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post #3911 of 6763 Old 04-14-2013
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re : Clarc33

This is the kind of thing I mean by the coachroof ports - courtesy of Olin Stephens in 1966; shame about the dinghy The tapering configuration of the front 3 ports would work well on the Clarc. Still, this S&S was a custom build and these details add cost; Clarc is hopefully doing their best to deliver quality at sensible cost.

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post #3912 of 6763 Old 04-14-2013 Thread Starter
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Brenta 30

Regarding beauty look at this old movie and look how beautiful and adapted to the conditions those two Brenta 30 are. Compared to them, on that setting, even what we normally would have looked as nice cruising boats looks awkward, fat and kind of ugly

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Sensei by Felci

and since we are talking about daysailers week-end cruisers and beauty just put this movie running on full screen.

Belive it or not, this one even has a real head

It should give a lot of pleasure to a NA to be free to design a boat like this

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post #3914 of 6763 Old 04-14-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
Do you want a multihull? Look at this novelty!

california love | Sailing Anarchy
I'm not really in love with catamarans. I like trimarans. I think it has to do with it being a "proper" (singular) boat in the middle, whereas a catamaran is like two boats tied together. Not very rational thinking, but I do prefer trimarans over catamarans.
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post #3915 of 6763 Old 04-14-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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I'm not really in love with catamarans. I like trimarans. I think it has to do with it being a "proper" (singular) boat in the middle, whereas a catamaran is like two boats tied together. Not very rational thinking, but I do prefer trimarans over catamarans.
And you have the Pt-11. It seems a nice one to me, a bit less radical then the Krysalis 42 but with more interior space and a nice interior. It seems fast to me

PT-11 by Performance Multihulls

And of course the Corsair 37 and the Dragonfly 35. All great boats.


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...




Lovely boat but with all the problems trimarans have versus same interior sized monohulls: price

The interior is functional but quite impersonal for living aboard. I guess not better than this one from the Corsair 37:








and this one is not so expensive and has the advantage of folding the arms for not paying the double in a marina.

I have to say that the PT 11 looks better (on the outside) and is probably a bit faster but the Corsair does also look good, particularly in its all carbon version that even so it is less expensive than the PT 11.





But if money is not a problem neither space at the marina or the stark interior, for the ones that like to have fun....what a bird!!!!!
















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post #3916 of 6763 Old 04-14-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Those looks nice and some really nice interiors. I'd prefer not to buy a Dragonfly, though - They're a dime a dozen around my parts (I'm in Denmark, so that's natural).

Man, I never thought I'd be smitten with multihulls.
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post #3917 of 6763 Old 04-14-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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...

Man, I never thought I'd be smitten with multihulls.
I was interested in them as a cruiser for me. It turned out that I find out that an offshore one was too expensive for me.

Check out also the French guys from Challenge. They have a nice 37 and they made once a 42. They used to have a 34 for charter on the West coast of France. Maybe it was a good idea to charter one to see if that kind of boat is what you want as a cruiser.

Challenge 42 : la grande croisière rapide

Challange 37

from Patrick Lefrère on Vimeo.



Regards

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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I was interested in them as a cruiser for me. It turned out that I find out that an offshore one was too expensive for me.

Check out also the French guys from Challenge. They have a nice 37 and they made once a 42. They used to have a 34 for charter on the West coast of France. Maybe it was a good idea to charter one to see if that kind of boat is what you want as a cruiser.

Challenge 42 : la grande croisière rapide

Challange 37

Regards

Paulo
Thanks, I will charter one before making my mind up in the end. That Challenge 42 is just awful. I mean, I get why they want more space below, but look at how much of extra wave slamming potential that creates.

In any case, I cruise alone, as as such, I could make a racing interior work just fine. Obviously I won't have a complete racing interior, as no matter which boat we're talking, it will be set up for singlehandling, and with only extra berths for my kid and gf. I don't need much. Hell, I don't even like to cook. A fridge is important to me (yes, I like to have fresh milk, butter and cold pops, and so on), so loads of solar and/or a hydro generator.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi PCP,
I found your very interesting overview on keels. I more or less copied the post to my personal blogg
You will find it by googling on "piano" and "Hansson31".
I hope this is OK, otherwise I will erase it immidiately. Please let me know.
One topic I am very interested in is - keels! Both design and structural characteristics of keels. I have been searching the web for investigations of keel design. There is some about IACC keels. But almost nothing else. Two master thesis have been made at Chalmers University Sweden (my native country). Many different designs are found on new boats and my feeling is that keel design is an ad hoc business. Are you aware of specific investigations related to racing/crusing performance keels for say 30 - 50 footers? Center of gravity is one business. Type and design of bulb and layout and section of the fin are other important issues.
I found a pic of the Safran keel in your overview. My professional area is material science and solid mechanics (structural science). The only information about the fracture of the safran keel I have found is the official report from the Safran Sailing Team presented on the Vendee Globe website. You live much closer to Les Sables'DOlonne. Do you know where I can find more in depth information, about the design and the cause of the fracture?
Best Regards from Anders B
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Keels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders B View Post
I found your very interesting overview on keels. I more or less copied the post to my personal blogg
You will find it by googling on "piano" and "Hansson31".
I hope this is OK, otherwise I will erase it immidiately. Please let me know.
One topic I am very interested in is - keels! Both design and structural characteristics of keels. I have been searching the web for investigations of keel design. There is some about IACC keels. But almost nothing else. Two master thesis have been made at Chalmers University Sweden (my native country). Many different designs are found on new boats and my feeling is that keel design is an ad hoc business. Are you aware of specific investigations related to racing/crusing performance keels for say 30 - 50 footers? Center of gravity is one business. Type and design of bulb and layout and section of the fin are other important issues.
I found a pic of the Safran keel in your overview. My professional area is material science and solid mechanics (structural science). The only information about the fracture of the safran keel I have found is the official report from the Safran Sailing Team presented on the Vendee Globe website. You live much closer to Les Sables'DOlonne. Do you know where I can find more in depth information, about the design and the cause of the fracture?
Hi Anders,

I read that report too and it seems very clear to me. As you know Safran (the sponsor) is an high tech company and the keel was made by them. They say:

Analysis
The specialists analyzed the break in the keel’s fin by microscopic observations to determine the failure mode. Samples were also taken from the metal to check if its characteristics matched the values used for strength calculations. At the same time, other experts calculated the loads experienced by the keel, based on observations of the break, and compared them to the standard loads used as a basis for its design.

Results
The investigation was able to exclude the possibility of a break due to a collision with an "unidentified floating object". It also noted that there were no metallurgical defects, and that the welds showed no anomalies that could explain the break. The investigation shows that the break was due to damage caused by metal fatigue, engendered by repeated shocks from contact with waves. There are no indications of a high-frequency vibration phenomenon.

A close look at the break spotlights the high loads due to the extreme sea conditions experienced by Safran over the last year, during the Transat Jacques Vabre 2011, the 2012 Round Britain race, and training runs for the Vendée Globe. The analysis confirms that the loads experienced by the keel were undoubtedly far higher than the standard values used by the design teams, as well as the values calculated from the shock recordings during the Transat Jacques Vabre 2009.

"The Safran Open 60 monohull ocean racer has undergone significant technical changes since 2010 to boost its performance," said Gérard Le Page, President of the Safran Sailing Team. "Facing increasingly fierce competition, the boat is subjected to ever-higher levels of stress, even under very sustained conditions. The shocks experienced by the boat and its appendages were also more violent, in particular exceeding the estimates used by the design team."

Safran will take advantage of the lessons learned through this investigation to design a new keel and work with Marc Guillemot to prepare for the next major race, the Transat Jacques Vabre 2013. Safran will of course make available all conclusions of this investigation to the IMOCA (International Monohull Open Class Association) Technical Committee, so that all shipowners and skippers can benefit from the lessons learned.


Results of the investigation into the causes of Safran's broken keel - Safran Sailing Team

Regarding keels they are as much studied as the hulls. In what regards performance cruisers that race at high level in handicap racing some brands even propose different keels for different rules. I mean they are not studied only in what regards pure performance but in what regards performance under a given rule. Any NA knows exactly were is the center of the gravity of a given keel and that is used to calculate the boat CG needed to the program computer to calculate the stability curves.

Regarding internet the information is not much but you can see here some studies made by ker regarding the Salona 35 and 38. The hull is not designed by him (they utilize the hulls of the 34 and 37 that are designed by J&J) he optimized the keel and rudder.

http://www.sailman.fi/documents/S38p...e19.5.2011.pdf

Salona 35





They sell the standard boat with a torpedo keel but if you want to compete on ORCI they can have the boat with one of these. They look odd but knowing the competence of Ker in design in what regards to winning races I am sure they will make a boat more competitive in ORCI but not in absolute performance.

This is a very complicated keel in the shape of a foil, with an interior light structure, lead on the bottom and a kind of foam on the top. The CG will not be as low as with a torpedo keel, so it will need to weight more but I am sure that will have less drag. Doing the maths in what regards the ORCI rule i am sure that will have advantages.

So you can see to what point those studies go

Look at the two possible keels on the JPK 38 (Valens).



A circle with a cross marks on both keels the CG. As you can see it is lower on the torpedo keel. That means that the swing keel will have to have more weight to compensate or have more draft. All this is completely dominated and studied by the NAs that study in computer programs also the drag of each solution even in what regards more complicated ones:



Take a look at these studies:

Naval Architecture : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects

Regarding the effect a given keel and the ballast has on a boat in what regards the stability, all is studied in full detail and the NA knows how the boat is going to perform (if they manage to build it according with his specs and that is not always the case). Some differences are expected to occur, specially in what regards weight.
Now that the racing boats use canting keels those calculations are a lot more complicated but even so carried in great detail: Never saw a new Open 60 missing its inversion test:



That's because the NA had made previously their home work correctly

Regarding posting posts (or part of them) from this thread on your blog no problem but please make a reference regarding from where you have taken them.

best regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 04-14-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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