Interesting Sailboats - Page 356 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #3551  
Old 02-09-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Some questions:

I guess you have a winchard tensioner. What is the model?

What kind of links you have between the sail and the stay? A traditional metal clip on system or a textile connection?

You have a reef on that jib?
I think this is a very good plan, Paulo. Your Comet 41 S also carries a lot of sail and even with a well designed roll-reefable foresail, there comes a moment when you just want a very strong and flat sail on an inner forestay that also brings the sailplan down and away from the bow.

But the system we have does not involve a quick release type of tensioner.
The textile (12 mm dyneema) inner forestay has a looped end that connects with a rope and tackle fitted on the bulkhead in the anchor/sail locker/crash box. This tackled rope comes back on the foredeck and first runs through a clutch (remote controlled from the cockpit with an thin line) to the piano, to be tensioned by the winch on the coachroof but without this enormous tension kept between the clutch on the foredeck and the piano in the cockpit.

Somewhat complicated to explain but quite straightforward to use. The main issue is: tackle + winch allow quite a lot of tension on the inner forestay, which I think is important when things get though.
I would be glad to take and post some pictures to make this more clear, but the whole set-up is now completely dismantled for winter storage .

So I hope the V&V video (posted earlier by Paulo) will help understanding how it works.
Fast-forward to the very end (presentation of the foredeck) and you will see the (temporary) forestay, the tensioning rope and the remote controlled clutches (the second one is used to give the same amount of tension to the bowsprit). Then just imagine all these lines coming back to the piano.
Pogo 12,50 : rapide, dans les grandes largeurs

Anyway, as soon as we expect strong and contrary winds, we rig the inner forestay and the staysail in its bag ready for use. Beforehand and preferably at port. Because whatever the configuration, it’s always a heavy sail to bring forward and a hell of a job to rig the whole thing on a rocking foredeck .
But not permanently, because the inner forestay is a real pain in the (BEEP!) to tack the solent in normal conditions .

Our sail has regular metal clips, Paulo. Given the conditions within the staysail is used, I think this is the best solution.
Yes, the staysail has a reef. Although we never used it yet , I think it would be a pity not to provide this when things go really bad. But having to go out there and reef this sail is one of my favorite nightmares .

Best regards,

Eric

Last edited by EricKLYC; 02-09-2013 at 10:14 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3552  
Old 02-09-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Have you ever tried to sail with keel up? I am often limited to 2.00m...
Thanks, Robelz.

We're also frequently restrained by draft, even to be able to leave Nieuwpoort . But we always keep the keel completely up (1m20) until we reach open (and sufficiently deep) water before hoisting the sails.

Not because of stability, Paulo already posted very reassuring curves even with the keel up . But this very deep (3m) and slim keel is only sufficiently stable when it's head is firmly holded within its hull case.

This is just a matter of design: the keel is not supposed to take the strain under sail unless it is completely down, otherwise it could whobble. But once you get used to take attention to this, it only takes to push the right button to switch from shallow to deep draft .

Best regards,

Eric

Last edited by EricKLYC; 02-09-2013 at 10:00 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3553  
Old 02-10-2013
bjung's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Blue Ridge
Posts: 473
Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
bjung is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Thanks, Robelz.

We're also frequently restrained by draft, even to be able to leave Nieuwpoort . But we always keep the keel completely up (1m20) until we reach open (and sufficiently deep) water before hoisting the sails.

Not because of stability, Paulo already posted very reassuring curves even with the keel up . But this very deep (3m) and slim keel is only sufficiently stable when it's head is firmly holded within its hull case.

This is just a matter of design: the keel is not supposed to take the strain under sail unless it is completely down, otherwise it could whobble. But once you get used to take attention to this, it only takes to push the right button to switch from shallow to deep draft .

Best regards,

Eric
Eric,
Thanks for the very informative and honest reviews of your Pogo.
Do I understand you correctly, that the Pogo should only be sailed with the keel completely down (3m draft?)?
Bernd
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3554  
Old 02-10-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Solo sailing

Some fantastic piece of video posted by Stamm recently where he appears to be an amateur. of course it is not the case, he is one of the best, just look at this video from an old 2001 Atlantic transat record:



What happened on this video was a problem with the autopilot and one, that he know now, persisted all race. It is quite amazing that with a fundamental piece of material working with problems he would have had the confidence to drive the boat as hard as he had done (he lead the race and was a long time fighting for the lead).

This happened on the first days of the race, offshore Portugal and he explains what happened:

with the running minutes on the movie:

1:00

Bernard is running downwind at 25 knots boatspeed under main and small spinnaker. There is a problem with his starboard hydrogenerator and he starts the cockpit video recorder to show him going over the back of the boat to disconnect it.

1:18

At this moment, the autopilot unexpectedly switches off and the boat accidentally gybes, putting the spinnaker on the wrong side, pinning the boom against the runner and the boat lays flat in the water and stops. "Lucky I didn't break anything," says Bernard. "That was a miracle."

1:46

He goes to release the runner, but remembers that he has used the runner tail temporarily to lash on the hydrogenerator he'd been working on, so he has to climb up to untie it first. Meanwhile, you can hear the autopilot off-course alarm going off.

3:18

Bernard manages to ease the backstay. The sail stacked outboard is his genoa, which was fastened on, but not very tightly. The boat begins to move and you see Bernard steering, while also trying to operate the canting keel, which is on the wrong side. You hear the motor for that beginning at 4:05 and gradually the boat begins to come upright and tear off again downwind.

05:56

Another brief accidental gybe. This happened "three or four times" that afternoon.

07:05

Bernard says he's wondering here what's going on. "It was about an hour before I could stabilise the pilot enough to find a way to get it to steer while I got on the phone to the shore team to tell them we had a real problem we needed to sort out or I would not get past Portugal," he explains.

His autopilot problems persisted all the way round the world. "We solved a lot of problems, but we never got the real one. There must have been a bug," he says.


Accidental gybe - laid flat | Yachting World



Quand les ennuis commençaient à bord de... por VendeeGlobeTV
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-10-2013 at 09:17 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3555  
Old 02-10-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Do I understand you correctly, that the Pogo should only be sailed with the keel completely down (3m draft?)?
Bernd
That's correct, Bernd. Only when the keel is completely down, the head is perfectly stable in the keelbox. And I must say it then does not give a kick, even in the worst conditions.

Best regards,

Eric
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3556  
Old 02-10-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hood River
Posts: 310
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 3
hannah2 is on a distinguished road
Re: Solo sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Some fantastic piece of video posted by Stamm recently where he appears to be an amateur. of course it is not the case, he is one of the best, just look at this video from an old 2001 Atlantic transat record:



What happened on this video was a problem with the autopilot and one, that he know now, persisted all race. It is quite amazing that with a fundamental piece of material working with problems he would have had the confidence to drive the boat as hard as he had done (he lead the race and was a long time fighting for the lead).

This happened on the first days of the race, offshore Portugal and he explains what happened:

with the running minutes on the movie:

1:00

Bernard is running downwind at 25 knots boatspeed under main and small spinnaker. There is a problem with his starboard hydrogenerator and he starts the cockpit video recorder to show him going over the back of the boat to disconnect it.

1:18

At this moment, the autopilot unexpectedly switches off and the boat accidentally gybes, putting the spinnaker on the wrong side, pinning the boom against the runner and the boat lays flat in the water and stops. "Lucky I didn't break anything," says Bernard. "That was a miracle."

1:46

He goes to release the runner, but remembers that he has used the runner tail temporarily to lash on the hydrogenerator he'd been working on, so he has to climb up to untie it first. Meanwhile, you can hear the autopilot off-course alarm going off.

3:18

Bernard manages to ease the backstay. The sail stacked outboard is his genoa, which was fastened on, but not very tightly. The boat begins to move and you see Bernard steering, while also trying to operate the canting keel, which is on the wrong side. You hear the motor for that beginning at 4:05 and gradually the boat begins to come upright and tear off again downwind.

05:56

Another brief accidental gybe. This happened "three or four times" that afternoon.

07:05

Bernard says he's wondering here what's going on. "It was about an hour before I could stabilise the pilot enough to find a way to get it to steer while I got on the phone to the shore team to tell them we had a real problem we needed to sort out or I would not get past Portugal," he explains.

His autopilot problems persisted all the way round the world. "We solved a lot of problems, but we never got the real one. There must have been a bug," he says.


Accidental gybe - laid flat | Yachting World



Quand les ennuis commençaient à bord de... por VendeeGlobeTV
Great video on Bernard, I was impressed with his sailing ability, the ability to comprehend and all most instantly make corrections to a very serious problem. I know these guys are professional and they are all great sailors and great athletes. Watching the video you can see Bernard observing everything around him as he works, trying to put all that has happened into a book in his mind and sorting it all out in near perfect order.

The quick thinking and how Bernard went about fixing a serious problem shows most likely that he had thought often of things that can go wrong. One does not have to think of that exact situation before it happens to be able to solve the problem but a series of smaller problems fixed or thought deeply about that related to this type of situation.

As serious sailors and cruisers I hope we all are spending the time to go over situations that could be serious to you and your crew. Always be thinking, observing, spend time to " WHAT IF?"

Cheers

Steve
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3557  
Old 02-10-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post

But the system we have does not involve a quick release type of tensioner.
The textile (12 mm dyneema) inner forestay has a looped end that connects with a rope and tackle fitted on the bulkhead in the anchor/sail locker/crash box. This tackled rope comes back on the foredeck and first runs through a clutch (remote controlled from the cockpit with an thin line) to the piano, to be tensioned by the winch on the coachroof but without this enormous tension kept between the clutch on the foredeck and the piano in the cockpit.

Somewhat complicated to explain but quite straightforward to use. The main issue is: tackle + winch allow quite a lot of tension on the inner forestay, which I think is important when things get though.

... you will see the (temporary) forestay, the tensioning rope and the remote controlled clutches (the second one is used to give the same amount of tension to the bowsprit). Then just imagine all these lines coming back to the piano.
..
Very curious system. I never had seen anything similar.





I see the clutch, the one with a blue line that goes to a little hole and then to the tackle (inside the anchor locker). But I see also a white line coming out of the hole. What it is for?

I see also a plastic handle and a loop on the stay. I thought that it was a direct system connection, from the blue line to the stay, but then what is that blue loop on the stay and the handle what role plays in the system?



Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post

Our sail has regular metal clips, Paulo. Given the conditions within the staysail is used, I think this is the best solution.
Yes, no doubt a clip is the best system but I asked if they were made of metal because Comar sailmaker that is specialized in high tech sails and solutions was very adamant about not using metal clips on a textile stay. I had saw some textile clips but at very high prices (about 50 euros each) so I am in the process of making them for my sail. I have alredy the wood buttons that come from China and I am in the phase of buyng 6mm dyneema rope to do the lops. Something like this:



Can you talk with the guys from Pogo and their sailmaker to confirm what Comar sailmaker had said to me regarding metal clips to be inappropriate for a textile stay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Yes, the staysail has a reef. Although we never used it yet , I think it would be a pity not to provide this when things go really bad. But having to go out there and reef this sail is one of my favorite nightmares .
Regarding your favorite nightmare I have good news to you. Have a look:



You can pull the reefing line from the cockpit with that system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Anyway, as soon as we expect strong and contrary winds, we rig the inner forestay and the staysail in its bag ready for use. Beforehand and preferably at port. Because whatever the configuration, it’s always a heavy sail to bring forward and a hell of a job to rig the whole thing on a rocking foredeck .
But not permanently, because the inner forestay is a real pain in the (BEEP!) to tack the solent in normal conditions .
Yes that is the same problem in what regards rigging. Like in your boat my removable stay is pretty forward and it would make difficult tacking.

I plan to have it permanently mounted if I went out already with strong winds and in that case that is the sail I am going to hoist. If strong winds are a possibility I plan to have the sail already on deck, forward, attached to the life lines on a long bag similar to the one you have. Only if strong winds appear I will go forward, mount the stay and clip the sail in it. I guess it would gave some work but with the boat sailing with a reefed main that should not be very hard.

I guess that Jib without the reef would be good for 30/35 K wind. In fact the boat works very well with only that sail and just a bit of main or no main at all. I guess that with the reefed staysail as only sail the boat would be good for 40/45 winds. More than that I would have to put the storm sail. That should not come as a surprise and in that case I will have the Jib mounted in the stay and on the lifelines inside the long bag, ready to clip, the storm sail.

Even so it would be more difficult than cliping the jib because I would have to put the Jib on the forward sail locker and only then I would be able to clip the storm sail. I don't want to think what would be like if I had not a sail locker just in the right place. It would be very difficult to bring that big sail (the jib) to the boat interior, at least alone.

I guess this year I am going to try that system a lot since I will be sailing the Cyclades in July and August and that means a lot of days with wind over B7.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-10-2013 at 03:37 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3558  
Old 02-10-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 260
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
bb74 is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Smart to keep the tensioner on deck as opposed to another line in the mast. I like the simplicity and design. I imagine there is a pully system under the deck to distribute the pressure of the tensioner. ??

The bigger issue I see with this setup on the pogo is the sheets and the more complex system without the foresail sheet tracks. Not sure you can rig 2 lines thru these.

If there enough slack on the tensioner to lash the storm "étai" to the mast leaving room for the Genoa or do you need to drop it entirely? If you could lash it to the mast you could then set up the sheets and clip the sail from the mast (stable), and then just pull it forward off the tensioner and raise..?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3559  
Old 02-10-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
New Grand Soleil 43

This was one that I wanted to see in Dusseldorf but they had only the 39 (that looked great). The first new 43GS was on the Paris boat show and then it went to England, don't know why (probably sold).

The boat was tested by Voile and Voiliers and they only said good things about it. That's remarkable since they are French and Italians are the main competition. As expected the boat is fast even if it was the "cruising" version they have tested. There will have a more sportive version weighting 10% less, carbon mast and all. I guess that one will be a match for the Xp 44.

This one is just an wonderful performance cruiser with a very high quality interior, more cozy and with a better design than the one on the Xp 44. The price is halfway between a First 45 and a XP 44.

Even if not the fastest version this one would be fast enough for me, if I had the money:

with main and a code 0:

With 3.5K TW at 90º - 4K speed

with 6.0K TW at 110º - 6K speed

with 11.0 TW at 110º - 8.8K speed









__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-10-2013 at 09:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3560  
Old 02-10-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hood River
Posts: 310
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 3
hannah2 is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

That is a beautiful SY and it looks powerful. But, But where is the windlass and the anchor? Even I have to stop sailing once in a great while drop anchor and have a G&T or a good single malt. Oh, I see where the anchor goes, interesting indeed. I'll get used to these new designs someday.

Cheers

Last edited by hannah2; 02-10-2013 at 09:29 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (0 members and 7 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 06:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 06:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 01:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 12:32 PM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 07:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:09 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.