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  #4081  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Hulls and sailboats: J 105/A 35

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...where the A35 can carry a spy with 95m2 while the J 105 was one with only 77m2.
The J 105's in North America are sailing with 89m2 .75oz spinnakers since the late 1990's.

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The easiness to sail fast downwind is one of the things that makes the A35 a great short crew racing boat. Going very fast downwind, while on the j 105 the roll movement of the boat, induced by waves or the lateral component of the mainsail has to be carefully counteracted by the weight of the crew and an experienced helmsman on the A35, at small angles of hell that fat ass starts to produce RM that rapidly grows with a small increase of heel. That produces a dampening effect that diminishes greatly roll and makes the boat easier to sail.
When I read "fat ass" I first thought you were speaking of the helmsman, since I have found that owners of racing boats often fit that description. Or at least it appears that way to a bowman.
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  #4082  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I can attest to the sea worthiness of the J/105. In many coastal and shorthanded long distance races thru out the Midwest and South Atlantic coast have seen the J/105 perform beyond expectations. Some in One Design configuration, others PHRFed out with specialty sails.

One area to remember in downwind sailing is that sail sizing has increased the actual surface area under the 89m2 (not 77) areas rule. This allows greater driving force in all wind speeds, and optimized for the lower wind ranges of under 10 knots.

As for thinking to going to symmetrical chutes vs. asymmetric, the improved designs for asymmetrics and the twist characteristics allowing the leech to twist easily in light air, yet doesn’t over twist in heavy air says a lot.
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  #4083  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Edward3 -

Very good point about the impact of the shift to the 89m2 kites on overall boat performance. Once the sailmakers figured out how to build them, the subsequent generations of the bigger spin allowed the J 105 to sail much deeper angles, rivaling conventional spinnakers for VMG sailing. Indeed in conditions where the crew can get the boat heeled to windward, projecting the luff of the sail in the same direction, J 105s are blazingly fast down to 170 AWA, though obviously you end up sailing the boat more like a Laser in those conditions, carving S-turns to keep the numbers up as the breeze and wave conditions demand.

Surprisingly, to me, the health of the J 105 class in North America has been declining in recent years, possibly due to the economy and perhaps due to people leaving the class for sport boats (which is what we did in 2007, switching to the Melges 24 and, more recently, the Melges 20). At the same time, I'm a bit surprised because prices on older J 105s have come down dramatically, and it's well known that the older, pre-SCRIMP boats are extremely competitive and continue to win major regattas. I don't think there are very many 35-footers that can be had for $85K that are as versatile across the entire range of sailing - buoys, offshore (crewed / SH-DN), cruising, beer can, etc. - and as much fun to sail.
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  #4084  
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New A35

I believe that if the J 105 had a bit better cruising interior it could give a great performance cruising boat at a very nice price.

Talking about performance boats that can be used successively for cruising and racing let me come back again to the A35: they have a new MkII version with the same hull (optimized) but with a new cabin and what looks like a better cruising interior. New images:













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  #4085  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

As we know, historically speaking, the J 105 with a bit better cruising interior was the J 109, which has proven very popular in Europe, though somewhat less so in the United States.









I've had the opportunity to do some sailing on a J 109, up around the Cape Cod area, and there's a lot to like about it. For one, it sports a higher freeboard than the J 105, which means it's not as wet, and the coach roof has been raised to provide standing headroom below. All the necessary cruising comforts are present, from the functional galley and dedicated nav table, to the relatively spacious heads located in the starboard aft quarter.



But, by contemporary standards, the boat feels small for a 35-footer, possibly due to its comparatively narrow beam. With the aft cockpit locker in place, the cockpit feels cramped with the "destoyer" wheel steering, though things feel better when you remove it to open up the back of the boat. I also found the forepeak cabin to be surprisingly snug, particularly considering the head is located aft.





Having said all that, if I was going to sail mostly singlehanded I would definitely consider the J 109, albeit with a tiller option if available. But for extended offshore cruising as a couple, I would probably look for a boat with more interior space and a larger cockpit with tiller or twin wheels. And, given that the J 109 sells in the US. for over $200K, I would only buy one used.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
As we know, historically speaking, the J 105 with a bit better cruising interior was the J 109, which has proven very popular in Europe, though somewhat less so in the United States.
...
Not really the same boat. The J 109 has a slightly different hull with considerable more beam (3.51m to 3.35m) the LWL is also bigger (9.30m to 8.99m) it is heavier (4994kg to 3515kg) and has an inferior SA/D 21 to 24 and notwithstanding is faster ( PHRF 78/81 to 90/96).

You are right, it is a very popular boat in Europe, with a very good interior that is becoming less competitive. It is a pity that the J111, now a hugely popular boat in Europe has not maintained the same high quality cruising interior, but just a very sketchy one.

In fact the J 111 is a racing boat (PHRF 39/42), with an interior with about the the same quality of the j105 one.

Maybe we will see a version with a good cruising interior? I don't know but I would like that since it is a beautiful boat with a hull much more modern than the J109 one and also a much faster boat:










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Last edited by PCP; 05-13-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo -

Sorry for being imprecise. I didn't mean the J 109 was literally the J 105 hull with a cruising interior, but that complaints about the lack of a cruising interior in the J 105 lead J Boats to come up with the J 109 - i.e., a 35-foot sprit boat (like the J 105) but with a sensible cruising interior and some other improvements.

But, as you've been pointing out with respect to the A35 and similar performance cruisers influenced by trends in shorthanded offshore ocean racing, the J 109 remains within the more traditional design mode by not extending beam aft and broadening the transom and cockpit areas. I think that's what makes it feel like a smaller, more cramped boat (when the transom box is installed).

I personally prefer the more contemporary, beamier designs, with twin rudders and hard chines carried from amidships aft to the transom. Also prefer open transom and tiller / twin wheels to the single massive "destroyer" wheel of the J 109, which pretty much blocks access to the back of the boat, creating a less-than-optimal cruising experience (an issue with the J 105, as well, but not as big a deal for the 109 or 105 in closed-transom configuration).

What I do like about the J 109, as a singlehanded boat, is that it is very stiff and sails brilliantly upwind (though you need to install some kind of in-hauler arrangement to really adjust the headsail slot). I think the interior space is perfect for one person and totally like the aft head configuration. And, of course, there's J Boat France's repuation for build quality and strength. J 109s have done most of the major offshore races, under all kinds of conditions, and have proven bullet-proof. I wouldn't hesitate to circumnavigate in one, but only solo.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Speaking of Archambault, I bet I'm not the only person who thinks the upgrade from the Mumm (Farr) 30 to the M34 for the Tour de France ŗ la Voile was a terrific one. Check out this video shot in 25 knots, gusting to 30. In the old days, you'd see Mumm 30's crashing left and right, downwind. The M34 just takes off like a rocket on rails.


If you look at the hull shape it's sort of in a transitional mode between more conventional sport boats and the newer generation of hard-chined, broad transom racing machines like the Farr 400, McConaghy 38 and Soto 30.





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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...
I personally prefer the more contemporary, beamier designs, with twin rudders and hard chines carried from amidships aft to the transom. Also prefer open transom and tiller / twin wheels to the single massive "destroyer" wheel of the J 109, which pretty much blocks access to the back of the boat, creating a less-than-optimal cruising experience (an issue with the J 105, as well, but not as big a deal for the 109 or 105 in closed-transom configuration).
...
Regarding beamier designs...sometimes appearances are deceiving, the A35 has a beam close to the one of the J109, the big difference is the beam brought aft. A really beamy boat for that size would be the Pogo 10.50 that has not only the beam brought back but also almost more 40cm of beam.

Regarding types of hulls....I like the two modern trends, with almost all beam brought aft and the more moderated trend that the J111 is an example. That do not mean that beamier boats cannot follow the same trend, some do. Look for instance to the beautiful IY 13.98 and you will find a two dimensional shape very similar to the one of the J111:





There are more modern boats going that way, almost all Italians (Grand Soleil, Solaris and so on). Yes probably they are a bit less adapted to solo sailing but I think that is more relevant specially in what regards smaller boats (less stable) or very light and fast boats designed to plan easily downwind and those are very rare among performance cruisers. The J 111 trend will have a slightly better upwind performance and will be more tricky to sail downwind very fast. But all is relative....and I really like the two trends

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-13-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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  #4090  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo -

Let me confess that since the first time you posted on the IY 13.98 it has become my new "fantasy" boat for 2-handed extended cruising. There is simply nothing about it that I don't like, save perhaps the wood decks, which I'd dispense with if that was an option.

Thanks for the clarification, for I did, indeed, mean carrying max beam further aft in the newer designs, not simply having big, fat beamy boats.

While it's difficult to argue with J Boats success in IRC / ORC with their recent designs, I'm wondering what has determined their choice to not take an even more contemporary approach. If you look at their newest designs - the J70, the forthcoming J88, and the J111, they all look very much like J Boats, with max beam right about or slightly aft of amidships:








Perhaps I should drive up to their offices and ask them.
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