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  #3671  
Old 03-07-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Some pages back we talked about Drascombe, a sweet old traditional open boat that today is everywhere. Let me talk of another one that is also around the world, a slightly more modern one with a small cabin. I guess with this one a young guy can have a lot of fun and go along the shore a long way. It sails well too.
Nice!

Looks a lot better as an open boat without that stupid (and useless) cabin.. as shown in the last vid.
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  #3672  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Nice!

Looks a lot better as an open boat without that stupid (and useless) cabin.. as shown in the last vid.
I agree that the boat looks better without cabin but if I had 20 years old I would have chosed the one with the cabin.

I agree that on the movie the interior of the cabin looks odd, it seems to miss something, but on the site we can see this photo. I guess it is enough for two for sleeping.



I can imagine myself going along a shore and stopping in rivers or beaches for sleeping. That cabin beats a tent

They have a new model (bay cruiser), just a feet longer, with a more modern rig, carbon and all. The boat looks good and the cabin is a lot bigger but I guess it is considerably more expensive.





Regards

Paulo
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Re: Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I agree with you on that. It is not the chart table per se but that panel. The boat even has good holding points but you are right if someone holds itself on that panel it is going to break. But I guess that sailors are also responsible for a lot of nonsense regarding where they want navigation instruments on a sailboat. In fact today plotters are used mostly on coastal navigation and on coastal navigation it makes sense the plotter near the helmsman. The same with the VHF.

When doing offshore navigation, I mean crossing Oceans everybody uses a laptop for navigation and that is the only kind of navigation where you can be inside the boat for a considerable time. The use of computer is necessary not only to receive and decode Gribs as also to run routing programs.

99% of the boats are used mostly on coastal conditions, even if occasionally sail offshore and that has to be taken in account when designing a standard navigation set up (that eventually can be changed for the few that want a boat mostly for offshore use).

In fact that configuration, that is not only used on the Dehler but on most cruising boats makes no sense but clients still want to have a lot of instruments near the chart table, as if the boat was a ship and the boat was effectively sailed from that place.

Salona is one of the few performance cruisers that have as an option decently designed pods for instruments near the two wheels. They have done that at my request for the 38 I was going to buy. Well, I did not bought the boat but they have used them on the 35. I am not sure if that is a popular option. I guess that many still prefer to have the plotter inside.



Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo and Erik

I have to say that if the Dehler 38 was gifted to me that I would be a very happy sailor. I love the design both interior and exterior.

What struck me as odd though was that there is no standard bowsprit on a performance cruiser - come on guys, get with the program!

Personally I like the folding down platform particularly when sailing with the family and their are kids involved. Also at an anchorage, it is simply the best. If you want to go racing, then you just remove it and leave it open. The Dufour 36 has this flexibility built into the design crossover concept which I personally think is the way forward.

Coming back to the Salona, I have to confess that like you Paulo, I think this is a company with a very smart strategy in a market in which it is very difficult to distinguish one cruiser from the next. I posted this on the Hanse forum the other day which talks about the Salona 35.

One brand which I have followed for some time and which I particularly like for many reasons is Salona. They seem to have a very clear strategy and have differentiated themselves in a market where it is increasingly difficult to distinguish one boat from the other. Their strategy seems to be

- employ a recognized NA and interior designer
- enter high profile regattas to get their brand out there and better known by winning them
- enter their boats in the prestigious European Yacht of the Year. Competition. The Salona 37 won this competition some years back
- target the performance cruiser segment of the market only. You can order a Salona that is race ready or performance cruiser ready. The difference is in the weight of the hull, carbon rig, deeper draught, better deckware, better sails etc etc
- they are happy to customize their boats to a degree for their customers. For example if you want a higher B/D ratio,then they will increase the weight of the keel - their hulls can handle it
- they use a stainless steel backbone that Hanse used to have in their H462 which takes the loads from the keel and the standing rigging
- adding layers of carbon fibre on areas of the hull for further strengthening
- they have waterproof front and rear sections to protect the boat against impact, including the area around the rudder stock
- their manufacturing process is so good that Sydney Yachts have just agreed a deal for Salona to manufacture them
- their interior joinery is considered by many to be a cut above
- they offer incredible value for money considering what you are getting. The new Salona 35 with twin wheels, recessed traveller in the cockpit retails for around Euro100,000

I would say that Hanse should be looking to re-introduce those competitive advantages that they had in the past. Like epoxy and the backbone. Otherwise they will be grouped in the AWB category and be competing on price.

Cheers

David
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  #3674  
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Salona Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
...

Coming back to the Salona, I have to confess that like you Paulo, I think this is a company with a very smart strategy in a market in which it is very difficult to distinguish one cruiser from the next. I posted this on the Hanse forum the other day which talks about the Salona 35.

One brand which I have followed for some time and which I particularly like for many reasons is Salona. They seem to have a very clear strategy and have differentiated themselves in a market where it is increasingly difficult to distinguish one boat from the other. Their strategy seems to be

- employ a recognized NA and interior designer
- enter high profile regattas to get their brand out there and better known by winning them
- enter their boats in the prestigious European Yacht of the Year. Competition. The Salona 37 won this competition some years back
- target the performance cruiser segment of the market only. You can order a Salona that is race ready or performance cruiser ready. The difference is in the weight of the hull, carbon rig, deeper draught, better deckware, better sails etc etc
- they are happy to customize their boats to a degree for their customers. For example if you want a higher B/D ratio,then they will increase the weight of the keel - their hulls can handle it
- they use a stainless steel backbone that Hanse used to have in their H462 which takes the loads from the keel and the standing rigging
- adding layers of carbon fibre on areas of the hull for further strengthening
- they have waterproof front and rear sections to protect the boat against impact, including the area around the rudder stock
- their manufacturing process is so good that Sydney Yachts have just agreed a deal for Salona to manufacture them
- their interior joinery is considered by many to be a cut above
- they offer incredible value for money considering what you are getting. The new Salona 35 with twin wheels, recessed traveller in the cockpit retails for around Euro100,000

I would say that Hanse should be looking to re-introduce those competitive advantages that they had in the past. Like epoxy and the backbone. Otherwise they will be grouped in the AWB category and be competing on price.

Cheers

David
Hi David,

I disagree with you on one thing: "employ a recognized NA". That was before I mean they used J & J design as you say a recognized European office that among others designed the Shipman line:

http://www.shipman.dk/_PDF/shipman63.pdf

Seaway

But now they are working with a much less known NA, Ker. Well not well known among the public..... because he is just one of the best, among the very few that are on the top edge of design in what regards sailboat performance.

Ker Yacht Design

The Ker 40 is probably the fastest 40ft race boat and just look at this list of victories:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

By the way the Sydney are designed by Ker also and the performance cruiser Sydney GTS 43 that won last year's edition of the Sydney Hobart race (in compensated) finishing among 60fts.

Ker, being on the other side of the world, has been called mostly by the racing community to design their boats. He has designed some very fast performance cruisers but till know he was not called by any major brand to design their line. Well, not anymore. He is the designer that works for Salona regarding theit future line. He developed the keels and rudders on the 35 and 38 (the hull is still an older J&J design) and the first boat designed entirely by him is the 60ft that is almost finished. It seems it will be followed by a 50ft.

It is hard to wait some years to see what it is going to be the new Ker designed Salona line in what regards smaller sailboats

Salona has recently introduced a Geenaker "pole" as an option.They have opted for a carbon one, that include the anchor stand. I had asked that for the 38 (they had none at the time) and talked personally with their in house designer, that is a very good one, regarding the options. I have discussed the several possibilities with them, including a moving pole but that has the disadvantage to "enter" in the front cabin and also it is prone to small water infiltration to the boat interior. I like their solution, that is similar as the one used by X yachts. Have a look at the geenaker pole on a 41:



You can see it better on this movie on a 35.



Another piece that was designed and discussed for my boat was the outside table (have a look at the movie). It is a easily removable table but that in position it is strong, does not occupy much space and offers a very good holding bar.

There is also another important point, one that was common to Hanse : the possibility of having a boat made with epoxy resins. Hanse does not offer that option anymore but it is a very good option that allows a stronger, lighter and above all, an waterproof boat.

Connected with customization there is another relevant point: They really like to discuss the boat with you, at least with me that was the feeling. They are modest, knowledgeable and really like you to visit their shipyard and to explain everything to you. All the advantages of a small firm with the prices of a mass production boat

Regarding to Hanse I think that those changes in policy regarding options and quality materials have to do with them owning several brands. If you want a better quality cruising sailboat, buy a Moody. If you want a performance cruiser, buy the Dehler. If you don't have the money for one or another, buy an Hanse. Yes the Hanse is definitively competing in price with Oceanis, Bavaria, Jeanneau and Dufour. even so it offers interesting boats with a better stability than most the competition. I still think that their worse point is the interior design. The Germans never had been very good at that but Bavaria has improved. I can only hope Hanse will do the same, the boats deserve it and Dehler is showing the way.

Regards

Paulo
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  #3675  
Old 03-08-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Here's something that should qualify as 'interesting'.... the build is well underway.

The SLIVER Project - YACHT DESIGN
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  #3676  
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The Silver one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Here's something that should qualify as 'interesting'.... the build is well underway.

The SLIVER Project - YACHT DESIGN








Certainly a beautiful boat and also an extreme boat regarding several counts:

A 60ft day sailor, very narrow with a small long interior, a big draft and a nice narrow deep bulbed keel.

This is a sailboat that will need a relatively small sail area relatively to its length, a boat that will take advantage of a big LOA and relatively big LWL to be a fast boat, particularly upwind. The narrow hull will not generate a lot of form stability, it is a boat that needs to heel to create RM. With any considerable amount of wind this boat will go fast upwind but with a lot of heel.

I understand and respect the intention to make the boat accordingly with semiotic image of a past traditional model, a long canoe body. That gives a beautiful boat but that double end takes away the possibility of increasing that already small for stability, particularly downwind.

Here you have another American very marrow boat, certainly more sportive, using a shape of hull and transom that will provide more form stability:



But the Silver is a very particular boat certainly for a very particular owner to whom maximizing performance will not be central, neither the interior space in what regards pleasantness or space volume or the possibility to sail in not deep waters. Probably beauty, pleasure of sailing and easy speed are what the owner wants and I have no doubt the boat will provide that.

Anyway, talking about an one off is completely different than talking about a production model. A production model is made to please to a market segment, a one off is made to please a owner. If the owner is completely satisfied and his dreams were fulfilled, than it is a great boat even if it will not please or satisfy the needs of any other sailor. Regarding a production model, it is more complicated since the designer is not trying to satisfy only one client but the needs and desires of many people.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Salona Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi David,

I disagree with you on one thing: "employ a recognized NA". That was before I mean they used J & J design as you say a recognized European office that among others designed the Shipman line:

http://www.shipman.dk/_PDF/shipman63.pdf

Seaway

But now they are working with a much less known NA, Ker. Well not well known among the public..... because he is just one of the best, among the very few that are on the top edge of design in what regards sailboat performance.

Ker Yacht Design

The Ker 40 is probably the fastest 40ft race boat and just look at this list of victories:

Results | Ker Yacht Design

By the way the Sydney are designed by Ker also and the performance cruiser Sydney GTS 43 that won last year's edition of the Sydney Hobart race (in compensated) finishing among 60fts.

Ker, being on the other side of the world, has been called mostly by the racing community to design their boats. He has designed some very fast performance cruisers but till know he was not called by any major brand to design their line. Well, not anymore. He is the designer that works for Salona regarding theit future line. He developed the keels and rudders on the 35 and 38 (the hull is still an older J&J design) and the first boat designed entirely by him is the 60ft that is almost finished. It seems it will be followed by a 50ft.

It is hard to wait some years to see what it is going to be the new Ker designed Salona line in what regards smaller sailboats

Salona has recently introduced a Geenaker "pole" as an option.They have opted for a carbon one, that include the anchor stand. I had asked that for the 38 (they had none at the time) and talked personally with their in house designer, that is a very good one, regarding the options. I have discussed the several possibilities with them, including a moving pole but that has the disadvantage to "enter" in the front cabin and also it is prone to small water infiltration to the boat interior. I like their solution, that is similar as the one used by X yachts. Have a look at the geenaker pole on a 41:



You can see it better on this movie on a 35.



Another piece that was designed and discussed for my boat was the outside table (have a look at the movie). It is a easily removable table but that in position it is strong, does not occupy much space and offers a very good holding bar.

There is also another important point, one that was common to Hanse : the possibility of having a boat made with epoxy resins. Hanse does not offer that option anymore but it is a very good option that allows a stronger, lighter and above all, an waterproof boat.

Connected with customization there is another relevant point: They really like to discuss the boat with you, at least with me that was the feeling. They are modest, knowledgeable and really like you to visit their shipyard and to explain everything to you. All the advantages of a small firm with the prices of a mass production boat

Regarding to Hanse I think that those changes in policy regarding options and quality materials have to do with them owning several brands. If you want a better quality cruising sailboat, buy a Moody. If you want a performance cruiser, buy the Dehler. If you don't have the money for one or another, buy an Hanse. Yes the Hanse is definitively competing in price with Oceanis, Bavaria, Jeanneau and Dufour. even so it offers interesting boats with a better stability than most the competition. I still think that their worse point is the interior design. The Germans never had been very good at that but Bavaria has improved. I can only hope Hanse will do the same, the boats deserve it and Dehler is showing the way.

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo

One observation about Salona. They like to keep using their older hulls to save on costs. They did this with the Salona 38 which used the hull of the Salona 37 and the same for the Salona 35 which uses the hull from the Salona 34. Bavaria have done the same with the new cruiser 33 which uses the hull from the Cruiser 32. Both companies have changed the coachroof a lot to give a totally different look. I think that the hull shape on the Salonas looks a little dated but I am being picky.

Another innovation that I really like is from …lan who have a fold up table in the cockpit. Really easy to stow and to erect. Also, I think that recessed travelers in the cockpit should become standard across the range for Salona.

I love the bowsprit on the Salona 41 which doesn't seem to have a bob stay because it is in carbon.

Just my thought ...
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Re: Salona Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

One observation about Salona. They like to keep using their older hulls to save on costs. They did this with the Salona 38 which used the hull of the Salona 37 and the same for the Salona 35 which uses the hull from the Salona 34. Bavaria have done the same with the new cruiser 33 which uses the hull from the Cruiser 32. Both companies have changed the coachroof a lot to give a totally different look. I think that the hull shape on the Salonas looks a little dated but I am being picky.

Another innovation that I really like is from …lan who have a fold up table in the cockpit. Really easy to stow and to erect. Also, I think that recessed travelers in the cockpit should become standard across the range for Salona.

I love the bowsprit on the Salona 41 which doesn't seem to have a bob stay because it is in carbon.

Just my thought ...
Regarding maintaining the hulls of the previous boats (37 ans 34 and 42) on the 38, 35 and 41, that hull design is 7 or 8 years old. They modified the transoms, keels and rudders as well as the cabins. It talked with them about it and they said, with some reason, that the previous models are winning races and that some new buyers had the previous models and what they want is the same type of boat but faster with a better interior, that means lighter and with better keel and ruder design since the hull is still up to date.

I guess you are confusing hulls designed to perform better on certain conditions with out dated hulls. I guess you are talking about hulls with all beam brought aft, like on the Dehler. That will improve downwind control and stability (to an extent) but it will be detrimental for upwind performance and pointing ability. It all has to do with the balance on the boat in what regards performance.

Have a look at a slightly out dated hull, the one from the First 40.7, a recent boat with a great performance:



And now have a look at the hull shape of the Italia 13.98 (European boat of the year 2013):



a look of one of the best recent racing boat, the J111 (2011?):



and a look at the Salona 35 and 41:





See what I mean? Of course these are only 2D shapes but I guess that they are enough to give you a general idea.

Regards

Paulo
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New boat: Broadblue Rapier 400

Very nice cat, a light and one with a not big lateral surface (windage). They don't give sail area but I bet that it is a fast one.



















This is a class A boat and compared with a Lagoon 400, it will be a much faster boat...but it would have more stability regarding offshore use?



Well, I would much prefer a Rapier 400 than a Lagoon 400 but regarding that question I would say that the Lagoon has a lot more stability.

Sure, it has a bigger windage but it will not be enough, not by far, for compensate the Rapier lesser beam and much lesser weight.

The Lagoon has 7.25m of beam and 10348kg as displacement. The Rappier 400 has 6.7m of beam and displaces 5000kg.

They have two versions, one open, with just a fixed big Dodger, a bit kind of an Amel type and one enclosed. I like more the Open one, with less weight up and with a better visibility to the helmsman but in what regards functionality and living aboard the closed one is obviously better but than that wheel position does not make much sense anymore.

A very interesting boat nonetheless and one that should be fun sailing.
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Re: Salona Yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding maintaining the hulls of the previous boats (37 ans 34 and 42) on the 38, 35 and 41, that hull design is 7 or 8 years old. They modified the transoms, keels and rudders as well as the cabins. It talked with them about it and they said, with some reason, that the previous models are winning races and that some new buyers had the previous models and what they want is the same type of boat but faster with a better interior, that means lighter and with better keel and ruder design since the hull is still up to date.

I guess you are confusing hulls designed to perform better on certain conditions with out dated hulls. I guess you are talking about hulls with all beam brought aft, like on the Dehler. That will improve downwind control and stability (to an extent) but it will be detrimental for upwind performance and pointing ability. It all has to do with the balance on the boat in what regards performance.

See what I mean? Of course these are only 2D shapes but I guess that they are enough to give you a general idea.

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo

I know that the older hulls perform very well and like you i also prefer a more moderate beam. To be honest you have educated me over many posts to understand the advantages and disadvantages of a wider beam taken all the way back versus a more moderate beam. If I were in the market for a new boat, then I would also look for a moderate beam with a moderate freeboard, fine lines of entry with a forefoot that is not too shallow and a hull with some rocker. What I find missing from these older hulls is a chine which assists form stability as you know but which I like the look of. Also I find that in the Salona 35 that the coach roof is too rounded for my liking. A more modern approach would be to have it flatter. Also, i like the option of a bathing platfrom with integrated ladder for chilling at thatbanchorage after you have arrived befiore everyone else

What I am on about is aesthetics more than anything else.

A brilliant boat though and like the Dehler, if it found its way onto my berth, I would be one happy sailor.

David
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