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  #3761  
Old 03-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Here's the only underwater view I could find on this project..

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/...217_143842.pdf
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  #3762  
Old 03-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
Here is an interesting campaign. Any comment on this boat design? "A dual-purpose boat."



Kiwi Spirit: A 63-foot Globe Girdler from Lyman-Morse | Cruising World
"Paris 63, designed by the engineers at Farr Yacht Design ... Stanley’s boat—the appropriately named Kiwi Spirit ... is fit out as a lavishly appointed cruising boat with full amenities, including staterooms, a powerful diesel, a generator, refrigeration.... However, when Stanley takes off for the high seas, almost all of it will be gone.... the modular furniture and the heavy-duty machinery—can be removed via the companionway ... goals will be the first-ever completion of a completely green, non-stop and non-assisted passage, with nary a drop of fuel aboard. Instead, for power, he will rely on a suite of solar panels, a series of wind generators, and a quartet of hydro-generators, the juice from which will be stored in a bank of ion phosphate batteries ... Kiwi Spirit, with a lifting keel and a convertible interior, is most certainly the definition of a dual-purpose boat."

Dr. Stanley Paris - Kiwi Spirit, a custom designed 63-foot yacht

Built in Maine by Lyman-Morse
Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

Fair winds, Dr. Paris
Interesting stuff. Thanks for having posted about it.

Nice boat but no secrets here. Farr had chose for the job a boat clearly inspired on Open 60's (he designed a few), almost as beamy with about the same draft (keel down), torpedo keel and two rudders.

Obviously Paris is after some kind of record otherwise he could ave just picked a standard 60ft Aluminium Cigale and do the same with a fraction of the cost (putting all the stuff the boat needs to be autonomous).

I guess that autonomy would be the main problem. If the Acciona would not have capsized (after having lost its keel) already near the end of its circumnavigation there would have no record to beat, except the one in what regards age and regarding those kinds of records, I mean kinder garden girls circumnavigating and old men for a reference time, well, I have already said what I think and I don't like it.

Everything will go alright if the hidrogenerateurs are working bur we saw on the Vendee Globe that some had big troubles with them (hitting debris) and if they are gone it would be difficult or impossible to get the needed energy.

Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60. On the next Vendee Globe, if not soon, somebody is going to finish what Acciona was close to do and beat by far the time he can make with that boat, even if a fast boat for a cruising one.

Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013

Anyway, the best of luck to him even if doing that with 76 years does not seem reasonable to me. There are no miracles and a man with 76 years is more prone to all kind of health problems and requires to be checked regularly not to mention more fragile bones and a bigger risk of breaking one due to an accidental fall. We are talking about being probably 5 months without any kind of assistance. On a 76 year old man that is a big risk, far bigger than the one of having problems with the boat (energy problems apart).

Anyway, the boat looks great even if I don't understand why the water length was not maximized. Maybe it has to do with the personal taste of Paris in what regards the shape of the bow. I cannot see any other explanation for Farr to have used an old bow shape on a modern boat.











Regards

Paulo
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  #3763  
Old 03-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

the discussion of the Watt&sea hydrogenerator is also interesting:

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/...217_143912.pdf

The boat is also being proposed (with a bit of reading between the lines) as a production prototype: "A successful circumnavigation will demonstrate that with modern design and at a reasonable cost a boat can be produced in the United States that can solo circumnavigate, entirely green and in record time thus demonstrating a fast short handed family cruiser. ... All cruise boats should be capable of being sailed solo. Even if there are three on board." []Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine

And one notices with near amazement the absence of corporate logos plastered everywhere. Considering the times we live in, there seem several unique aspects to the project, and campaign.

Oh Paulo, you wrote: "Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60." But I think Paris makes the point (as you have) that at his age and thus ability, he wants a certain comfort and safety level or cushion. And he seems hardly decrepit! He has every possibility of achieving his goals, and so what if they are exceeded later? That seems always the case, as time marches on. To my eye, well the boat looks fantastic.

Last edited by Daily Alice; 03-27-2013 at 04:05 AM. Reason: repose to Paulo
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  #3764  
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Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

and a girl, on his firs Transat, a Norwegian:

Kristin Songe-Moller (Sponsor Me): "Going into my first transatlantic race, the weather is complicated and hard and is not easy to understand. This week, it felt like I was running around in all directions, unable to do whatever I wanted to finish. I am preparing myself for a hard few days and I'm feeling a lot of stress because my goal is to really get to the finish. My boat is not as well prepared as the favourites and my sails are already worn, so I have to protect them for as long as possible. It would be catastrophic for me not to make it to Fort-de-France. I have put all my savings into taking part in this race. I cannot imagine giving up."

Figaro Transat Bretagne-Martinique 2013 start | The Daily Sail
Six days into the race Kristin lost the mast.
She managed to rig a jury rig and she is now sailing towards Portugal.
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  #3765  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
...

The boat is also being proposed (with a bit of reading between the lines) as a production prototype: "A successful circumnavigation will demonstrate that with modern design and at a reasonable cost a boat can be produced in the United States that can solo circumnavigate, entirely green and in record time thus demonstrating a fast short handed family cruiser. ... All cruise boats should be capable of being sailed solo. Even if there are three on board." []Lyman Morse Boatbuilding - Kiwi Spirit/Paris 63 - Thomaston, Maine
Yes Alice, I has saying, the point is not US not being able to do such a boat. That is ridiculous. US produces some of the best boats around, unfortunately not mass produced ones in my opinion. What US brands need is to command designs to top designers and that is what did Paris. If Catalina or Hunter does the same there will be a huge increase in produced boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
....
Oh Paulo, you wrote: "Anyway if what Paris wants is a reference time he should do it on a racing Open 60." But I think Paris makes the point (as you have) that at his age and thus ability, he wants a certain comfort and safety level or cushion. And he seems hardly decrepit! He has every possibility of achieving his goals, and so what if they are exceeded later? That seems always the case, as time marches on. To my eye, well the boat looks fantastic.
Maybe you have understand me wrongly. When someone wants to achieve something it is important to understand what is the achievement. If what he pretends is to establish some sort of geriatric record regarding circumnavigating solo he could have done it at a third of the price (or less) on the several boats available on the market, specially as you point out, he is has no sponsorship.

Regarding comfort, speed doesn't go with comfort and his boat is a very fast one, a very radical performance cruiser. He would be a lot more comfortable in a slower and less extreme boat. If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go. If sailed conservatively and with a smaller rig it would not be harder to sail that this one, quite the contrary, since the sail area would be a lot smaller and the stability bigger. One that goes for a 4 months speed record has not has his main priority comfort. that is just what I meant.

Regarding age the most famous sailor is Sato, a Japanese one and I don't think that he does that for fame or for breaking geriatric records since he has circumnavigated already 8 times. He does that because he likes to do that and has done that repeatedly, racing and cruising. Even so on his last circumnavigation against the prevailing winds at the age of 77 he experienced an emergency hernia operation, back pain and a knee operation. Heart tablets had also to be delivered.

Paris is an experienced sailor (three North Atlantic crossings, three from Alaska to New Zealand and one circumnavigation) but contrary to Sato he is not an experienced solo sailor.

I hope everything goes well for him but has I have said I do not support geriatric records or infantile ones. In the first case its seems to me that the risks related with health hazard are dis-proportionally high and that makes just no sense.

By the way, by his own words he is trying to beat 4 records:


1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop (by some 18 years)

2 - Fastest in a cruising boat – the record is 150 days and I am shooting for 120-days, from Bermuda back to Bermuda aiming for Dodge Morgan’s record from 1986.

3 - New record to be established from St. Augustine, Florida and back again via Bermuda (no-stopping there)

4 - First ever green using no hydrocarbons, no gas, no diesel. Not even propane or butane.


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-27-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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  #3766  
Old 03-27-2013
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Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
Six days into the race Kristin lost the mast.
She managed to rig a jury rig and she is now sailing towards Portugal.
Those are really bad news. She wanted so much to finish that race

She had invested everything on that boat. Really sad for her.

Nice to see that someone else is following the race:

http://transat-bretagnemartinique.geovoile.com/2013/

It seems that after two big storms they have now an easy way to America. The race has been great. I am a fan of Tabarly, the one that is currently in third. He is the descendant of a great family of professional sailors and I would love to see him raise to that very exclusive first division, racing with the best, on Open 60.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-27-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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  #3767  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Though I do not support geriatric egos and the men and women my age (61) or older breaking records. But I do hope that Mr Paris breaks Dodge Morgans record. Dodge Morgan was a true New Englander and a fine sailor for his time. I enjoyed the film made of his record sail back in the 80's, that I believe was one of the first attempts at modern day sailing with electronic instrumentation. Mr Paris looks like a fine man I wish him well and good health.

And I like the non advertising on Paris's boat also, you would think he was a Yankee New Englander too.
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  #3768  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo,

You seem to have some animus about the age of Dr. Paris? It seems solo sailing circumnavigation for records is risky enough, so I suppose age is one additional risk factor. You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Maybe you have understand me wrongly. When someone wants to achieve something it is important to understand what is the achievement. If what he pretends is to establish some sort of geriatric record regarding circumnavigating solo he could have done it at a third of the price (or less) on the several boats available on the market, specially as you point out, he is has no sponsorship.
I can see your point in the abstract, yet I think there are evident answers to your question in the actual boat, as designed. What was designed is, rather obviously what he wanted, don't you think? From this evidence we can use inductive logic to at least partially hypothesize the reasons and rationales for the desired design brief. And in fact on some counts (like this is a cruising boat and "dual purpose") it seems life neither begins nor ends for this boat or skipper with this particular campaign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding comfort, speed doesn't go with comfort and his boat is a very fast one, a very radical performance cruiser. He would be a lot more comfortable in a slower and less extreme boat. If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go.
Of course, it may be that he wishes to be as comfortable as possible. This begs the question, how much more "comfort" does this Paris 65 afford, compared with a more pure race boat, as you suggest, for a record? Do you have an opinion on this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If what he wants is a performance record that goes with his geriatric record than an adapted solo race boat would be the way to go. If sailed conservatively and with a smaller rig it would not be harder to sail that this one, quite the contrary, since the sail area would be a lot smaller and the stability bigger. One that goes for a 4 months speed record has not has his main priority comfort. that is just what I meant.
Looking at this design, one question I have -- not knowing so much about many new technologies (materials, construction, hydrodynamics, etc.), is to what extent is this boat presenting something new? Can it be compared to other existing models (such as the many you present in this thread)? And, let's examine if there is a new feature -- like that you can remove the interior? It seems a bit out of the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding age the most famous sailor is Sato, a Japanese one and I don't think that he does that for fame or for breaking geriatric records since he has circumnavigated already 8 times. He does that because he likes to do that and has done that repeatedly, racing and cruising.
Yes, and he is really a hero in my adopted country. Well, many sailors seem rather eccentric, and I include myself in this determination. I think to myself, if I had the juice, financially, physically, and with experience -- wouldn't it be interesting to not just "go gentle into that good night"? Personally, I cut a lot of slack for vision. And the good Doctor will be teaching students along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Even so on [Sato's] last circumnavigation against the prevailing winds at the age of 77 he experienced an emergency hernia operation, back pain and a knee operation. Heart tablets had also to be delivered.
Sato is such an unusual case. I mean stuff [insert stronger vocab. here] happens when you spend literally decades at sea . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Paris is an experienced sailor (three North Atlantic crossings, three from Alaska to New Zealand and one circumnavigation) but contrary to Sato he is not an experienced solo sailor.
Maybe the boat design is related to meshing with Paris' capabilities. As you point out, above, he has massive experience and may really know (have a good idea) what will work, for him? And there is the team effort -- and some designer named Farr, hmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I hope everything goes well for him but has I have said I do not support geriatric records or infantile ones. In the first case its seems to me that the risks related with health hazard are dis-proportionally high and that makes just no sense.
I am pretty neutral on the geriatric side. Because mid-70s these days does not always mean geriatric, in the sense you seem to imply (like: foolhardy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
By the way, by his own words he is trying to beat 4 records:

1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop (by some 18 years)

2 - Fastest in a cruising boat – the record is 150 days and I am shooting for 120-days, from Bermuda back to Bermuda aiming for Dodge Morgan’s record from 1986.

3 - New record to be established from St. Augustine, Florida and back again via Bermuda (no-stopping there)

4 - First ever green using no hydrocarbons, no gas, no diesel. Not even propane or butane.
Right--so #2 has something to do with the design choice, also that after completion, the boat wants to re-convert back into an awesome world cruiser? Not a bad, if you can have it.

Do you think there are innovations on the green side, here? I mean not just new technologies, but a kind of systems integration?
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  #3769  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Though I do not support geriatric egos and the men and women my age (61) or older breaking records. But I do hope that Mr Paris breaks Dodge Morgans record. Dodge Morgan was a true New Englander and a fine sailor for his time. I enjoyed the film made of his record sail back in the 80's, that I believe was one of the first attempts at modern day sailing with electronic instrumentation. Mr Paris looks like a fine man I wish him well and good health.

And I like the non advertising on Paris's boat also, you would think he was a Yankee New Englander too.
Don't take me wrong I do have an huge respect and admiration for those that with an advanced age (for the Sport they practice) beat themselves with younger and apparently more fit sportsmen in equal terms for absolute records or race results more even if they prove to be better.

The issue here for me is a specific record based not on performance but on the age of the one that is establishing it and that is his main priority and the first one on his list of achievements:

1 - Oldest to have circumnavigated non-stop.

I have an huge respect and admiration by sailors like 69 year old Loick Peyron that last year beat the absolute (crewed) world circumnavigation record or 57 year old Francis Joyon that 5 years ago beat the absolute solo circumnavigation record, some month ago beat the central solo Atlantic record and that is waiting a good meteo window for the North Atlantic record.

But a 76 old man being competitive solo sailing in absolute terms competing with younger sailors? No way. I don't believe that even one of the greatest sailing champions like Loick Peyron would be competitive with 69 solo sailing.

A record based on performance for an advanced age has no meaning to me. What about an athletics 100m record time for 70 year old men and to 80 and 90 year's old men. That seems ridiculous and it is ridiculous in my opinion.

I have the utmost respect for the ones that with old age keep on cruising for the pleasure of cruising and voyaging and I know of some with more than 80 and I only hope to be able to do the same, but someone that at the age of 76 is trying to establish a sail record for his age seems to me only be doing a foolish thing, no different to try to establish any other sports record for an advanced age.

Enough of this. Everybody can have its own opinion about this, but if someone wishes to discuss this further please open a thread about the value and interest of relative records based on advanced age performance, sailing or otherwise.

Regards

Paulo
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  #3770  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
Hi Paulo,
....
Do you think there are innovations on the green side, here? I mean not just new technologies, but a kind of systems integration?
I don't know if they are innovative they say very little about it but if they permit the boat to circumnavigate, yes. That is for me the interesting part of this circumnavigation and one that we all can profit.

If you have following this thread you have seen the systems Acciona had in board to produce energy and they seemed to work and make possible a circumnavigation. Here there is not the energy required by a canting keel but the fact that it will take a lot longer to circumnavigate makes it equally interesting.

Very few information regarding the electric systems:

http://www.lymanmorse.com/documents/...217_143912.pdf

Except the hidrogenerators that are used here on Ocean racing and cruising for some years now. But that would not be enough, I guess he is using very expensive lithium batteries and I would like to know more about that, the number and type, the type and power of electric engine and the back up power system. Acciona used for that electricity produced by a sophisticated chemical way. I wonder what they will use on this boat.

Regards

Paulo
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