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  #3641  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Hello!
I am posting a link to an article about one self-made very ugly, but very interesting 12 meter aluminium boat. The owner and manufacturer Ernesto Tross (a German living in Italy and crusing in the Indian Ocean) swears by its seaworthiness and practicality. Essential non-standard features: No mainsail and boom (only fore sails), very aft deckstepped mast that can be lowered and lifted when the boat is on water, three fore stays for three headsails, good ballast in the bilge but no keel (only a centreboard), completely watertight flat deck with a lot of space below. The man claims he can sail up to 50 degrees true wind angle and that in heavy weather the boat behaves well (as far as I understand his only tactic is lying ahull). Without the resistance of the keel (with board lifted) a breaking wave moves the boat sideways instead of capsizing it. There is an interesting article on the boat in the March edition of Giornale della Vela for those who read Italian. The link I am posting is an old one with google translated text.

Nella tana dell'Orso Bianco

Regards
Rumen
Thanks for posting.









Google Translate

Is in fact a curious sailboat and built like a submarine, with the exception of the engine but I would not wanted it not even if it was offered free to me. I am sure it is very slow and it seems very amateurish to me. Maybe that's because I am an architect and I am used to see people thinking they can do a better job than an architect and build their houses with their own made plans thinking they know better. I am used to see the results, and the costs also.

You know a good NA has not only a solid theoretical basis that allow him not to make huge errors as has the accumulated knowledge of many other designs he and other NA had done. By other words he is very knowledgeable. He knows what works and what does not work for each use. He can due a better or worse job but it always be a very informed job and in the end it cannot be a bad one.

Thinking that a guy after having made a circumnavigation has the knowledge to improve radically on actual designs and systems is foolish. Simply the accumulated knowledge is not enough. He can eventually improve under the basis of a well known design but making successively a radically new one? I don't think it is possible or credible.

He have a success case in that regards improving under the basis of well known designs, and even that is pretty unusual, even if on this case it really happened. I am referring to Hanna's boat, the Boreal 44, but in this case the builder just improved details over well known boat typologies that were already expressed in boats like the OVNI or Allures. If he tried a completely different approach, like in this case, I bet he would be condemned to failure or at least would have to make many boats to finally get to a good an acceptably good boat in what regards performance, commodity and price.

He has taken a huge effort to make that boat and obviously spend a lot of money in it. He is not young, in some years when he is going to sell it we will only get a fraction of what it cost it to him, not to mention the thousands of hours he took to build it. I believe that like me, nobody would want a boat like that.

Boats like the Allures or Boreal are so good because there is a huge line of previous designs made by the same principles, many designed by the same NA, and they learn with each boat and the next is a bit better and so improvements have been introduced by several decades and dozens of designs.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-26-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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  #3642  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternik View Post
Oh wow, even I did not know Scandinavia 30 is already in production. Little while back, they only had 26 and 27 - which are somewhat similar.

There is this video on YouTube promoting Polish boat-building industry.

Hi. thanks for posting

Jesus, I knew Poland was big in building boats but that BIG?!!!!

" 900 shipyards and boat builders, 22 000 boats a year and 95% exports" That's huge and I guess they are still beginning.

I guess that one of the limiting factors is that most boat builders are still being used as sub-contractors and the only exception regarding a big shipyard is Delphia. Most of the ones that are producing their own brands are doing so almost exclusively on the work of Polish NA. There are some good ones around but their work is just not just as bright and innovative as the work produced by some well known NA and NA firms that design for instance for the French or German shipyards.

The boats, most of them 30ft or smaller are nice but not properly innovative or better than French or Slovenian/Croatian boats. I hope that they change strategy and understand that design and innovation is a main factor on boat quality and that is something that small builders sometimes have difficulty in understanding, focusing mostly in quality and price. I bet that it will not take longer to change. There are already some Polish NA that have an huge experience like Andrzej Skrzat the designer of the the very nice Delphia 47, of your boat the Solina 27, has many other boats among them the Cobra. I would not call him innovative, but good certainly a very good one.

ANDRZEJ SKRZAT - YACHT DESIGNS

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-26-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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  #3643  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo, I fully agree with you. Orso bianco is a kind of Noah's ark (polar bears are neither fast, nor very good swimmers). I wonder why a well respected magazine like Vela has paid attention in five pages to this boat. When reading an article from a professional source one takes it for granted even when it defies physics and common sense. It is very much strange if you consider that the man has a diploma from the Academy of Fine Arts in Italy, a country where a lot of attention is paid to good design and velocity in terms of boat building. I would not want such a boat but will be curious to sail it in really bad weather in order to check whether it is really so much seaworthy and comfortable as claimed.

Regards
Rumen
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  #3644  
Old 02-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo,
Andrzej Skrzat is not the only famous polish NA, but definitely he is most recognised almost world-wide. For longest time, he fought "fierce battles" with Henryk Jaszczewski (His boats), and won after design of Tango 730, which very much literally left the competition behind. Jaszczewski has since retired. Another well known "veteran" is Jerzy Piesniewski, but he is mostly designing boats for internal market in Poland. On the other side, there are young NA such as Wojtek Spisak, who has designed Scandinavia line of boats, of which you have posted Scandinavia 30. There are others, but I can't recall their names. Oh, wait, Tomasz Siwik of TES Yachts has been building boats since late 70s.

Makes such as Delphia, Galeon, Antilla, Maxus, Phobos, Libra or Focus are at this moment fairly well recognised in Europe and featured at major boat shows in Europe. But I would say this only represents (my estimate) only about 20% of the market sales. The rest is building hulls/full vessels for well established builders, both sail and power. Brunswick Marine representing brands such as Bayliner and Quicksilver is building their boats in Poland, among other known "western" builders.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternik View Post
Paulo,
Andrzej Skrzat is not the only famous polish NA, but definitely he is most recognised almost world-wide. For longest time, he fought "fierce battles" with Henryk Jaszczewski (His boats), and won after design of Tango 730, which very much literally left the competition behind. Jaszczewski has since retired. Another well known "veteran" is Jerzy Piesniewski, but he is mostly designing boats for internal market in Poland. On the other side, there are young NA such as Wojtek Spisak, who has designed Scandinavia line of boats, of which you have posted Scandinavia 30. There are others, but I can't recall their names. Oh, wait, Tomasz Siwik of TES Yachts has been building boats since late 70s.

...
Thanks for information about Polish NA. However you have left at least one out and one that I particularly like, the one that designed the Mantra 28, Andrzej Arminski:

Andrzej Armiski - Projektowanie i budowa jachtw



Regards

Paulo
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  #3646  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Guilty as charged
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  #3647  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Paulo, I fully agree with you. Orso bianco is a kind of Noah's ark (polar bears are neither fast, nor very good swimmers). I wonder why a well respected magazine like Vela has paid attention in five pages to this boat. When reading an article from a professional source one takes it for granted even when it defies physics and common sense. It is very much strange if you consider that the man has a diploma from the Academy of Fine Arts in Italy, a country where a lot of attention is paid to good design and velocity in terms of boat building. I would not want such a boat but will be curious to sail it in really bad weather in order to check whether it is really so much seaworthy and comfortable as claimed.

Regards
Rumen
The claims you have reported and that he made are probably true (if the boat is correctly designed in what regards stability ). It has to do with the type of boat. That type of boat, Aluminum centerboarders work that way, with all the ballast on the interior.

Many voyagers have used them and had verified their seaworthiness. As I have said, OVNI, Allures and Boreal are that type of boat. Neither of them is ugly and they sail pretty well.

Regards

Paulo
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  #3648  
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Mantra 31

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
I, for one, am extremely impressed, by both the skill and confidence of the women, and by the performance of the boat. Too bad that I'm not able to understand the Polish commentary, although I did watch all the videos to the end. Now I will certainly be doing more research on this boat, although it is a bit smaller than I would prefer, since I am planning to go double-handed, not solo. However, I'm now thinking that 33-35ft might be adequate, whereas I had been thinking no shorter than 40ft, for speed, safety and comfort.

Please post any print or video reviews of the Mantra 28 if you should come across them (preferably in English, French or Spanish). Thank you very much for posting these inspirational videos.

MrP
I don't know what size of boat will fit your needs but if you want a bit bigger than the 28, the same designer has a beautiful 31 ft daysailer. If that size fits you maybe he is interested in transforming it on a cruiser. The boat has a huge B/D ratio and can be made very seaworthy for its size.







He had also circumnavigated in a 40ft designed by himself. Since he is also the one that makes his boats maybe he is interested in making a bigger cruiser for offshore work on the Mantra series and you could be the first costumer. My be a good deal for both, I mean in what regards money for the boat.

If you want to contact him here are the contacts:

Andrzej Armi?ski - Projektowanie i budowa jachtów

Regards

Paulo
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  #3649  
Old 02-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Only one and a half years later Najad is insolvent again...
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  #3650  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Only one and a half years later Najad is insolvent again...
Sad news

Pleasure boat manufacturer Nord West & Najad in Henan, Orust have filed for bankruptcy. The company is one of Scandinavia's largest boat builders. It is unclear what bankruptcy means for business.

According to the company website it launched a new boat model in Gothenburg boat show a few weeks ago.

The company was formed when the boat manufacturer North West bought, in October 2012, Najad that bankrupted in 2011.

...
Najad had built boats in Henan on Orust in 40 years when the bankruptcy happened in 2011.

Nord West & Najad has over 140 employees and a turnover of over 300 million euros.

"The last three years, 60-70 percent of all jobs in the marine industry have disappeared. During this difficult time, the North West is not terminated any employees, but now they have therefore filed a bankruptcy petition," said GS unions negotiator, Kenneth Edvardsson to GP.
....
According to SAVE, the company's sales plummeted after the New Year. His assessment is that the business needs to bring in some new owners, who can finance it.

....

"The activity will be kept running barely so much you can ask for in this situation," said bankruptcy trustee Frederick Tengström, who took over responsibility for North West & Najad.

...
Mats Eriksson, CEO of Sweboat, boating Federation, is very surprised to Nord West & Najad gone bankrupt.

"First, we feel that it is a well-managed company, and also feels like the industry is at the end of the austerity program lasting five years., We are starting to see optimism," says Eriksson said.

He emphasizes, however, that the boat manufacturing requires that you have plenty of capital.
....
di.se


I would say that it was predictable. The only way a smaller company like Nord West could have success with Najad was downsizing the company to market demand and then try to grow again. They have maintained all Najad employees (and I don't believe it was for their choice, but because they had too) on a company that has producing only a fraction that was producing some years ago. The results were as I said predictable.

Maybe the bankruptcy is a maneuver needed to re-scale the company and fire employees without having to pay impossible compensations.

Some hints on that new point to that. Anyway I wish them good look, a company that produced so many years boats with such an impeccable quality deserve to survive.

Regards

Paulo
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