen, a simpler solution is to varnish in 1 cm non-skid strips every 3 cm or so.

Items like ports in the hull, and the comparatively light duty window framing is also suspect in extreme going.

This cabin is has a number or loose lids with finger holes as locker tops on cabinet. That is usually okay for most coastal sailing, but become projectiles offshore and so should have ways to secure the locker and lid. Sliding doors can be made to work offshore, but are not the most reliable solution as well.

The point is not to criticize this particular boat. She looks well constructed and suitable for her intended use. My point that I was trying to make is that there is a next step to optimizing a boat like this for offshore cruising which frankly does not appear to have been done here.

And that goes to the heart of the frequent conversations about the difference between being offshore capable vs what makes an ideal offshore yacht, vs what makes an ideal distance cruiser.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-28-2013 at 02:10 PM.
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Talking Southerly 49

Quote:
Originally Posted by distantshores View Post
Hi Daviid & Paulo,

I haven't heard people criticize the lack of storage for fenders before - but I totally agree. Our latest boat - Southerly 49 has a large forward "sail" locker but we use it mainly for fenders. When we put to sea we have no fenders out on deck - and we carry a lot of fenders! 4 very large tube fenders, 4 large tubes and 2 smaller. All stowed in the locker.

Our current boat is a Southerly 49 - a "swing-keel" sailboat that draws less than 3 feet with the keel up. This summer we took the mast down and went right across France via the Seine, Paris and the small locks to the Med - 179 locks in all.

However she is also a good offshore sailing boat and also this past fall we took part in the ARC Rally for Cruisers crossing the Atlantic in just 15.5 days. With the keel all the way down we draw 10'4". The keel weighs in at a hefty 2,000kg so she sails quite well upwind. For the tradewind crossing with the ARC we swung the keel much of the way up. Then the boat really likes going downwind since the center of lateral resistance moves aft as you swing up the keel. I think we were one of the very few boats in the ARC that could do both the French canals and a transatlantic passage in 15,5 days... but I'm biased

Paul Shard
SV Distant Shores II - Southerly 49 Swing-keel
Distant Shores II
Thanks for the nice pictures. Well, it seems that we are already two. My boat as a forward sail locker too and I also prefer to keep the fenders there.

Certainly not many boats can go fast and have the ability to do the French canals or to be beached but among the regulars of this thread you have at least three with boats that can do that: Anders that has an Opium 39, Eric that has a Pogo 12.50 and hannah that is waiting for a Boreal 44

I find the Southerly 49 a very beautiful boat and one that manages perfectly to integrate the height needed for the deck saloon in an overall elegant line.

A great design by Rob Humphreys, one of the better, a design that has already some years and looks as contemporary as when it was launched.

He says about the boat:

The design brief was very specific – to build a powerful, sleek and stunning yacht, with blue water cruising capabilities, for continuous long distance sailing, around the world. Shallow draft was an essential feature. The ‘easy to handle’ sailing characteristics of the Southerly 42RST were necessary, but on a longer waterline length for fast ocean passage making.

Humphreys Yacht Design was responsible for the design of the hull, rig, keel and sail plan. This blue water cruiser offers the latest thinking in cruising yacht design. The hull is characterised by a long waterline, fine entry and beam carried aft to ensure the highest degree of performance, stability and safety. The Southerly 49 is primarily designed for a high cruising specification, with easy handling, and can be sailed by just two people.

As with all Southerly’s, the semi balanced twin rudders give instantly responsive steering and precise directional stability.







Regards

Paulo
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