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  #3751  
Old 03-25-2013
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J boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
It is more probable that the same rating to win the one with more length, or equal length which is less rating? For example the J/122 and J/111 have almost the same rating. I can not imagine that the J/111 will win the J/122 corrected time under any conditions.
Hi! Rating has nothing to do with the length of the boat itself meaning that smaller boats can have ratings bigger than bigger boats. Only when the boats are identical in type and very near in performance, size will be a determinant factor. Regarding the J111 and J122 they are different types of boats.

That is quite confusing on J boats because they don't make any kind of distinction in the name but while the J111 is much of a racer with a skeleton interior with the minimum necessary for offshore racing the J122 is a performance cruiser with a good quality cruising interior. I would not be surprised if the J111 proved faster in almost all conditions in real time than the J122.

Take a look at this post that I posted on another thread about Jboats and their relative performance:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding J boats there is many times a big confusion and with a certain reason:

The boats have a similar look and contrary to other brands that somehow identify by the name racers and performance cruisers( like for instance Xyachts that have XR, XP and XC), J boats don't do it, they just are J boats, racers and performance cruisers alike.

But if you look at the interiors it is easy to separate racers from performance cruisers:

J105





J111





J109







J122







J133





So, yes, you can cruise in a J105 or J111 but even if they have the minimum indispensable (they are offshore racers) you can only do that in a spartan kind of way.

The J109, J122 and J133 even if they were utilized mainly for racing have a good cruising interior, can cruise comfortably like that and they can be easily improved with added tankage and some minor improvements. They are a great base for a great a seaworthy and fast performance cruiser and with some luck they can even have been rigged already that way.
Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-25-2013 at 08:17 AM.
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  #3752  
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Vendee Globe

Now that it is finished, a nice resume of the race with all the great images:

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Re: J Boats & ratings

We raced & cruised a J/130 for many years - in the right breeze on the right course it had few peers but it certainly wasn't optimised for IRC out of the factory, which could get frustrating in mixed fleet club racing.

J boats got better clued onto IRC in the last 10 years (catching up to X yachts) - especially for lighter wind conditions when asymetric kites/retractable bowsprits on cruiser-racers over 10 metres had struggled to keep ahead (on time) on the downwind legs.

Asym kites have become more common place now but many of those newer boats / one-offs are also optimised better for IRC. The other big variable with 10m+ yachts, esp on short courses is whether your crew are good enough to sail to the rating ! Sometimes difficult to assess if no others of the same design in your fleet.
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Ratings: ORCI versus IRC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapwraia View Post
We raced & cruised a J/130 for many years - in the right breeze on the right course it had few peers but it certainly wasn't optimised for IRC out of the factory, which could get frustrating in mixed fleet club racing.

J boats got better clued onto IRC in the last 10 years (catching up to X yachts) - especially for lighter wind conditions when asymetric kites/retractable bowsprits on cruiser-racers over 10 metres had struggled to keep ahead (on time) on the downwind legs.

Asym kites have become more common place now but many of those newer boats / one-offs are also optimised better for IRC. ....
What about ORCI in US?

In Europe it is winning rapidly acceptance over IRC. On the Sydney-Hobart race the number of boats racing on ORCI is becoming bigger each year. They have made in 2011 some interesting comparisons between the two rating systems:

Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule :

With the introduction of the ORCi, offered by the Offshore Racing Council (ORC) as the replacement for IMS, a number of owners (amongst those Syd Fischer) have been in recent years expressing their preference for a measured, transparent rating rule. ...

It seems the number of boats entered under ORCi is slowly but surely growing, with 38 boats this year ticking both IRC and ORCi options.

The winner of the Sydney Hobart race has won in both IRC and ORC although they are two fundamentally different systems. It will be interesting to compare the two sets of results at the end of this year’s race.

We talked to Matt Allen pre-Hobart about the two rules.

He explained ‘ORCi addresses stability issues where IRC doesn’t. The ORCi stability index is derived from the old IMS stability index which is something that we all know and trust in a comprehensive fashion. It’s used today to determine whether boats meet the stability requires for the Hobart race.

‘ORCi is a transparent rule while IRC is not. There are pros and cons for each rule.

‘I think also measuring the stability is a good thing as long as stability is encouraged. We don’t want to go back to sailing tippy boats. IMS, people thought it was in some respects a good rule but didn’t encourage boats to be stable and didn’t move with the times and possibly didn’t encourage boats to be quick as much as one might have wanted them to be.

‘I think IRC encouraged quick boats at 50 foot plus and has traditionally not encouraged boats under 50 feet or under 45 feet to be all that fast.

‘There is a comment from a lot of countries where they believe that the racer cruiser is more fairly treated in ORCi than IRC.

'They tend to think that some production boats do well under IRC while other brands do not seem to be nearly as well handicapped. Under ORCi they are possibly more evenly treated. ....

Dobbs Davis from the Offshore Rating Council commented ‘ORC seems to be doing a better job across a broader range of boat types than some of the other rating rules. ...

‘Back in the days of IMS in the late 90s and early 2000s the measurement of stability was there but it was not accurately modelled in the performance of the VPP so the designers have worked around it.

‘That's been gone since 2007 when the ORC invested heavily in better analysis to produce much more accurate results.

‘Under ORCi Fast boats do fine and slow boats do fine. That's the challenge of all these rules, to make them work across the range of boat types. It is a challenge for sure but based on the results that we saw from the recent World Championships where we had 119 boats from 16 countries and in which we had that broad range of boat types, it seems to be working and it seems to be fair.

...

‘It’s a scientific based system with no politics, no guessing. The rule is downloadable.

‘Boats are entering ORCi because they get a certificate anyway to get the stability.


Sail-World.com : Rolex Sydney Hobart 2011 ORCi versus IRC as handicap rule


and how about a single world rating system?

The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) and Union Nationale pour La Course au
Large (UNCL), joint owners of the IRC rating rule, have been in discussion with the
Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) about the possibility of creating a unified
organisation to govern yacht ratings worldwide. This initiative to bring the world
offshore rating systems together was endorsed by ISAF following its AGM in 2009 in
Korea.

The intention is for RORC/UNCL and ORC to create a joint venture company which
would run the existing rules, IRC and ORC and then in time, using the combined
knowledge and resources, evolve new rating systems that combine the benefits of
IRC and ORC to create fast, fun and seaworthy boats for unified competition all over
the world.


http://www.nrv.de/uploads/media/PressreleaseRORC.pdf

http://www.rorcrating.com/images/sto...a_101115_3.pdf
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  #3755  
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Intermezzo

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Re: Ratings: ORCI versus IRC

[QUOTE=PCP;1007699]What about ORCI in US?

In Europe it is winning rapidly acceptance over IRC. On the Sydney-Hobart race the number of boats racing on ORCI is becoming bigger each year. They have made in 2011 some interesting comparisons between the two rating systems



I'm not so familiar with ORCI but we're now doing J/22 one-design for weekend club racing and it's a breath of fresh air - close racing on the water, enjoyable camarderie and low cost. All of which frees up time & $ to focus on a serious cruising boat
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Dufour 410

Dufour had made a great come back from its financial troubles a year ago: the 36p was boat of the year and they renovated their entire Grand Large line with new models.

We had already talked about the 500, lets talk about the 410, a very nice and modern boat, very well designed on the interior and hull design. A Felci design and a particularly elegant one. The boat follows the general tendency regarding beamy boats with beam brought back. That would give a particularly forgiving boat, an easy one to sail, not particularly good in light winds or upwind sailing but very stable downwind or in any other situation.

It is on the heavy side of cruisers, this one is 1430kg heavier than the previous model, the 405 and it is now more heavier than Bavaria 40 or a Hanse 415. It is hard to understand that huge difference in weight.

The D/B ratio is normal from this kind of boats and keels (28%) and with big beam (4.20m) and displacement it will provide a big stability to this boat.

It has only 71 sqm of sail and that will mot make it a fast boat at least with weaker winds. A very conservative boat with looks that seem to deny that.

The interior looks very bright and tidy. They opted for a spacious galley that will give plenty space to the saloon but that will shine on anchor or at the marina. No support at all to cook while sailing on the wrong tack.

















410 - Grand Large - DUFOUR Yachts



I am a bit confused about the type of sailors that they are targeting with this boat. I mean the conservative side versus modern looks. Maybe they are right and know what they are doing. I guess i will have to wait to see if the boat will sell well or not.


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Hanse 415

A test, now on line, by YachtingMonthy that confirms my opinion about the boat:

Among the mass production mainstream 40fts this one is one of the best if not the best for bluewater sailing. The test is made by Chris Beenson that is a very conservative sailor, very British in that sense and it is nice to see that he gives 5 stars (the maximum) in what regards trade wind voyaging and 4 stars in what regards offshore passage making.

http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/pdf/2012-06-07_181613.pdf




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Last edited by PCP; 03-26-2013 at 10:40 AM.
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Fox 10.20 Capado

And they are almost finishing their circumnavigation.

Sailing from Brazil to Grenade:



They went fast: Average speed on 2127 NM - 8.0K Not bad for a 10m cruising boat circumnavigating and with the needed charge for doing it.

By the way the owners of Capado, a young couple, are doing this project on a sabatic year and to have money for it they half build their boat and they are going to sell it at the end of their voyage. Could be interesting for someone looking to a small fast bluewater boat ready to go for another circumnavigation and with all problems sorted out.

...
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"Kiwi Spirit" Paris 63 (Farr designed) - 'green' Circimnavigation

Here is an interesting campaign. Any comment on this boat design? "A dual-purpose boat."



Kiwi Spirit: A 63-foot Globe Girdler from Lyman-Morse | Cruising World
"Paris 63, designed by the engineers at Farr Yacht Design ... Stanley’s boat—the appropriately named Kiwi Spirit ... is fit out as a lavishly appointed cruising boat with full amenities, including staterooms, a powerful diesel, a generator, refrigeration.... However, when Stanley takes off for the high seas, almost all of it will be gone.... the modular furniture and the heavy-duty machinery—can be removed via the companionway ... goals will be the first-ever completion of a completely green, non-stop and non-assisted passage, with nary a drop of fuel aboard. Instead, for power, he will rely on a suite of solar panels, a series of wind generators, and a quartet of hydro-generators, the juice from which will be stored in a bank of ion phosphate batteries ... Kiwi Spirit, with a lifting keel and a convertible interior, is most certainly the definition of a dual-purpose boat."

Dr. Stanley Paris - Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

Built in Maine by Lyman-Morse
Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

Fair winds, Dr. Paris
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