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  #3741  
Old 03-24-2013
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Volta 12,20

In fact that concept that I was talking about on a previous post, I mean ".. the next generation of aluminium boats, the ones that will have this power (lots of it) and a keel that swings up, with all the ballast on it." exists already but only as a custom boat made by a reputable French shipyard specialized on aluminium boats (it was there that the first two Boreal were built).

The designer is one of the best and most innovative of the new generation of French NA, Pierre Roland with Delion. I have posted already about that boat (the first one is being built) but I guess it deserves another post:

Pierre Rolland says about the boat (translated):

THE VOLTA 12.20 is a fast cruising sailboat cruising with variable draft. Built in aluminum, it has a swing keel.

As a sailboat it is a chameleon: It is a bluewater voyage boat , fast and efficient, efficient and stable thanks to its deep draft and ballasted keel. A
Bird of the open sea that can turn in a perfect coastal cruiser due to its very small draft with the keel up.

The big RM and draft as well as the design makes it an excellent upwind boat, and a very seaworthy boat. The weight gained on ballast by this type of keel as well as the efficient hull allows a very good downwind performance and planning speeds.The keel outside the boat permits a not restricted layout with great living accommodation.

It has an effective and simple rigging. The large well protected cockpit provides an easy access to transom platform. It is protected and ergonomic in navigation while being comfortable at anchor.

It is a solid boat: The aluminum construction ensures high resistance to impact.The front and rear closed bulkheads increases security in case of open water.

It has a bright interior: The panoramic roof brings a lot of clarity in the Galley and saloon. The sea view is very pleasant in anchorage and navigation.
The galley and head are particularly thought in what regards ergonomics for use at anchor and in navigation, an important factor in a living aboard boat.

An easy sailboat: With a reasonable size, the VOLTA 12.20 is easy to maneuver with a small crew, at sea or in port.
Its program is to offer an exciting navigation and comfortable time on anchorage or marina.


The boat weights 8000kg. That is possible due to a ballast of only 2100kg on a keel with 2.60m of draft. I would ask for more 500kg of ballast but as it is the low CG will provide already a big RM (increased by a big beam) and a decent AVS. All in all, a very interesting boat. If my plans included extensive bluewater sailing it would be something like this that I would be looking for. This boat weights less 2.3T than the Allures 39.9 for about the same sail and probably a similar RM. But that is just me that likes to have fun sailing besides liking cruising and voyaging.













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Last edited by PCP; 03-24-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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  #3742  
Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Interesting to me, that what is obviously lacking is any sturdy hand holds in the companion way for going down the stairs. There are no handholds down below at all. I consider this important in boats designed for sailing in any sea state. Or is the focus of design, just to look pretty tied up to the dock? (not that I consider this to be an atrractive boat below decks. Simply not my cup of tea)

When I look at boats, I picture what I need when underway. That foo foo glass sink in the head, is so shallow that any water would slop over in any sort of wake or sea state. And the sharp corners will likely find the softest, most vascular foreheads in a short period of time.

Again ... in the head there are no handholds at all, and the toilet is facing the wrong way. Are folks buying these boats, actually planning to hoist sails in 20 knots and understand heeling? Do they understand what one needs for safe navigating down below to make coffee or do anything while underway? That towel rack is sure to be a point of contact for knees and thighs, and catch clothes.

Give me a boat for sailing designed by those who actually sail it, and not one like this whose design seems to geared toward life tied up to the dock. This is not a boat that I would want to go offshore or in any sea state with. The lack of thought in the layout down below shows the priorities, and it's not for any serious sailing.

Last edited by Boomberries; 03-24-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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  #3743  
Old 03-24-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Boomberry,

Which boat were you talking about?
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  #3744  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Boomberry,

Which boat were you talking about?
Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities.
I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out.
The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.
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  #3745  
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Handholds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomberries View Post
Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities.
I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out.
The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.
I agree regarding the Ay 480 but what you are seeing are just foto realistic images of the interior. I cannot find any real pictures. That does not mean that the actual boat does not have handholds. That would be quite dumb in a boat that is designed to be a voyage boat.

What you are seeing also regarding the Bavaria 56 is a photo realistic image and in the image that are no handholds but on the real boat they exist. Bavaria is probably among the ones that mass produce boats the brand that take handholds and attaching points more seriously. It is the only brand that has as an option an integrated permanent jacklines system.

If you look at the actual interior you will see that the Bavaria has handholds on the side and on the ceiling. That galley is a also very good in what regards cooking on voyage. Probably the same happens with the AY 480.

Have a look:

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 56

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-24-2013 at 01:54 PM.
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  #3746  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomberries View Post
Thanks Hannah2, for asking me to clarify. I realize now that there are several possibilities.
I was referring to the interior of the AY 480. There is one chrome handhold above the companionway that one could not reach going down the stairs. The boat looks cheap and poorly thought out.
The Bavaria looks more thoughtfully and solidly designed below, yet still lacks any handholds.
I do not know much about the AY 480 but what I found with these semi custom French boats is that things like hand holds are not put in until the owner tells the company where and what kind of hand holds they want. The Bavaria does have a different layout and I'm not crazy about the AY or the Bavaria layout. But I must say the Bavaria companionway has more meat on both sides for going below or coming above in rough weather one needs those bulkhead walls to brace your shoulders. That being said I would rather have the AY 480 any day for world cruising 3 times the boat in my mind.
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Re: Dufour 36 performance

hi David, Hi Paulo,

I am considering buying a ELAN350 or a Dufour 36P and your discussion is quite interesting to me.

Questions:

Could you explain me your ratios ? D/L , SA/D, B/D etc ...

More over I would like to find some rating for these boats ( IRC or Club Racing handicap ) so as to see if the (expected) fast boat I will buy give me a chance of winning a Club regatta.
Many thnaks for your inpout!
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Dufour 36 p / Elan 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by getk View Post
hi David, Hi Paulo,

I am considering buying a ELAN350 or a Dufour 36P and your discussion is quite interesting to me.

Questions:

Could you explain me your ratios ? D/L , SA/D, B/D etc ...

More over I would like to find some rating for these boats ( IRC or Club Racing handicap ) so as to see if the (expected) fast boat I will buy give me a chance of winning a Club regatta.
Many thnaks for your inpout!
Hi, welcome to sailnet and to this thread.

The Elan 350 and the Dufour 36p are great boats but also very different boats. Probably the Elan is faster downwind and the Dufour better upwind.

DUFOUR 36P sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

ELAN 350 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Regarding the ratios they are not mine. Have a look:

How Boat Displacement and Sail Area Affect Performance

Sailboat Ratio Information

Regarding ratings probably the best are ORCI ratings but take into consideration that same model boats can have small differences due to different sails and materials:

http://www.wne-yachting.nl/cms/wp-co...ORCi_SWE38.pdf

http://www.avop.org/flota/cert-orc/2013/PER1607.pdf

Take into consideration that the file of that Elan regards one with 2.33m draft and that the one from the Dufour regards one with 2.17m. That will give a proportionally better upwind performance to the Elan but just because the boats have different drafts.





The speeds are very similar but the Elan is a boat that will heel more easily, specially upwind.

The chance of winning club regattas has more to do how the boat can sail to its rating than with the absolute performance of the boat. To know about that you will not find it through the boat rating but in what regards the number of races the boat is winning. In that respect is to early to know how the 36p will perform but the idea I have is that the Elan, even if a great performance cruising boat and a fast boat, is not specially good in what regards sailing to its ratio.

Maybe you should consider also a Salona. Those can sail to their ratios and have been winning races.

Start to look at the results on major ORC and IRC races. that will give you a clue about winning boats. As I have said, that has not necessarily to do with absolute boat performance but generally a winning boat is a fast boat. To see how fast it really is look for the times in real time since victories and the classification are given in compensated time.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-24-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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  #3749  
Old 03-24-2013
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Elan 350

and since we are talking about the Elan 350, some images of the boat going fast downwind with lots of wind, its specialty as opposed at sailing with very weak winds, its weakest performance while racing:



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Old 03-25-2013
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Re: Dufour 36 p / Elan 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The chance of winning club regattas has more to do how the boat can sail to its rating than with the absolute performance of the boat. To know about that you will not find it through the boat rating but in what regards the number of races the boat is winning. In that respect is to early to know how the 36p will perform but the idea I have is that the Elan, even if a great performance cruising boat and a fast boat, is not specially good in what regards sailing to its ratio.

Regards

Paulo
It is more probable that the same rating to win the one with more length, or equal length which is less rating? For example the J/122 and J/111 have almost the same rating. I can not imagine that the J/111 will win the J/122 corrected time under any conditions.
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