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  #3821  
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Saare 41 AC and Swedestar 415

On another thread Rockdawg asked me to choice between a Moody 41AC and a Bavaria vision 42. I told him that they were two good sailboats but very different and that a comparison would not make much sense since they value different priorities, the Moody is more expensive and besides that my preference are not probably the same as his. My needs and tastes will probably be different and the ideal boat for me will be probably different than his ideal boat.

Talking about ideal boats, the truth is that personally none of those boats would fit my personal bill, even if I had the money to buy any of them I would no exchange them by my boat. Not even on a future perspective assuming that I am not going younger and probably it will make sense in the future a more conservative boat (well, when I am 80 year's old or something like that).

Regarding a more conservative perspective and thinking about future I could imagine me on a Xc 42 or even a Xc38. Of course they are so expensive that even if I had a lot more money I would question if that would be a wise choice. But if I need not to consider costs, there are some lucky guys in that situation, definitively they would be boats I would consider.

On a more modest perspective, I mean if I had the money to buy a Moody 41 I would certainly consider a Saare 41 AC as a cheap alternative to the Xc42. The boat has a modern hull but also classic lines, the kind that will not grow old and I like that and not only that on the Saare.

The difference in price for the Moody is not that much since on the Moody you have many extras that come already on the Saare. The differences between the Saare and the Moody have to do with more power on the Saare (even if it is heavier), more stability and all the gear you need to have a perfect control of the sails. I would be bored in the Moody with its simplistic sail shape controls. I like the Saare a lot more than the HR 415 that is a lot more expensive.

Saare 41 AC

MOVIE:

Estnische Baukunst: Saare 41 AC - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

But if I really had the money to buy a Xc 42 I guess that I would buy a Swedestar 415 instead. It has a huge stability and it is much more fun to sail than the Xc42 and comes also with a perfect cruising interior. I would only ask for that transom to be modified, not the hull that I like very much, but the way it is closed. I like it more open. That would not be difficult I am sure.

The Swedestar 415 has everything I like in a sailboat: Fast, comfortable, great upwind, huge stability (including reserve stability) a great cruising interior and of course, it is beautiful in a classic kind of way, one that will grow old with grace. My kind of old men's boat

Again, I am not saying that this is the logic choice to everybody. In fact it is not and it is not a question of money but a question of priorities. Money apart: If one dreams to sail to remote places this is not the indicated boat; If someone dreams to cruise and win races at top level, this is not the best boat either; If someone dreams to solo sail on the trade winds at planning speeds, this is not the right boat in fact this is not the right boat for most sailors just for some among them me and even in what regards me I am pretty sure that it would not be my ideal boat if I had 35 (I would want something more explosive and fast). T can see it as a boat for getting old with style and without being bored sailing slowly.

But I an not the only one that likes that boat. Just look at what the different test sailors said about it:

http://www.swedestar.se/Userfiles/Bi...p-jan-2013.jpg

Swedestar Yachts from Sweden by Lidköpings Båtsnickeri, for cruising, family and racing - Modell 415


MOVIE:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Schwedens-n...312739c81dd8cf


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Last edited by PCP; 04-03-2013 at 04:57 PM.
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  #3822  
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Re: Allures 45

Paulo,

What are you thoughts on having teak (or whatever teak looking materials are in use these days) on the decks?

I prefer less maintenance when given the choice and perhaps wouldn't mind it in the cockpit, but I'm not big on it covering the entire deck.

That's a beautiful Allure!
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Re: Allures 45

I hate it when I get to the last post!

Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in a thread about a boat project being contemplated. I've found it very enlightening in terms of thought process that goes into some decisions.

It's a 16 part series....so far.

Series: Boat Design & Selection – Adventure 40 «

Enjoy!

paul
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  #3824  
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Teak and cork.

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo,

What are you thoughts on having teak (or whatever teak looking materials are in use these days) on the decks?

I prefer less maintenance when given the choice and perhaps wouldn't mind it in the cockpit, but I'm not big on it covering the entire deck.
As you know many use teak on boats in Europe. I had teak on my previous boat (bought new and sold 8 years later). I don't think it is a problem in what regards maintenance at least for the first 10 to 15 years and many that buy the boats new (and chose to have teak) will probably sold the boat well before having any problem with maintenance.

I guess that teak makes sense on the North of Europe, it gives a warmer fell, improves the isolation and it is a non-skid material. On the South of Europe, even if it is widely used it makes no sense because on sunny days you cannot stand with naked feet over it: Too hot.

Besides that my other criticism regards the way teak has to catch dust. It makes it difficult to clean.

Regarding other materials, most of them are some sort of plastic material imitating teak. Plastic has problems with UV and I fear none of them will last as longer as teak. There is one exception and that is cork. As you probably now cork is the bark of a type of Oak, very common here in Portugal.

It is a much better insulator than wood, it has very interesting properties and I believe sooner or later somebody will find a derived material that would be perfect for decks. There are several brands that work with cork, that is much less expensive than teak and much more easy to replace. I really don't know why it is not more used, maybe because it does not look like teak.

Of course you can have a fiberglass deck and that is what I have now but teak and specially cork make for a more comfortable one.

Seacork Northern, offset your Co2 footprint

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Marine Decking Solutions - Seacork

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Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-03-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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  #3825  
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teak deck alternatives

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo,

What are you thoughts on having teak (or whatever teak looking materials are in use these days) on the decks?

I prefer less maintenance when given the choice and perhaps wouldn't mind it in the cockpit, but I'm not big on it covering the entire deck.

That's a beautiful Allure!

The positive development with teak decks these days is that they can be glued rather than screwed; for new fibreglass boats I never understood the logic of drilling a thousand hulls in a waterproof structure in order to apply a cosmetic veneer ! (some still do though e.g. Malo). The frightening thing is the replacement cost, which can be better value in places like Turkey than Northern Europe where its EUR25,000+ for a 13 metre yacht.

There is a theory that teak veneer does act as a structural stiffener, but it also adds weight

Re synthetic alternatives I agree with Paulo re the UV effects but for me the fake teak look doesn't feel quite right - esp as it never looks weathered ! For a colour contrast to the usual whiteness everywhere I'd be inclined to go with a good quality, subtle beige coloured non-skid paint which is nicely masked off around the deck fittings etc.

As much as I love the Allures 45 I question the thinking about running the fake teak look in a continuous run from the cockpit seats, up the bulkhead and onto the coachroof - it just looks wrong and highlights the "non-teakness" as it wraps around 2 radius corners !

cheers
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Re: Adventure 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
I hate it when I get to the last post!

Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested in a thread about a boat project being contemplated. I've found it very enlightening in terms of thought process that goes into some decisions.

It's a 16 part series....so far.

Series: Boat Design & Selection – Adventure 40 «

Enjoy!

paul

I've also been following that site and the Adventure 40 discussions - all very thoughtful with great input from an experienced readership as to what works on boats / what doesn't and also what's essential and what's just "nice to have" - its almost like an online update for all the stuff comprehensively discussed in Steve Dashews Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia (a must have book for any serious cruiser even though it was published 15 years ago; it picks up well the whole trend to lighter and faster cruising yachts).

Now that the equipment specs and design parameters have been well defined it will be interesting to see which naval architect actually designs the Adventure 40's lines, as this will be the critical factor for project lift-off. Bob Perry has been suggested which would be a good thing - he has an interest in well-founded projects from the sailing community and his general design ethos sits well with my interpretation of this project.

re Bob Perry I was catching up with some of his refreshing & candid design reviews on Sailing mag's website the other day (there's a huge archive of his reviews there); he reads plans very well and offers a balanced view of design trade-offs. He's also a regular contributor to Cruising Anarchy.

cheers
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Re: Saare 41 AC and Swedestar 415

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On another thread Rockdawg asked me to choice between a Moody 41AC and a Bavaria vision 42. I told him that they were two good sailboats but very different and that a comparison would not make much sense since they value different priorities, the Moody is more expensive and besides that my preference are not probably the same as his. My needs and tastes will probably be different and the ideal boat for me will be probably different than his ideal boat.

Talking about ideal boats, the truth is that personally none of those boats would fit my personal bill, even if I had the money to buy any of them I would no exchange them by my boat. Not even on a future perspective assuming that I am not going younger and probably it will make sense in the future a more conservative boat (well, when I am 80 year's old or something like that).

Regarding a more conservative perspective and thinking about future I could imagine me on a Xc 42 or even a Xc38. Of course they are so expensive that even if I had a lot more money I would question if that would be a wise choice. But if I need not to consider costs, there are some lucky guys in that situation, definitively they would be boats I would consider.

On a more modest perspective, I mean if I had the money to buy a Moody 41 I would certainly consider a Saare 41 AC as a cheap alternative to the Xc42. The boat has a modern hull but also classic lines, the kind that will not grow old and I like that and not only that on the Saare.

The difference in price for the Moody is not that much since on the Moody you have many extras that come already on the Saare. The differences between the Saare and the Moody have to do with more power on the Saare (even if it is heavier), more stability and all the gear you need to have a perfect control of the sails. I would be bored in the Moody with its simplistic sail shape controls. I like the Saare a lot more than the HR 415 that is a lot more expensive.

But if I really had the money to buy a Xc 42 I guess that I would buy a Swedestar 415 instead. It has a huge stability and it is much more fun to sail than the Xc42 and comes also with a perfect cruising interior. I would only ask for that transom to be modified, not the hull that I like very much, but the way it is closed. I like it more open. That would not be difficult I am sure.

The Swedestar 415 has everything I like in a sailboat: Fast, comfortable, great upwind, huge stability (including reserve stability) a great cruising interior and of course, it is beautiful in a classic kind of way, one that will grow old with grace. My kind of old men's boat

Again, I am not saying that this is the logic choice to everybody. In fact it is not and it is not a question of money but a question of priorities. Money apart: If one dreams to sail to remote places this is not the indicated boat; If someone dreams to cruise and win races at top level, this is not the best boat either; If someone dreams to solo sail on the trade winds at planning speeds, this is not the right boat in fact this is not the right boat for most sailors just for some among them me and even in what regards me I am pretty sure that it would not be my ideal boat if I had 35 (I would want something more explosive and fast). T can see it as a boat for getting old with style and without being bored sailing slowly.

But I an not the only one that likes that boat. Just look at what the different test sailors said about it:

The Swedestar and Saare are both interesting options indeed; amazing how many low volume producers still going in Scandanavia with a common theme of stylish but traditional lines - nothing too trendy ! I'd like to step onto both for a good look around and take them for a sail.

I have never seen a Comfortina 39 in the flesh but that also has some nice features at a sensible price (but don't like the twin back stays to bottom edge of the transom - certain aesthetics like that would be a deal breaker for me !)

The challenge is to contemplate how these yachts will deliver on what we really want & need from them for much of the time we're on them. An experienced sailor friend recently bought a near new Arcona 400 and took it to the Med; found it much too lively (shorthanded) in a Biscay gale and for coastal cruising with most time at anchor is thinking 10 tonnes of displacement might have been better than 7 for a comfortable cruising experience, despite the performance loss.

I like what Moody have done with the 41AC - it does sit apart from the pack of production designs but whenever I look at it can't help but think it would have benefited from some more spring in the sheer such as with the HR412 to give that big volume hull a little more "life".

cheers
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Talking Re: Saare 41 AC and Swedestar 415

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On another thread Rockdawg asked me to choice between a Moody 41AC and a Bavaria vision 42. I told him that they were two good sailboats but very different and that a comparison would not make much sense since they value different priorities, the Moody is more expensive and besides that my preference are not probably the same as his. My needs and tastes will probably be different and the ideal boat for me will be probably different than his ideal boat.

Talking about ideal boats, the truth is that personally none of those boats would fit my personal bill, even if I had the money to buy any of them I would no exchange them by my boat. Not even on a future perspective assuming that I am not going younger and probably it will make sense in the future a more conservative boat (well, when I am 80 year's old or something like that).

Regarding a more conservative perspective and thinking about future I could imagine me on a Xc 42 or even a Xc38. Of course they are so expensive that even if I had a lot more money I would question if that would be a wise choice. But if I need not to consider costs, there are some lucky guys in that situation, definitively they would be boats I would consider.

On a more modest perspective, I mean if I had the money to buy a Moody 41 I would certainly consider a Saare 41 AC as a cheap alternative to the Xc42. The boat has a modern hull but also classic lines, the kind that will not grow old and I like that and not only that on the Saare.

The difference in price for the Moody is not that much since on the Moody you have many extras that come already on the Saare. The differences between the Saare and the Moody have to do with more power on the Saare (even if it is heavier), more stability and all the gear you need to have a perfect control of the sails. I would be bored in the Moody with its simplistic sail shape controls. I like the Saare a lot more than the HR 415 that is a lot more expensive.

Saare 41 AC

MOVIE:

Estnische Baukunst: Saare 41 AC - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

But if I really had the money to buy a Xc 42 I guess that I would buy a Swedestar 415 instead. It has a huge stability and it is much more fun to sail than the Xc42 and comes also with a perfect cruising interior. I would only ask for that transom to be modified, not the hull that I like very much, but the way it is closed. I like it more open. That would not be difficult I am sure.

The Swedestar 415 has everything I like in a sailboat: Fast, comfortable, great upwind, huge stability (including reserve stability) a great cruising interior and of course, it is beautiful in a classic kind of way, one that will grow old with grace. My kind of old men's boat

Again, I am not saying that this is the logic choice to everybody. In fact it is not and it is not a question of money but a question of priorities. Money apart: If one dreams to sail to remote places this is not the indicated boat; If someone dreams to cruise and win races at top level, this is not the best boat either; If someone dreams to solo sail on the trade winds at planning speeds, this is not the right boat in fact this is not the right boat for most sailors just for some among them me and even in what regards me I am pretty sure that it would not be my ideal boat if I had 35 (I would want something more explosive and fast). T can see it as a boat for getting old with style and without being bored sailing slowly.

But I an not the only one that likes that boat. Just look at what the different test sailors said about it:

http://www.swedestar.se/Userfiles/Bi...p-jan-2013.jpg

Swedestar Yachts from Sweden by Lidköpings Båtsnickeri, for cruising, family and racing - Modell 415


MOVIE:

Schwedens neuer Stern: Swedestar 415 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin



Hi Paulo

Great insight into your personal likes and dislikes. There is one problem though. You never mentioned a Salona. If I were a betting man, I would put money on their being a Salona in your future

I have to say that I like the look of that Allures 39 - what a boat. It is true that one's taste in boats matures as you are involved in this beautiful pastime of ours.

Cheers

David
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  #3829  
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Saare 41 AC, Swedestar 415 and Comfortina 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

Great insight into your personal likes and dislikes. There is one problem though. You never mentioned a Salona. If I were a betting man, I would put money on their being a Salona in your future

...
Hi David,

I don't think there will be any other boat in my future than the Comet 41s that I own now. In many aspects is very similar to a Salona. I would not buy it new over a Salona because the Comet is much more expensive and the difference in price would not be justified for me. I am quite happy with it.

Regarding those two boats, I would not exchange my Comet or a Salona over a Saare. Regarding that one I was just talking about what would be ideal on a future that I hope it will never arrive, I mean the need to have a more sedate and less lively boat due to age limitations. Hell, I knew that a 83 year old guy that sails alone with his wife exchanged last year his 2008 Salona 42 by a new Grand Soleil 43 and I hope to have the stamina to keep going with lively boats even at that age

Obviously others think and fell other way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapwraia View Post
..An experienced sailor friend recently bought a near new Arcona 400 and took it to the Med; found it much too lively (shorthanded) in a Biscay gale and for coastal cruising with most time at anchor is thinking 10 tonnes of displacement might have been better than 7 for a comfortable cruising experience, despite the performance loss.
...
As I have said no right or wrong here but the important is to know exactly what one is buying and that it is really what he wants.

Sawpwraia, the Arcona is a boat with about 8000kg, the same type of my own boat or the Salona 41. They would perform in a gale the way they would supposed to perform. Safely but more lively than a 10 T as a 10T boat will be more lively than a 14T boat with the same length (a steel boat for instance). A 5000kg 40ft would be more lively than the Salona or the Arcona. More lively means not necessarily more dangerous but certainly demanding a more experienced sailor and involving more discomfort (and more excitement).

Part of this thread has been about that, helping finding the right boat to each sailor and that means different boats even if for the same basic purpose.

I bet your experienced friend was used to more heavier boats? and probably these was the first experience with the Arcona in a a gale? I would find it very interesting if you can ask him if he think that he had make the wrong choice for him buying the Arcona 400 (410?) or if all in all he is satisfied and that was just the right boat for him, no matter being more lively (and fast).

David, Regarding the Swedestar 415 that is another story and I would trade my boat for one in an heartbeat if someone purposes me that crazy deal and I say crazy because the Swedestar is a very expensive boat, much more than the Saare and probably 2 times the price of a Salona (or more).

That is the same type as my boat (41ft performance cruiser) but with a different design criteria, more narrow and with a much bigger B/D. Not many would prefer that design criteria but I know that I would, as I would prefer the exquisitely finished interior. I like also the idea of a classic boat that will remain classic when boats with more modern shapes (today) will become outdated and look just old. That's probably because I am getting old and I will not think in having another boat in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapwraia View Post
..
I have never seen a Comfortina 39 in the flesh but that also has some nice features at a sensible price (but don't like the twin back stays to bottom edge of the transom - certain aesthetics like that would be a deal breaker for me !)
..
I have been inside them several times and I love the interior as well as the design criteria and the I would not care about the back-stay but if I have not a problem having a classic looking boat with a modern hull (even if in a classical tradition) I would object in having a classic looking boat with an out dated hull and the hull of the Comfortina 39 is out dated. Have a look at the two hulls:







Even regarding the Swedestar I would have preferred a slightly larger transom and the beam a bit brought back but as it is is still acceptable for me while the one of the Comfortina looks just unacceptably old.

That would not mean much for some but would mean for me. I agree that the boat is fair priced even if you need a long list of options that would pull the price up. The boat is fast (even if slower than the Sweedstar, the Salona or my own boat). For that price and type of boat I think the Arcona 410 is a better option. You would experience in a gale the same type of behavior with all the boats mentioned, except with the Sweedstar that would be more comfortable and better upwind in really very demanding conditions. but the difference would not be that big.





However I will agree that I like more the Comfortina interior than the one from the Arcona. Not a big difference but the Comfortina is just perfect, with an impeccable quality, except that it has not a trough the hull view, put that would not be difficult to install as an option.

Have a look at a recent test sail. I don't know what the guy is saying but I am sure he is saying nice things about the boat

Movie:

Comfortina 39 - en juvel

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-04-2013 at 09:12 AM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I just wondered why VPLP isn't planing to build a cruiser/racer. After their success in the last VG they could use the fame for a big demand...
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