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  #3941  
Old 04-15-2013
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Summit yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
One that I like is the Summit MD35. For me that I'm Chilean the main advantaje is this boat is made in Argentina, then I can go to Buenos Aires to buy one and transport it on a trailer to Chile.

MD35 Matagi - YouTube
Yes, that boat is beautiful. It is only that one or all Summit yachts are made in Argentina?

You know it is pretty odd, I think the Summit are among the most beautiful boats and certainly between the best American boats, I have talked about them here already but I can't remember to see any thread or mention about them on the Sailnet except here. And there are still some that say I don't like American boats

I like particularly the Summit 40 that has already some years and was known before as King 40, a Mills design that has not taken any wrinkles. Still a very fast and beautiful boat.

It is a pity they have not provide it with a good cruising interior but maybe they know that even with a nice interior there are no market in America for fast performance cruisers. American sailors still consider them just racing boats so they make them with a very simple interiors because they know that the few that are going to buy them will be racers.

In Europe there is a much bigger percentage of cruisers that buy performance cruisers and some brands like Salona or Pogo are already selling more boats to cruisers than to racers.

Some movies with the Summit/King 40:





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  #3942  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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It is only that one or all Summit yachts are made in Argentina?
I'm not sure, but I understand that the King 40 and the MD 35 are made in Argentina.
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Question Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo!
What are all these numbers?
e.g. What does "PG10-PT93; 100-996;" mean?
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  #3944  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

PG = Page, PT = Post.

Your post is 421-4202, this mean that your post is in the page 421 and have the number 4202. Mine post is 421-4203.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I thought this article ( even if it is 5 years old ) fits well into some of the discussions here on boat speed regarding sail aerodynamics, angle of heel and the influence of beam. http://www.sailyachtresearch.org/ima...e_july2007.pdf
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Index

Quote:
Originally Posted by capnJudd View Post
Paulo!
What are all these numbers?
e.g. What does "PG10-PT93; 100-996;" mean?
Yes, that's right but I hive up to actualize that Index log ago. Too much work The advanced search engine on the thread works pretty well. sometimes too much results for very popular boats but it is just a question of having some patient.

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IMS, ORCI, Open boats and sailboat design.

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Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I thought this article ( even if it is 5 years old ) fits well into some of the discussions here on boat speed regarding sail aerodynamics, angle of heel and the influence of beam. http://www.sailyachtresearch.org/ima...e_july2007.pdf
Yes and also why the last generation of performance cruisers are better sailing boats than the previous generations. I am talking about boats with a keel all in lead without a bulb versus bulbed boats, boats with more RM, more powerful and faster. Those powerful and stiff boats rated badly some years ago so the boats that won races (in compensated) were not the fastest or more seaworthy ones and that lead the design of cruising boats in that direction.

That has changed and since some years ago the results in real time are much more equivalent to the results in compensated time. The only exception were very light boats with a big B/D ratio of moderated beam, that were in fact much faster but had problems in winning in compensated.

I have been posting here news about the meetings the racing community has promoted with designers and the ones that makes the rules to address that problem. Some alterations on the good sense have been made in the last couple of years to resolve that on ORCI and today that handicap rule seems to have reunited a consensus in what regards a future rule for all. Some resistance from the ones that have boats that rate unfairly better in IRC is expected. Much work has to be done but all seems to go in the right direction.

That story about boats with a smaller stability and not as fast as they could be is funny because many still think that twenty or fifteen years old cruiser racers are better as cruising boats then the most recent crop of cruiser racers when it is the opposite: Old boats tend to be tender were not designed with performance in mind but to suit a rule that favored slow boats and boats with a smaller stability:

"Despite this narrowing of designs in the ACC box rule, the opposite trend became evident several years ago when trying to handicap using a VPP. For IMS this meant optimal designs started exhibiting less and less stability, with bulbs disappearing from the bottoms of keels to be replaced by fin
keels. The tips of fin keels were soon composed of materials other than lead as high-performance deep-draft keels were regarded as desirable but so was low stability. ...

In any case, designers concluded that the VPP overvalued stability. A tender
boat was predicted as slower than it actually was, so the obvious solution for
designers was to exploit that bias: make the boat slower knowing it would not be as slow as the rule predicted. With that rating credit in hand the designer could then make a longer, bigger boat, perhaps with more sail area, to get the rating back up to that of the competitors. The end result was a boat that although tender was actually faster through sheer size.

Without rule considerations, however,these boats were not as fast as they could and should have been for their size.

Although the Offshore Racing Congress have recently taken steps to correct the problem in the IMS VPP, it was too late and the favourable treatment of undesirable designs partly contributed to the demise of IMS racing here in the US...."


http://www.sailyachtresearch.org/ima...e_july2007.pdf

Tn Europe the result was a kind of separation between racing boats and cruiser racer boasts. While the first were designed to perform as well as their size allowed, the others were designed to beat a given set of rules and that unfortunately means not to be developed taking performance in mind but winning on handicap, not real time.

The ones that liked fast boats quickly started racing in several one design series or Open boats with a very open rule. That lead to two divergent lines of development (I would say three of we count solo racers) in what regards boat design, something that had never happened in the past.

Logically the one that shows more influence on cruising boats today are the one that comes for solo boats, boats those were designed with performance in mind, out of almost any rule but because they were designed to be sailed in auto pilot most of the time they had to be easy and forgiving boats to sail, a condition that suits perfectly cruising boats.

Most performance cruisers, because they can be used as cruiser racers come from the line of the IMS boats (Handicap racing) but now corrected in what regards stability and speed and others come from the development line of solo racers. Curiously they are fast boats but has not any use for racing: They were designed taking only into account pure performance and easiness, not any handicap rule and therefore rate horribly bad. Anyway there are many sailors that just don't care: They don't want the boat for racing, they want just a fast easily driven cruising boat. That is what explains the success of boats like the Pogo or the RM as performance cruisers.

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Paulo
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Orci

and talking about the growing interest in ORCI in these times of crisis:

"There were 119 entries in the 2011 ORCi World Championship in Cres, 135 at the 2012 Audi ORCi World Championship in Helsinki, and here in early April it is a number that is approaching fast for organizers of the ORC World Championship 2013 in Ancona, Italy.

While many sailing events around the world have struggled to keep up their participation levels, this year event organizers in Ancona have the opposite problem: they have put a limit on entries, the first time ever for an ORC championship event.

"Our host venue at Marina Dorica is a fantastic facility," says racing manager Paolo Massarini. "But with more than 130 boats from 12 countries we could not guarantee space for everyone, which includes proper accommodation for the boats but also the crews and their families and friends. Comune di Ancona and the Regione Marche have been very helpful to anticipate a large crowd of over 1000 people coming to this event, so we have to be realistic in making sure there is space for everyone....

Another reason to limit entries is that a race fleet that is too large can also compromise the quality of racing within the format allowed by the International Sailing Federation (ISAF). Since only two World Championship titles can be awarded according to ISAF rules, the large fleet can be split into only two separate regattas to determine a winner for each. At up to 70 entries in either class, this will still be quite a large group for Principal Race Officer Alfredo Ricci and his team to manage to race in a way that gives a fair chance to every participant. Formats such as multiple course areas are being considered to handle the large fleet.

"Fairness is extremely important at the World Championship," says ORC Chairman Bruno Finzi. "There are many boats coming from not only the Mediterranean region but from all over the world, with most making a tremendous investment in their preparation to compete. So it is important that we make sure that all aspects of the competition are fair and transparent: the measurements, the ratings, the race courses and the scoring must be absolutely clear to all who participate."

ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

As a result of having the complete matrix of predicted boat speed at various wind strengths and directions, ORC rating systems can therefore provide a variety of methods to calculate corrected time. Scoring options offered include the most sophisticated, where the boat's performance is taken in consideration depending on the wind conditions, but also simple scoring options using single number scoring coefficients in either Time on Time or Time 0n Distance formats. Simple scoring options also include Performance line as a combination of Time on Time (ToT) and Time on Distance (ToD). There is also the Triple number system that uses three different Time on Time coefficients to be used in light, medium and heavy breezes. All simple scoring options are also given for either Inshore (windward-leeward) or Offshore races.

This wide variety of scoring options may look complex, but it is actually one of the strength of the ORC rating systems to offer race managers a variety to choose from that best suits their fleet, their race type and their race conditions. The factors race managers should consider when choosing which scoring type to use include:

type and level of the fleet - better to use simple systems for club-level racing

type of race- windward/leeward or an offshore race

the difference between fastest and slowest boat - important to know how to

divide classes and to combine entries for overall prizes

prevailing weather condition- are they steady or variable during the race

tradition of particular type for eg, Time on Time or Time on Distance

is there current in the area, and can it be predicted - if not, then ToT is better than ToD

Because the ORC VPP can predict the performance potential of different boat types, it can rate them fairly against each other in any range of wind conditions and course types. In this way Performance Curve Scoring can make handicap yacht scoring significantly more fair than any single number scoring approach.


http://www.sailnet.com/forums/newrep...te=1&p=1017206

Last year in Helsinki it was like this:



Boats everywhere. I guess that if this continues to grow they have to run qualification races for the world championship. That's unavoidable with the growing interest on ORCI.



Two years ago in Australia:

We talked to Matt Allen pre-Hobart about the two rules.

He explained ‘ORCi addresses stability issues where IRC doesn’t. The ORCi stability index is derived from the old IMS stability index which is something that we all know and trust in a comprehensive fashion. It’s used today to determine whether boats meet the stability requires for the Hobart race.

‘ORCi is a transparent rule while IRC is not. There are pros and cons for each rule.

‘I think also measuring the stability is a good thing as long as stability is encouraged. We don’t want to go back to sailing tippy boats. IMS, people thought it was in some respects a good rule but didn’t encourage boats to be stable and didn’t move with the times and possibly didn’t encourage boats to be quick as much as one might have wanted them to be.

‘I think IRC encouraged quick boats at 50 foot plus and has traditionally not encouraged boats under 50 feet or under 45 feet to be all that fast.

‘There is a comment from a lot of countries where they believe that the racer cruiser is more fairly treated in ORCi than IRC.

'They tend to think that some production boats do well under IRC while other brands do not seem to be nearly as well handicapped. Under ORCi they are possibly more evenly treated. ...

Dobbs Davis from the Offshore Rating Council commented ‘ORC seems to be doing a better job across a broader range of boat types than some of the other rating rules. ...

‘Back in the days of IMS in the late 90s and early 2000s the measurement of stability was there but it was not accurately modelled in the performance of the VPP so the designers have worked around it.

‘That's been gone since 2007 when the ORC invested heavily in better analysis to produce much more accurate results.

‘Under ORCi Fast boats do fine and slow boats do fine. That's the challenge of all these rules, to make them work across the range of boat types. It is a challenge for sure but based on the results that we saw from the recent World Championships where we had 119 boats from 16 countries and in which we had that broad range of boat types, it seems to be working and it seems to be fair.

‘Owners are dissatisfied with strong type forming in the rules. The analysis we did from the last Worlds results show, are not strong type forming tendencies that the ORC type system might work as a good alternative across boat types but most importantly is it offers flexibility. ...

‘It’s a scientific based system with no politics, no guessing. The rule is downloadable.

‘Boats are entering ORCi because they get a certificate anyway to get the stability.

ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

The Royal Ocean Racing Club (RORC) and Union Nationale pour La Course au Large (UNCL), joint owners of the IRC rating rule, have been in discussion with the Offshore Racing Congress (ORC) about the possibility of creating a unified organisation to govern yacht ratings worldwide. This initiative to bring the world offshore rating systems together was endorsed by ISAF following its AGM in 2009 in Korea.

The intention is for RORC/UNCL and ORC to create a joint venture company which would run the existing rules, IRC and ORC and then in time, using the combined knowledge and resources, evolve new rating systems that combine the benefits of IRC and ORC to create fast, fun and seaworthy boats for unified competition all over the world.


http://www.nrv.de/uploads/media/PressreleaseRORC.pdf
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  #3949  
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Fox 10.20 Capado

And after those last two boring posts, the two last videos from Capado, almost finishing their circumnavigation:



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