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  #3961  
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Smile Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Some very interesting information about the JPK 1010 that probably is relevant for other similar cases:

They have compared a 1010 in IRC set up (Keel without a bulb and a single rudder) with a 1010 on Ocean Racing configuration, with a bulbed keel and two rudders. Boats in the water at the same time with wind conditions between 13 and 20K.
This an old post about JPK 1010. Is this a public report? Pics and details about the keels are very interesting. I like the size of JPK 1010 and the performance seems to be good.
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Jpk 10.10

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Originally Posted by Anders B View Post
This an old post about JPK 1010. Is this a public report? Pics and details about the keels are very interesting. I like the size of JPK 1010 and the performance seems to be good.
Yes the boat has proved itself on the racing field, in regatta and solo racing (transquadra). It is designed more taking racing in consideration than cruising even if it will not have problem in doing that if adapted, if one is Spartan enough. If the boat as a cruising boat can be considered Spartan as a racer it is a top one.

The boat JPK has intended to fast cruising is the JPK 38. I have posted about it and I think you will find it interesting. It has many similarities with your boat (Opium 39) including a swing keel, among other configurations.







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Jpk 38

And since we revisited the JPK 10.10 let's have another look to the boat JPK designed expressly for cruising and solo sailing, the JPK 38. I am partial about this one because I like it very much.

They proposed initially a swing keel option and I don't know if they will make one if the client asks but it seems that they have fixed on two standard configurations: Bulbed keel with a 2.15m draft and twin bulbed keels with 1.75m draft.

The B/D ratio is very good for this type of boat and keel: 38%. That with the big hull form stability means a huge stiffness and a very powerful and stable boat.

The hull is beamy, with fine entries and based on the shape of ocean racers but proportionally less beamy than a Pogo. I like the interior too.

A fast and easy to sail boat that will provide a lot of sailing pleasure with good cruising accommodation and with a more than reasonable draft, considering the twin keel version at a fair price with the advantage of the possibility of customization specially in what regards rigging and sailor preferences. JPK is a great sailor and a very nice guy and will provide very useful information that makes easy to chose the best configuration to each one.





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Re: Iy 10.98

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The IY 10.98 (Italia yachts) is one of the 36ft that I like more. It is light, it is fast, it has a great cruising interior and a classical look. Well to be true the classical look is the thing I like less, I mean I like a classical touch but here it is too... uninspired? Anyway I am being picky. Personally I would take this one easily over the Dufour 36 performance (a very different boat).

If you want to see how this baby takes nasty weather have a look;



and have a better look here, I think you will be impressed (I was):

IY 10.98 "Trilli" in Regatta | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


Some movies that give a pretty good idea how the boat sail in light weather and show an high quality interior and I mean really high:







and now have another look:


A gem this one

...
Hi Paulo,

Since these boats are not found in NA you made a point of reference to the Dufour 36P (which is a good boat) and say you'll take this over it (whatever reasons).

Now how would you compare this boat to a Salona 37 (or the new 38) for example? As far as quality/perceived performance in general?

I ask this because this is a very attractive boat and I see that its possible to have it sail away for $225k which is less than a new J111 here by quite a bit with a much better interior and cockpit (unless my eyes are mistaken).

Just want to get perspectives.
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Iy 10.98, Solaris 37 and Salona 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Hi Paulo,

Since these boats are not found in NA you made a point of reference to the Dufour 36P (which is a good boat) and say you'll take this over it (whatever reasons).

Now how would you compare this boat to a Salona 37 (or the new 38) for example? As far as quality/perceived performance in general?

I ask this because this is a very attractive boat and I see that its possible to have it sail away for $225k which is less than a new J111 here by quite a bit with a much better interior and cockpit (unless my eyes are mistaken).

Just want to get perspectives.
Hi Chimbatete,.... long absence

Do you have a boat already?

The first time I heard about that boat was when I was test sailing the Salona 38, two years ago. The guy that was test sailing the boat with me was trying to decide between a Salona 38 and a IY 10.98. I don't know what boat he had chose, he was really undecided.

To tell you the truth I have never be inside the IY 10.98 but visited the IY 13.98



The quality of design and finish of the IY 13.98 is awesome and I am assuming the IY 10.98 has the same quality. The movie and the photos I have seen show a very nice interior but that is not the same as to visit the boat.

Talking about the 13.98, it won the 2013 European boat of the year contest for the best luxury cruiser. Yes that's right, luxury cruiser and it is the first time that a performance boat won that on the Luxury category. This gives you an idea of the boat finish...and also a hint in what regards price.

It is a great praise to Salona 38 that a guy interested in the IY 10.98 was comparing it with a Salona 38. For comparison you have to look not at Salona but to the Solaris 37. The YI 10.98 will be faster, more adapted to a dual use (regatta and cruising) and the Solaris will be less nervous and probably a better bluewater boat due to his bigger weight. Not that I would have any problem with the IY offshore, even to cross the pound or to cruise extensively, but I travel light



The Salona 38 is not on the luxury class

It has a good interior, well finished but it cannot be compared in interior quality to any of these boats. you can compare them with Halberg Rassy or with Arcona, not with a Salona, but then the price is not comparable too.

If that is what you want and have the money for a Solaris or a IY probably you will have a boat that will give you great pride to own and a very beautiful and fast boat.

Back to the Salona 38, the boat can be ordered in many configurations but only a top one will be able to compete with the IY 10.98 in regatta terms. The difference in price will not be so big but will be still substantial.

The Salona 38 is a bigger boat (more half a meter) and for the pictures, it seems that you can notice that on the interior. The Salona 38 will be faster than the Solaris 37 and will offer a great price regarding the quality. The Solaris and the IY are not build to a price, or at least that does not show, they are perfect and perfection does not comes cheap

MOVIE SALONA 38:

Neue Salona 38 im Schwerwettertest - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

I don't understand what the J 111 has to do with any of these boats. The J 111 is much of a racer with an interior that will only provide a very spartan cruising. Anyway to race a J111 you need a lot of experience and a crew. Have you been sailing and racing?



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-19-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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  #3966  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Iy 10.98, Solaris 37 and Salona 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi Chimbatete,.... long absence

Do you have a boat already?

The first time I heard about that boat was when I was test sailing the Salona 38, two years ago. The guy that was test sailing the boat with me was trying to decide between a Salona 38 and a IY 10.98. I don't know what boat he had chose, he was really undecided.

To tell you the truth I have never be inside the IY 10.98 but visited the IY 13.98



The quality of design and finish of the IY 13.98 is awesome and I am assuming the IY 10.98 has the same quality. The movie and the photos I have seen show a very nice interior but that is not the same as to visit the boat.

Talking about the 13.98, it won the 2013 European boat of the year contest for the best luxury cruiser. Yes that's right, luxury cruiser and it is the first time that a performance boat won that on the Luxury category. This gives you an idea of the boat finish...and also a hint in what regards price.

It is a great praise to Salona 38 that a guy interested in the IY 10.98 was comparing it with a Salona 38. For comparison you have to look not at Salona but to the Solaris 37. The YI 10.98 will be faster, more adapted to a dual use (regatta and cruising) and the Solaris will be less nervous and probably a better bluewater boat due to his bigger weight. Not that I would have any problem with the IY offshore, even to cross the pound or to cruise extensively, but I travel light



The Salona 38 is not on the luxury class

It has a good interior, well finished but it cannot be compared in interior quality to any of these boats. you can compare them with Halberg Rassy or with Arcona, not with a Salona, but then the price is not comparable too.

If that is what you want and have the money for a Solaris or a IY probably you will have a boat that will give you great pride to own and a very beautiful and fast boat.

Back to the Salona 38, the boat can be ordered in many configurations but only a top one will be able to compete with the IY 10.98 in regatta terms. The difference in price will not be so big but will be still substantial.

The Salona 38 is a bigger boat (more half a meter) and for the pictures, it seems that you can notice that on the interior. The Salona 38 will be faster than the Solaris 37 and will offer a great price regarding the quality. The Solaris and the IY are not build to a price, or at least that does not show, they are perfect and perfection does not comes cheap

MOVIE SALONA 38:

Neue Salona 38 im Schwerwettertest - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

I don't understand what the J 111 has to do with any of these boats. The J 111 is much of a racer with an interior that will only provide a very spartan cruising. Anyway to race a J111 you need a lot of experience and a crew. Have you been sailing and racing?




Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo,

We are in hibernation during winter. I have been looking for boats but the great Lakes have very limited option as far as more modern designs. Only boats here on somewhat similar style are the Js and some mid 2000s C&Cs(out of budget and not sure I'd want one). I've been crewing on different boats and has moved up to deckwork on symmetrical kites. As far as boat hrs there's no problem coz I do not miss a race night or regatta although I wished I could be steer more ithink I can handle 30-35 ft no problem. Looking more for performance cruisers that's easy to shorthand since I prefer to race on other people's boats

My budget is 50k so a small comet 26 would have been perfect. But I also look for some boats in the future since I got a house already and is only interested in investing on a boat for the rest of my life. In other words, I am not interested in saving for anything else.

As for the comparisons with the Js I was just making a point that for example the J108 is about the same price for a performance cruiser but doesn't look quite as good as the 10.98. It begs the question as to why? Is the quality not as good for the 10.98 or is it the j108 is overpriced? You've been raving about the Salonas, would be interesting if they have it in N/A.

It is nice to go on the website of Italia yachts because they have a lease calculator so yes its within reach
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  #3967  
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Dufour 36p, Salona 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Hi Paulo,

Since these boats are not found in NA you made a point of reference to the Dufour 36P (which is a good boat) and say you'll take this over it (whatever reasons).

Now how would you compare this boat to a Salona 37 (or the new 38) for example? As far as quality/perceived performance in general?

I ask this because this is a very attractive boat and I see that its possible to have it sail away for $225k which is less than a new J111 here by quite a bit with a much better interior and cockpit (unless my eyes are mistaken).

Just want to get perspectives.
I have been inside the three boats you mentioned but only sailed the Salona 38.

The J111 as I said it is a faster boat but demands a crew to be sailed fast and it is the less appropriated from the three for solo sailing even it that is possible, but its performance will be much reduced because you will not be able to exploit the boat potential alone. It happens the same regarding the two other boats but in a lesser manner. The Dufour and Salona are less nervous boats and boats more easy to sail.

Regarding cruising the Salona 38 and the Dufour 36 performance have nice interiors but in what regards cruising the storage space of the Salona has no comparison: It is much bigger. Not only the boat is bigger has it has cabinets on the Saloon and a proper storage space on the cockpit, one really good for a 38ft boat, even a pure cruising one. Regarding the J 111, it is much of a race boat with an interior to match. It only can be used for cruising in a very spartan way.

Regarding sailing the Salona is a very good boat, specially upwind and on the up scale versions a boat that has proven competitive at the World ORCI championships, fighting for the first places.

I am quite sure that the Dufour 36p is also a great sailing boat, all tests that I read indicates that. It seems that it is a specially easy boat to sail with a great downwind stability and also good upwind. As you know the boat won this year European boat of the year contest on the performance category so I am sure it is a great sailing boat. It is impossible so many experienced testers to be wrong



Regarding racing it is a bit to soon to know how the boat is going to perform in handicap racing. Personally I find it a bit on the heavy side but I can be wrong. It may well be a winner. It depends on how well the boat will be able to sail to his rating.

Regarding comparative real speeds between the Dufour 36 and the 38 I have to base the information on the 37, even if the 38 comes with more modern and fast keels and ruder (but shares the same hull):

It seems that a top Dufour 36p with a carbon mast and a 2.20m Keel is faster than a basic Salona 37 with an aluminum mast and a 1.98 keel (the old one, not the one with a torpedo):

http://www.ffv.fr/ffv/web/pratique/h...aspx?num=16013

http://www.ffv.fr/ffv/web/pratique/h....aspx?num=7258

But slower than a pretty much standard Salona 37 with a 2.25m draft.

http://www.ffv.fr/ffv/web/pratique/h...aspx?num=14821

I know that Salona (Red Zeppelin) it is a charter boat so you can imagine that it is not a up scale boat. It has just the performance pack.

You can see that up scale Salonas 37 (IBC?) even without carbon mast are way faster ( 2.35m of draft):

http://www.fgvela.com/certificadosor...440_090312.PDF

http://www.avomeripurjehtijat.fi/mit...011/L11399.pdf

I have tried to find out the ORC file of Lenco, that had made 3thd on the World ORCI championships but I could not find it. That one was a IBC version with carbon mast and its rating should be higher than any of those.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-20-2013 at 07:31 AM.
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Dehler 38

And talking about other interesting sailboats of about that size, the new Dehler 38 on a nice movie by yacht magazine:

MOVIE:

Geburtstagsgeschenk: Dehler 38 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


The song says in Spanish " que bonito", how beautiful and they are right, it is a beautiful boat on the interior and on the exterior. The boat seems also very fast and moves through the water with grace.

To be frank I just hate that big white transom. Nothing wrong for me with wide transoms but closing them with a vertical white surface just makes them look ugly and fat. If they are left open they would not be a model of beauty to my eyes but would not be ugly.

Perhaps it is just me because some brands seem to have opted for this solution (Dufour and Dehler).

Regarding price and compared with a Salona 38, one of these in a basic version would cost about as much as a Salona 38 top version, I mean epoxy hull, performance rig and lead keel.

..
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Last edited by PCP; 04-20-2013 at 10:35 AM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Paulo

That Dehler is a beautiful boat!

I went to the Croatian boat show in Split today. Very low key, big Hanse presence, and no Salona !!? Lots of rumours ...

I had a look at the Jeanneau 379, the only one of display and have to say that I really liked her. The quality seems to have gone up. All Harken deck ware, with Selden mast, boom and blocks, properly sized, decent bow roller. Very high quality interior. I think they will do well. I compared the quality on the j379 to a new Beneteau Oceanis 41 and have to say that I felt the Jeanneau was a cut above. That is not to say that I didn't like the Oceanis 41.

Cheers

David
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Chalmers study on bulbed keels.

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My conclusions from the three Chalmers investigations are:
The first conclusion is that maximum thickness of the bulb must be placed well back from maximum thickness of the fin. Otherwise an extended lowpressure area is generated on the suction side (with contributions from both the bulb and the fin) that causes flow separation. Loss of lift is obtained and a really bad keel from the hydrodynamic point of view is obtained. Two T-keel designs were investigated, one with coinciding maximum thicknesses of the bulb and fin and one with maximum bulb thickness behind the rear end of the fin. The results clearly showed that the second one was best.

The second conclusion is the a flat bottom with sharp edges (chines) of the bulb is not a competitive design. A optimization was peformed where the shape of the bulb was allowed to vary from flat bottom (with sharp edges) to rounded. Rounded showed higher performance.

The Chalmers investigations were performed about 2 years ago, the results are public and should be known by serious designers (especially as Lars Larsson was the supervisor). Fixed keel design for recent custom yachts do not show an impact of this and my personal conclusion is that keel design is an ad hoc thing.
After looking better at it I found some more interesting stuff.

As you know they have made the fin keel in lead while all others are made of cast Iron (for the same RM and draft). This of course creates a problem because being of lead allows it to have a much smaller volume and less drag and they make clear that this one is only used for comparison purposes but they use it anyway comparatively with the others and that allows us some surprising results:




The Cast iron bulbed keel nº4 was the best performer, surprisingly even better that the lead fin keel that I thing everybody would thought would gave better results (because it was made of lead). Probably it has to do with the superior lift of the bulbed keel.

This is amazing and shows that an old designed lead fin keel, the type that was used on performance boats a decade ago has about the same hydrodynamic performance (or even worse) than a modern cast iron torpedo keel, the type that is used in some modern mass produced cruisers like the Hanse 415.

Of course if they have used a modern performance keel with the foil in steel and the bulb in lead, the performance would be much better in what regards drag.

But we are only talking about hydrodynamic performance since all keels had the same RM. In reality lead allows with the same drag of an Iron keel a much lower CG and that in fact counts a lot more.

The other interesting point related with the last one is that all keels had a very similar performance and the differences in time on the simulated race were really very small. Those differences are important in what regards racing but I don't think that they are meaningful in what regards cruising, even performance cruising.

They don't say that but it seems to me clear that the one that was clearly outperformed was the Fin keel (non bulbed). Regarding this one they did not even try to make an Iron fin because it would have to be so thick that it would have a huge drag.

But I really don't agree with that point in the methodology: If all keels were made of lead the proportion in what regards drag and lift would be the same as if all were made of Iron. Why use a lead fin when all others are iron? This introduces distortions in all study when comparing the bulbed Iron keels with a lead fin.

The more important conclusion we can take is that a fin non bulbed keel is clearly outperformed in all situations.

Fin non bulbed keels were and still are used in top boats on handicap races at high level not because they are efficient but because they permit to obtain better results in compensated time...and that is sad

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-20-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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