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  #3621  
Old 02-22-2013
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Jeanneau 469 - Bavaria Vision 46

New test and movie on the Jeanneau 469:

MOVIE:

http://tv.yacht.de/frontend_dev.php/...63d9c679e4a55f

I had read several test sails about this boat and they are all unanimous in stating that this is a great cruiser. You can read the one that refers to the movie downloading it from Yacht.de (2 euros in German). It is certainly one of the best test sails, as it is usual on this magazine.

For me the really problem with this boat in what regards its success is the aesthetic side of the question. Nothing wrong with it but they broke on this line a basic rule of sails: They made all models according with the aesthetically line that comes from 409. We can see that this boat resembles the 409. That is a no no, a bigger and more expensive boat should not resemble the less expensive and smaller one, quite the opposite

Let's see how the public reacts to that. It is a shame because I am sure that is a great boat even if I find stupid that they had used the image of the 409 to make it look as belonging as the same design "line".

I guess that the main competition will come from the Bavaria vision 46 that costs 22 000 euros less. I had also read only nice things about the Bavaria Vision 46.

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  #3622  
Old 02-22-2013
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Smile And the Vendee Globe is over: Alessandro made it home

and it seems it was not only me and Eric that had noticed that the guy was last but had made a remarkable performance with a boat 25% slower than the ones that arrived first (no canting keel, 14 year's old boat).

He started this race as an adventurer that knew little about racing or sailing an Open 60 and finishes it as a competitive racer and a smiling one, broken rib and all. Now he only need a competitive boat to race with the best and I guess that his vast popularity will make it happen.

Alessandro Di Benedetto (FRA - ITA) on Team Plastique has crossed the finish line of the Vendée Globe at 15h 36 mn 30 s (French Time). He finishes eleventh in the race...(he) makes history with the shortest gap ever between the first and last finishers....

...(His) boat (was raced previously) by ‘Cali’ Boissières in 2008, Sébastien Josse in 2004 and Thomas Coville in 2000....

His race does not bear comparison to his rivals because he does not have the machine to compete in the pack and he has little experience of racing. And so he chooses to start steadily, to learn his boat day by day. To start with he is laid low by flu and that makes for a difficult first few days....

In a way the passage of Cape Horn is a watershed for the skipper of Team Plastique. He is no longer happy to just live his days in a good mood and get on steadily.

He has learned his boat and what makes each tenth of a knot of difference and he has upped the pace and rhythm accordingly. But successive damages have taken their toll. He is left with no downwind sails, has to climb the mast several times to sort out halyard issues. And a tumble into the cockpit when he gybes unexpectedly results in a broken rib for Alessandro. But he never shared a moment which was not upbeat and insightful. Just about every Di Benedetto broadcast started with ‘everything is good, everything is OK ...

And now finishing today, Friday 22nd February, Alessandro has improved on the reference time for the boat of his pal Boissières by more than one day...


And ARNAUD BOISSIÈRES is a racer, not really a top one but a good one with lot's of experience racing Open 60's. He won the Record SNSM in 2011.

I am curious about the video. I will post it when available.

...
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Last edited by PCP; 02-22-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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  #3623  
Old 02-22-2013
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Alessandro di Benedetto

Yes, he was received as a winner and the movie is the last one. First have a look at this one. It seems that the school kids of an old mountain village of France (Orthez) had made him their hero and were following the race. They made a movie, don't miss it


L'Ecole de Castétarbe soutient Alessandro por VendeeGlobeTV

Seeing this movie I remember that François Gabard (the winner) said that he dreamed to won the Vendee Globe since he had 7 years old. Who knows if among those kids will not be a future solo racer and maybe a Vendee Globe winner. One thing is for sure. Sailing is popular in France, even for kids in Orthez in the middle of the Pyrenees.


Arrivée de Team Plastique (2ème partie) por VendeeGlobeTV
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Old 02-22-2013
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New Jboat: J88

J/88 a Fast Family Daysailer & Racer: The boat comes in the line of previous J and in what regards hull design we can see some parallel with some Italian/Croatian boats in what I would call a classic line with the beam not completely pulled aft and with a moderate beam (by modern standards). They don't announce ballast but I am quite sure that it will be a considerably high ratio, similar to the other recent J's. Well, it looks good, without being particularly innovative. I bet it will sail very well









From the J design/build team that launched the J/70 and J/111, comes the NEW J/88, a 29’ mid-size family speedster with stability, style and sailing comfort. J/88 hits the sweet-spot in J Boat’s performance sprit range – large enough to provide the creature comforts of a sit-in cockpit, inboard diesel, overnighting interior and head; and small enough to be single-point lifted, owner trailered and stored.

... Belowdecks, the J/88 sports a weekending layout with two full length settees, Igloo cooler, galley sink, private head forward of bulkhead and optional V-berth.

J/88 hull #1 is projected to launch in June 2013!



Dimensions ft/lb m/kg
LOA 29.19 8.90
LWL 26.84 8.18
Beam 9.50 2.90
Standard Draft 6.50 1.98
Displacement 4,850 2,200
DieselAux.Engine 12 hp 12 hp
100% SA 439 40.80
SA/Dspl 24 24
Dspl/L 112 112
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Last edited by PCP; 02-22-2013 at 06:57 PM.
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  #3625  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Cruising Greece: planing information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You talk about windless days. You are talking about Dodecanese and Cyclades in July/ august? No experience there but for what I have read they are pretty rare. Much more windy then the Ionian. Maybe I am misinformed. Can you give a help here.
We also experienced more wind in the Cyclades, Paulo. In general that is, because once we had an almost windless week out there with only very few sailing hours but that was in November .


Quote:
With my draft I have some that I cannot visit but most of all I have the permanent doubt about the depth of the water near the quay and that is very important because it is where my ruder will be and it is a deep one (I guess almost 2.00m).

I had already that problem in Croatia, no in what regards anchoring, but in what regards going backwards to the quay. Many don't speak English and they are never very sure about the depth there. I am studding the possibility of mounting in the boat a forward looking depth sounder to make first a reading, bow to the quay, after turning around and set anchor, coming then backwards to the quay.

Do you know about someone that have used that kind of depth sounder?
Three months… that sounds like a wonderful dream .

The stern-to mooring with a very deep rudder is a problem all around the Mediterranean and the pilot books are not always accurate in this matter. And in Greece they don’t provide moorings at the quay the way they do in Croatia. I suppose you will sometimes prefer to use a stern anchor and come bow-to.

I don’t know about adequate sonar systems but intuitively I would think about a fishfinder type of sounder, although I must admit not being familiar with this type of equipment. And I suppose car parking aids don’t work under water .

Thanks a lot Paulo, I'd love to have this chart.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #3626  
Old 02-22-2013
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Re: Cruising Greece: planing information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
....

The stern-to mooring with a very deep rudder is a problem all around the Mediterranean and the pilot books are not always accurate in this matter. And in Greece they don’t provide moorings at the quay the way they do in Croatia. I suppose you will sometimes prefer to use a stern anchor and come bow-to.

I don’t know about adequate sonar systems but intuitively I would think about a fishfinder type of sounder, although I must admit not being familiar with this type of equipment. And I suppose car parking aids don’t work under water .

Thanks a lot Paulo, I'd love to have this chart.

Best regards,

Eric
Hi,

Tomorrow I will send it to you.

No, that is not a fish finder but a forward looking dept finder that is able to read the bottom forward till 100m. I think that will solve my problem.

I read about guys that used this kind of system to sail in uncharted places and they say very well about it. This is the more basic system and I think it will be enough for me. There are more sophisticated systems that present 3D resolutions and also read not only forward but also at an angle sideways. I see that you never heard about it, but then I guess you don't need it

Have a look at the basic system I want to fit:

http://echopilot.com/user/image/flsbronze.pdf

FLS Bronze Forward Looking Sonar

and also have a look at the more powerful solutions:



Regards

Paulo
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  #3627  
Old 02-23-2013
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Small oceangoing 28ft sailboat

Ok, you guys say that I only talk about expensive boats. Well, boats are expensive except if very old and I talk mostly about new boats.This one is a production relatively inexpensive boat with offshore capability, so younger guys and guys low on budget pay attention because this is a very interesting boat and a pretty much unknown one: a Polish one by a Polish NA. The designer, that also makes the boats, is a very interesting guy that had also circumnavigated, in one of his boats, of course.

I find this so interesting that I will make it in several posts. First some movies wind the boat. Girls, play attention please, this may be of interest. Comments please:









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Old 02-23-2013
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Multihull Stability

While I wait for a comment on those movies and boat, a paper and some comments on Multihull stability that I have posted already on another thread.

http://www.wumtia.soton.ac.uk/sites/...STAB2000BD.pdf

Not many studies around on cats. I had read this one many years ago and I had read it again. In my opinion the study, that is very interesting even if not always enlighten, suffers from a flaw: They determined that in the vast majority of capsizes wind was the main factor in what regards to capsizing and then when studding rolling and capsizing trough testing they considered only waves that have a pretty low incidence in capsizing catamarans, except when associated with wind.

I confess that I don't also understand this conclusion:

"84% of the catamaran casualties were the result of wind induced capsize or pitchpoling, whereas only 47% of the trimaran casualties were directly attributable to the wind. This does not indicate that trimarans are less vulnerable to capsize by the wind, because there are twice as many trimarans as catamarans in this sample"

They are talking about percentages so if the numbers are meaningful the fact that they have more samples from one than another is not relevant in what concerns percentages.

In fact it makes sense to say that Trimarans are less prone to capsize than catamarans by the wind. A simple compassion between two typical stability curves will show that while a cat after reaching its max righting moment (between 10º and 15º of heel) will lose rapidly stability, a Trimaran has a much more wider range of stability and even after reaching max RM, the loss of stability is much more gradual.

Here we have to stability curves of two cruising multihulls, or better several Cat GZ curves and a RM curve from a fast cruising trimaran (the shape of a GZ and RM curve is the same since they are proportional).





We can see that the cat MAX GZ (and RM) will be obtained with 15º of heel and then you have a strait line, from 45º till 80º.

Regarding the Cat we will see the the Max RM (and max GZ) will be obtained with 22º and then it is not a strait line but a slightly convex line that goes till 90º.

That's why when a cruising cat lifts one hull from the water it is a dangerous situation (a side wave can complete the loss of stability) while on a Trimaran sailing with one ama out of the water is normal and even with the central hull partially up (light on the water) the boat is still on control. this gives much more time for a sailor to react in a trimaran than in a cat. That is also why big ocean racing multihulls are today almost all trimarans.

Of course, they found out in that study (with testing) what it was obvious:

"Of the various catamaran configurations tested, the higher VCG (vertical center of gravity) conditions and the narrow beam configuration proved most vulnerable...
Although the narrow beam model was 20% narrower than the reference design, it is by no means unrepresentative. The length to hull separation ratio of the narrow model was 3.1 ..Previous tests with monohull models, indicated that, in general, they could be capsized by a breaking wave of a height equal to or greater than the beam of the yacht. "


and here he can see a basic difference between monohulls and multihulls, I mean on the last paragraph. Since the size of the wave, among other factors, relates with the beam of the boat in what regards the size needed to roll it, multihulls are much more resistant to be capsized by a breaking wave.

That is why when we study the factors that lead to the roll of monohulls we have by far breaking waves while on multihulls that is very rare (but not unheard) being by far the main factor, wind or wind associated with waves, a factor that has practically no relevance in rolling monohulls.

Here we can see that through these stability curves (all cats):



We can see that the values of Max GZ go from 1.8 to 3.0 (that has to do with beam). The cat they use as basic model (From where were derived the other models, with less and more beam, higher or lower CG) was a scale model of a 13.6m cat. A monohull with the same size has a Max Gz between 0.8 and 1.2. Since for the same size cats and monohulls have approximately the same weight that can gives us an idea of the different static stability and about the potential to carry sail.

Off course, the cats have to maintain a much bigger safety margin of security in what regards the amount of sail it is safe to carry. On a monohull a broach and a knock down is not a problem, on a cat it means a capsize.

Also, as was expected, they found out that Keels have a negative effect in what regards capsizing multihulls, but not with the relevance that Tropicat seem to attribute to them as a causing factor:

"The addition of the keels appeared to result in a slight increase in the vulnerability to capsize. For the narrow model it increased the capsize incidence from 14% to 60%, and for the standard model with the second VCG increase it increased from 17% to 25%. ...These results support the theory that it is the resistance to sideways motion that provides the couple to convert the breaking wave energy into rotation."

As we can see only on the narrow than average Cat the effect of the keels was very significant. On the standard model the increase was only 8% and in a sportive cat, that is wider than the average it is expected the increase would be even smaller. besides this is an old study from the nineties. Today almost no cats use keels, but daggerboarders that have a smaller lateral resistance so it is expected the negative effect in what regards stability to be smaller.

Regarding trimarans, not surprisingly and contrary to the wind factor, they have found that they are slightly more prone to capsize with a breaking wave, found out that smaller floaters in proportion with the main hull will make them easier to capsize by a breaking wave. Here, contrary to catamarans, the weight is a negative factor (and that's why I like trimarans).

"Of the trimaran configurations, those with the smaller floats were most vulnerable, with a 28% capsize rate for the standard displacement and a 38% capsize rate for the higher displacement....The tests confirmed the common opinion that small floats tend to become fully immersed if the yacht is struck by a breaking wave. Their high resistance to sideways motion then encourages rotation."

...
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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  #3629  
Old 02-24-2013
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Interesting 28ft boat?

Given your lack of comments it seems that those movies with the Polish ladies and that Polish mass produced 28ft sailboat had only impressed me. You guys are difficult to impress, or maybe you just didn't pay enough attention?

Did you have noticed that it is always the same boat? I mean not the same model, but the same boat?

Did you noticed that all those girls circumnavigated on it solo, some without stopping? A couple circumnavigated also.

So, the same mass production 28ft boat makes 4 circumnavigations, 3 of them solo with ladies, always brings everybody safe home, remains in one piece and it is ready to make another circumnavigation and that boat does not impress you? Jesus you guys are really hard to impress

Maybe the incredible speed one of the ladies managed on is little 28ft impress you? Joanna Pajkowska managed to circumnavigate non stop in 198 days. That is two days less than the double of the time Alessandro de Benedetto took on the last vendee Globe in his Open 60.

Jesus, that is about half the speed of a racing Open 60 on a 28ft sturdy cruising sailboat !!!!!. That impresses me, I would say CHAPEAU!!!! That does not impress you????

Comments?

Samotnie dooko³a ¶wiata - Start

kpt. Joanna Pajkowska - Sama na morzu... - Start

Kobiece regaty dooko³a ¶wiata - Mantra 28.

News: Bolo & Jadzia na Oceanie

http://www.rejs-asiapajkowska.yoyo.pl/
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Last edited by PCP; 02-24-2013 at 10:31 AM.
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  #3630  
Old 02-24-2013
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Re: Small oceangoing 28ft sailboat

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
First some movies wind the boat. Girls, play attention please, this may be of interest. Comments please:
This confirms my personal experience: ladies that like to sail are always absolutely gorgeous .

Best regards,

Eric
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