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  #3771  
Old 03-27-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Hannah,

I am by birth a New Englander too (emoticon of 'pride' here). we must be careful not to go OT on this thread but I'd like to thank you for mentioning
-- a little history doesn't hurt. (The film is linked on the wiki page.)

This is a thread about interesting production sailboats, though in 400+ pages it's traversed some interesting fringes. When I contemplate the Paris 65, I wonder if it can be seen as a (potential) proof of concept for the older sailor, and a green sailor. What I mean is:

Easily sailed solo
Offshore capable
Does not require 20-30-something physical strength to operate
Performance cruising in modern speed terms
Relatively affordable (as stated)
Green is rather attractive, don't you think?
Works for the older capable sailor

I would like to add a comment: I live in Kyushu, and crew on various boats. The skipper/owners are mostly in their 70s. They love sailing and are very experienced. The economy crashed here in 1997, so boats are at least 18 years old. There are almost no young people who are into sailing/racing where I am. On a personal note, I'm in my 50s and I hope to sail my boat in my 70s too. In this thread we don't discuss generally the older sailor in relation to new production boats -- I mean sailors who may like to day race and/or go offshore. And it's hard for me to tell which boats in this thread would be pragmatic, in this sense -- just saying.

Well, many people are pretty spry here into their 80s, and the skipper of the J/120 I crewed on this past weekend is a gem, in his 70s. We are talking soul and culture, and expertise. I learn so much from him. And older folks want good boats too I guess.

Anyway, yachting is collapsing here, and this is the sad truth. Sorry for my hijack of this thread... but to return on-topic, now the point has been raised, I wonder what new boats I'd recommend to my 70s skipper of a J/120, so he can sail as he likes into his 80s. Seriously. And I mean, are there some good examples already presented in this thread? Which would you (Paulo, anyone) suggest, if you don't object to the question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Though I do not support geriatric egos and the men and women my age (61) or older breaking records. But I do hope that Mr Paris breaks Dodge Morgans record. Dodge Morgan was a true New Englander and a fine sailor for his time. I enjoyed the film made of his record sail back in the 80's, that I believe was one of the first attempts at modern day sailing with electronic instrumentation. Mr Paris looks like a fine man I wish him well and good health.

And I like the non advertising on Paris's boat also, you would think he was a Yankee New Englander too.

Last edited by Daily Alice; 03-27-2013 at 10:39 AM. Reason: fix spelling
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Sailboats to old sailors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
Thanks Hannah,

....

This is a thread about interesting production sailboats, though in 400+ pages it's traversed some interesting fringes. When I contemplate the Paris 65, I wonder if it can be seen as a (potential) proof of concept for the older sailor, and a green sailor. What I mean is:

Easily sailed solo
Offshore capable
Does not require 20-30-something physical strength to operate
Performance cruising in modern speed terms
Relatively affordable (as stated)
Green is rather attractive, don't you think?
Works for the older capable sailor

I would like to add a comment: I live in Kyushu, and crew on various boats. The skipper/owners are mostly in their 70s. They love sailing and are very experienced. The economy crashed here in 1997, so boats are at least 18 years old. There are almost no young people who are into sailing/racing where I am. On a personal note, I'm in my 50s and I hope to sail my boat in my 70s too. In this thread we don't discuss generally the older sailor in relation to new production boats -- I mean sailors who may like to day race and/or go offshore. And it's hard for me to tell which boats in this thread would be pragmatic, in this sense -- just saying.

Well, many people are pretty spry here into their 80s, and the skipper of the J/120 I crewed on this past weekend is a gem, in his 70s. We are talking soul and culture, and expertise. I learn so much from him. And older folks want good boats too I guess.

Anyway, yachting is collapsing here, and this is the sad truth. Sorry for my hijack of this thread... but to return on-topic, now the point has been raised, I wonder what new boats I'd recommend to my 70s skipper of a J/120, so he can sail as he likes into his 80s. Seriously. And I mean, are there some good examples already presented in this thread? Which would you (Paulo, anyone) suggest, if you don't object to the question?
Alice you are very much welcome, as anyone else, to this this thread. I just didn't want to start here a discussion about the merits of sailing records based on age: very young or very old. Not that it is not an interesting debate but not as a main focus on this thread.

I guess that the question you asked is a good one but without a single answer. That depends very much on the sailor experience, tastes and the use he is going to give to the boat, if he is going to sail it solo or with crew..

Almost all mass production boat production are made with the older sailor and short crew (or solo) in mind because it is them that have the money and are buying the boats so I would say if he is going to buy a modern boat almost any mass production boat particularly 40ft and over are suited, depending on the options, unless he wants particular uses to the boat (racing, bluewater cruising, voyaging).

Particularly I would prefer a smaller performance boat (38ft) with less mechanical assistance (electrical winches, assisted docking and so on) but I am part of a minority.

Some that sail solo would even prefer a smaller boat (32 to 36ft) but normally it is the best sailors, I mean among the older ones, that chose smaller boats, boats that they can completely exploit and that their knowledge permits to sail safely and fast. However a bigger boat, even if not so fun and in many cases not as fast, will have a bigger safety margin to a less knowledgeable sailor. The same can be said generically regarding heavier boats face to lighter boats, if the sail area is not much different.

Not knowing the sailor or his tastes and assuming a really old one (70 or so) a conservative taste, a typical cruising program, a quality slightly above the usual and a reasonable dealership in the US I would say this one:







The boat is made by Hanse and your friend will have the pleasure of sailing in a boat designed by an American Na, one that normally design bigger yachts, Bill Dixon.

http://sailing.com.ua/files/1/moody4...ure_eng_08.pdf

If you search on this thread you will find more information.

Of course, if at 70 he feels the strength and the desire to do long voyages to remote places, than talk to Hannah, I guess that he has one of the boats that it is fit for that, even if the sailor is not young anymore. As I said most of those boats, even voyage boats are bought bu people over 50 so they are thought to be easily sailed.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-27-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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  #3773  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daily Alice View Post
Thanks Hannah,

I am by birth a New Englander too (emoticon of 'pride' here). we must be careful not to go OT on this thread but I'd like to thank you for mentioning Dodge Morgan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia -- a little history doesn't hurt. (The film is linked on the wiki page.)

This is a thread about interesting production sailboats, though in 400+ pages it's traversed some interesting fringes. When I contemplate the Paris 65, I wonder if it can be seen as a (potential) proof of concept for the older sailor, and a green sailor. What I mean is:

Easily sailed solo
Offshore capable
Does not require 20-30-something physical strength to operate
Performance cruising in modern speed terms
Relatively affordable (as stated)
Green is rather attractive, don't you think?
Works for the older capable sailor

I would like to add a comment: I live in Kyushu, and crew on various boats. The skipper/owners are mostly in their 70s. They love sailing and are very experienced. The economy crashed here in 1997, so boats are at least 18 years old. There are almost no young people who are into sailing/racing where I am. On a personal note, I'm in my 50s and I hope to sail my boat in my 70s too. In this thread we don't discuss generally the older sailor in relation to new production boats -- I mean sailors who may like to day race and/or go offshore. And it's hard for me to tell which boats in this thread would be pragmatic, in this sense -- just saying.

Well, many people are pretty spry here into their 80s, and the skipper of the J/120 I crewed on this past weekend is a gem, in his 70s. We are talking soul and culture, and expertise. I learn so much from him. And older folks want good boats too I guess.

Anyway, yachting is collapsing here, and this is the sad truth. Sorry for my hijack of this thread... but to return on-topic, now the point has been raised, I wonder what new boats I'd recommend to my 70s skipper of a J/120, so he can sail as he likes into his 80s. Seriously. And I mean, are there some good examples already presented in this thread? Which would you (Paulo, anyone) suggest, if you don't object to the question?
I don't think you are hijacking the thread at all. When we get to that age where things are very different than when we were 40 or younger both physically and mentally then we should be looking at what we are sailing and why. One more thing is I get turned off by those who believe we are young at an old age. I do not think so, yes at 61 I'm younger and in far better health than my parents. But I feel always we must be honest and understand we are not so young. Physically I workout every day at the gym, workout with my athletes in track and field doing plyometrics. Mentally I read constantly and do as much as I can to keep the brain strong and alert. But I know damn well I can not handle certain situations like I could at 40, handle them yes but not as well. Now when I cross oceans and understand my age and its pluses and it minuses I can prepare so much better than if I foolishly thought I still 40. Every morning I wake up with some ach or pain, I don't sleep as well as I use to. I just have to say to myself, "yes I'm getting really old but so what find a real way of dealing with it and move on." I hope that one day down the road that if need be I will recognize when I'm too old to do what we are about to do again and go back home to growing veggies. I do not want some awful accident or heart attack in the wrong situation to put my wife in a serious situation. That is why I worry about some geriactics egos, they don't know when to quit.

Before we decided on our new boat my wife and I discussed if the design would be suitable for our age. I went over to France and did sea trials and came back convinced that the new boat is easier to sail both physically and mentally than the more traditional blue water boat we have sailed in the past. The boat tracks so well and easily, the sail plan and setup works very well only going on deck to reef. The doghouse gives us a watch station that is out of the weather without compromising the boats design. Even in the tropics a couple of days of rough weather and spray coming into the cockpit can make for cold and uncomfortable sailing which makes one far more tired and that's not good with days to go on a passage. The boat is faster than our previous boats and it took me years of sailing to be convinced that is important but it really is don't let anyone ever tell you differently. Having the centerboard design we feel we can find more secure anchorages out of the weather when the shat hits the fan. Not always the case but having that option and using it when possible sure beats having to scramble to put out second anchors, worrying as much about dragging every time bad weather hits in some atoll or bay surrounded by large mountains and down drafts. Also as I get older I don't know if I'm as good of a docker as I used to be so having the aluminum hull I can bang into things a little more than I use to.

I know there is going to be for a long while many on this side of the pond especially who will always believe that new design is bad and the old ways good. In some cases they are right but many times they are not. I'm just glad that in countries like NZ, Aussyland, S. Africa and Europe there are people who want to try and improve on the old and many time do just that. And thank you Paulo once again for giving a heads up to many new designs from around the world.
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Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Those are really bad news. She wanted so much to finish that race

She had invested everything on that boat. Really sad for her.

Nice to see that someone else is following the race:

Transat Bretagne Martinique 2013

It seems that after two big storms they have now an easy way to America. The race has been great. I am a fan of Tabarly, the one that is currently in third. He is the descendant of a great family of professional sailors and I would love to see him raise to that very exclusive first division, racing with the best, on Open 60.

Regards

Paulo
Sorry if I'm wearing this thread off course..
Found this post here Kristin Songe-MÝller om mastebruddet : kappseiling.no Ė seiling og kappseiling

I think this text can stand without any comments..
Quote:
First of all, Iíd like to say that Iím well and there are no damages on my hull. Dispite the situation Iím in good spirit. Thereís not much I can do, but solve the situation in the best possible way. So, I was reaching, sailing about 12 knots. Windspeed about 27 knots. I had one reef in the main, and solent. (Iíd been doing some repairs of my mainsail the day and the night before, sewing and taping tears in the leach, and replacing the broken leachline with a new one, so I wanted to be a bit careful with my mainÖ) I was down below, just about to do a routing of how to sail around the highpressure in the Canaries, when I heared the big crash. From the corner of my eye, out of the window I sa w my green mainsail. I think I screamed and shouted whilst I, without even thinking, grabbed my toolbox and ran up into thecockpit. I did a quick check to see how the mast was lying in the water. Luckily it was not touching the hull. Then I started getting the rig off. I took with me the hacksaw, hammer and a pliar on deck. I used the pliar to take the splints out and the hammer to knock the bolts out. It was supprisingly easy. I cut all the ropes and wires with the cockpit-knife. As the sea was fairly big, I wanted to get the mast away from my boat as fast as possible, to prevent any damages on my hull. Then I called the race director. I didnít cry. I wasnít scared. I was suprisinglig cool and levelheaded. I was extremely focused on solving the problem in the best possible way. I removd the seal from my propeller shaft, and turned on the engine, whilst I started thinking about how to set a jury rig, using the spinnaker pole(s). Then the autopilot started akting up, because the NKE had no master. Luckily Iíve been working a fair bit on how the NKE-systemworks, thanks to good guidance from my training-partner, Arnaud Godart-Philippe. So it didnít take me too long to take out the wires from the mast units form the bus, the ones I had cut, and reinit the pilot dispay. I tided up the pole in the companionway. And used the storm-jib, fastened to the pole downhaul on the foredeck, the spinnakerpole in the companionay, and the cled in the spinnaker barber-block. Iím heading to Portugal. Hopefully Iíll get to Lagos without assistance. Itís a good marina, I was there in 1999 and 2000. My worries now, is what to do next. I knew it was a bit of a gamble spending all my money on the Transat, in hope of getting a sponsor. Now Iím pretty much f**ked for that. So I donít know what to do next. Iíll have to take one thing at the time. First getting my boat safely to shore, then ďhomeĒ to France. Kristin
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  #3775  
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Re: Transat Bretagne-Martinique

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
Sorry if I'm wearing this thread off course..
Found this post here Kristin Songe-MÝller om mastebruddet : kappseiling.no Ė seiling og kappseiling

I think this text can stand without any comments..
Not out of context at least on the broad one of this thread. I Follow solo races here if I find they interest others. Solo boats evolution has been a major influence on cruising boats and I find those races, in real time, professional ultra competitive sailors and boats with similar performance to be one of the more interesting on the sail racing panorama.

My worries now, is what to do next. I knew it was a bit of a gamble spending all my money on the Transat, in hope of getting a sponsor. Now Iím pretty much f**ked for that. So I donít know what to do next. Iíll have to take one thing at the time. First getting my boat safely to shore, then ďhomeĒ to France. Kristin

This just sucks. I hope this exposure contributes to find her a sponsor in Norway. I read that she was an Olympic sailor for Norway and that she had sailed all her live but the competition on the Figaro and the technical level is just huge. They are all professional and all trying to do their best and all of them sail and race since kids.

Even if she had a boat as well equipped as the others (and she hadn't decent sails) it would took her probably 2 or three years to be among the top. But she seems to have the needed determination let's see if Norway, I mean Sponsors, will provide her with the material conditions. I really hope so. Those series need to become international.

Regards

Paulo
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Thomas Coville

and talking about top solo sailors, one of the best and also one that has been on a bad luck run on the last years. Great images

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Bill Dixon isn't from the US, but from the UK.
Dixon Yacht Design
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Bill Dixon isn't from the US, but from the UK.
Dixon Yacht Design
You are right!

Regards

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Journeyman 60

Another interesting proposition as a voyage boat for high latitudes charter work:











This is a Swedish one off and it is meant to high latitude sailing. It is was an one off but I heard about the interest to build more.

The owner and co-designer says about it:

The Journeyman 60 yacht is designed by Jesper Weissglas. Every solution, every detail and every choice of materials is based on experience from over 30 000 nautical miles of adventure charter sailing in rough conditions, including the Across Greenland expedition with renowned Swedish adventurer Ola Skinnarmo.

Journeyman is the result of over 5 years of design work. Jesper is living his dream and his vision, but he has also had to deal with harsh economic realities and numbing obstacles – often no bigger than a single aluminum bolt. The process has involved some of Sweden’s sharpest minds on aeronautical and structural design – mostly without any other reward but the thrill of being part of a project beyond the ordinary. The underwater hull is based on research by Gabriel Heyman, and the appendages are designed in cooperation with Jens ÷sterlund.

The first yacht was built at the Alunaut Shipyard on Saaremaa in Estonia. The experienced team at the yard – accustomed to building performance workboats – put all their skills and raw enthusiasm into building Sweden’s first “extreme express cruiser”.

Why a new design?
Standard cruising yachts aren’t designed for rough adventures. As long as the weather is nice everything is fine. The crew is happy and life is comfortable. Then, as temperature drops and the low pressures start lining up, the drawbacks of any modern cruiser (with the words “luxurious interior” written in a prominent place in the sales brochure) become apparent.

When it’s 5įC, the rain is pouring and you’re beating to windward against a strong gale, you don’t care much for the luxurious interior. You do, however, care about the fact that the toilet can only be flushed on the starboard tack. Especially when you’ve been on the port tack for 14 hours. Or three days.

You care about there being nowhere to hang all your wet gear. Well, maybe you don’t, if the deck ventilators are so poorly designed that large waves washing over turn the salon into a shower anyway. And the uninsulated hull contributes with a little condensation rain on top of that. In fact, the hull condensation water might the only drinkable water you get, since the water-maker doesn’t work under speed because of the air bubbles in the inlet water.

This list just goes on and on. And with every new item the morale of the crew sinks lower. So, a great adventure charter journey needs a yacht designed for it. A yacht that takes care of the crew instead of having the crew take care of the yacht....

The Story Behind the Journeyman 60 | Journeyman 60

And the hull designer:

Journeyman is a purposeful design for shifting weather and high latitudes… aluminium hull, rather slender, with water ballast, retracting T-keel, careful engineering. Her pilothouse is a brutal design. As an expedition yacht, she is all about efficiency.

Jesper Weissglas’ hull for the Journeyman was a decent, ordinary, fast hull. Rather slender, but of very modern proportions. Blunt stem, wide stern, easy lines.

But over the past decade, we had been testing and tweaking the hull volumes, under water and above water, to make boats go faster offshore, with an easier motion and drier decks. In addition, the same changes made our designs easier on the helm and more directionally stable.
These new designs had been evaluated in a study at Chalmers University of Technology and, surprisingly, apart from having better handling and an easier motion, VMG was improved by approx. 4%. These results were also verified at SSPA, the test tank facility in GŲteborg.

I cannot remember now whether Jesper Weissglas had heard about these studies when he turned to us to confirm that the hull shape would work. But I said that Journeyman could be turned into a better boat, and that the difference would be significant. I guess he was thrilled by this option but he looked at me in disbelief. And replied that we were going to be challenged in such case and that he was going to perform a CFD study of our hull design alongside his own. This trial would have to confirm what I was trying to say.

As it turned out, the design suggested by us showed much lower drag....

Combined with the expected improvements in steering, motion in a seaway and slightly increased sail area, the overall gains seemed irresistible. ..

She is just the purposeful, benevolent, fast expedition yacht she was intended to be. And she is utterly comfortable at sea.


HEYMAN YACHT DESIGN: Expedition Yachts #1

Some facts, figures and dimensions:

http://journeyman.se/wp-content/uplo...0_leaflet4.pdf

Well, I like the concept, the interior feel and habitability inside that kind of WWII airplane bomber canopy but the look is too brutal for me. I would have made the same with a more traditional look. Besides that everything seems perfect for me, the speed, the seaworthiness and the small draft.

This is a type of boat different from the French deriveur concept of boats like The OVNI, Boreal or Allures.

The vantages and disadvantages:

Vantages:

with a very deep keel (1.8-3,8m) and a bulb at the end this boat has the potential to be much more powerful, fast and to point better upwind.

That potential for speed is increased by a much lesser weight in the needed ballast due to the point where it is collocated: 3.8m down versus on the bottom of the boat, or slightly below water line.

Disadvantages:

This type of construction makes for a considerably more expensive boat with added complexity and more maintenance.

When facing bad weather even if the boat has a bigger stability it cannot raise its keel to have a better dynamic stability and eliminate any tripping potential when pushed by a breaking wave. With this boat in bad weather the keel should stay down, otherwise the stability will be diminished, while on a French deriveur, because the ballast is not on the keel, the centerboard can be completely pulled up without any diminution on the boat stability.

A French Deriveur can be beached and has a considerable smaller draft than the one on this kind of boat.

To each one to know if the extra power, lesser weight and speed will compensate for the disadvantages. I guess that there will be opinions on both sides.


...
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Last edited by PCP; 03-28-2013 at 08:19 AM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I much appreciate reading your posts and all the information on your journey with Boreal -- one of the most amazing boats to be seen on this forum and thread, imho.

You wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
But I know damn well I can not handle certain situations like I could at 40, handle them yes but not as well. Now when I cross oceans and understand my age and its pluses and it minuses I can prepare so much better than if I foolishly thought I still 40. . . . That is why I worry about some geriatric egos, they don't know when to quit.
True for me too. One sailor I crewed for, in his 60s, bought a 42' Jeanneau cruiser a few years ago, and that boat is just too big for him -- watching him manhandle the halyards, etc. His dream has been to solo circumnavigate Japan, for a start -- the boat has 3 staterooms . . . maybe a 30-something vision in a 60-something body? Well, he will manage, just doesn't seem all that happy, to be frank. Experiencing things like this, I think long about how small a boat I would choose (finances aside!) for a Pacific Rim circumnavigation (starting on the North American West coast and ending eventually in Japan (not quite a circumnavigation then) Part of seaworthiness to my mind would be roll acceleration, motion comfort and staying dry wouldn't hurt. I am not sure which of these modern designs would meet all the specifics -- I am definitely not a "Moody" man -- not sure, because the music put me to sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
I know there is going to be for a long while many on this side of the pond especially who will always believe that new design is bad and the old ways good. In some cases they are right but many times they are not. I'm just glad that in countries like NZ, Aussyland, S. Africa and Europe there are people who want to try and improve on the old and many time do just that. And thank you Paulo once again for giving a heads up to many new designs from around the world.
Ditto. Really appreciate your comments and all that Paulo posts here. Definitely an inspiration.
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