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  #4091  
Old 05-13-2013
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M34

Great video, has good as this one:



Actually I think that the boat could be a lot better if it was not limited to have a beam that would allow it to be transported (legally) in a trailer.

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  #4092  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

It's interesting to me that all the M34s in the video are set up for outside spinnaker gybes. I've been racing on a NYYC Swan 42 for the past 2 seasons and we do all our gybes inside, even when it's blowing hard. The last boat I did outside gybes on was 52ft with a pedestal winch in the cockpit.

Also noticed an interesting kite dousing set-up I haven't seen before, where the bowman has one retrieval cord that goes to the lower middle of the kite and another that goes to the tack of the kite. I've used one or the other, before, but never both at once (even had the special boat hook - stowed inside the forward end of the boom - for grabbing the retrieval cords as they're always getting away from me).

Unfortunately, when we've sailed with the pro tactician from a sail loft I won't mention, he ridiculed our use of retrieval lines and banished them from the boat. Not a big deal in under 15 knots, or if you only do windward take downs or Mexicans. But it's easy to screw up leeward douses in moderate-to-strong breeze if everyone doesn't know what they're doing or if the trimmer doesn't stretch the foot so the foredeck can get to it.

I noted the M34 crews were executing very smooth spinnaker drops in breeze. Of course, all of those crew know what they're doing, sail together all the time, and actually practice. Maybe if we did those things we'd be good.
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  #4093  
Old 05-14-2013
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Rod Johnstone and J boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Paulo -

....

While it's difficult to argue with J Boats success in IRC / ORC with their recent designs, I'm wondering what has determined their choice to not take an even more contemporary approach. If you look at their newest designs - the J70, the forthcoming J88, and the J111, they all look very much like J Boats, with max beam right about or slightly aft of amidships:








Perhaps I should drive up to their offices and ask them.
Let me tell you, I have a big respect by Rod Johnstone. As you know on the last decades sailing, particularly fast and racing sailing had a much bigger development in Europe (due to a bigger public interest) than in the states. Due to the incomparable greater boat production and the number of designers competing it was natural NA to evolve faster in Europe than the States. Also the sailors in the US are not only fewer but very conservative and tending to be sailing in old boats so this would also work as a disadvantage in what regards development sailboat design evolution.

It would be natural that the boats designed by Rod Johnstone started to be less competitive than the European ones....but that is not the case and he instead of surrender to evidences, since the Americans did not appreciate enough his boats he moved part of the production to Europe and I don't mean to make the boats on licence on Europe. No, has you pointed out some of the best and more modern J boats are made by JC composites in France and modern J boats sell and are more appreciated in Europe than in the US.

The reason the Europeans like J boats is because they are winners and among the fastest boats in what regards performance.

Regarding hull design I accept reality and I try to understand sailboat and hull design through the comparative performance and yes, the hull shape design of the J boats works, it is top in what regards performance and represents one of the several lines of development in what regards modern hull design. That line of hull shapes, mainly in what regards transom design is not the main trend but there are other designers, specially Italian ones going that way.

The reason I think it is not a major line in what regards modern design is because that line of hulls (more narrow than the average with big B/D ratio and with the beam less pulled aft) while producing very fast boats downwind and upwind gives boats less easy to be sailed solo or with a short crew, specially downwind, boats that sail with more heel, more wet boats and boats with less interior space.

While the J boats (new models) are essentially used for racing in Europe, and those inconvenient are not important, most of the boats that compete with them are more used for a dual purpose (not the ones that are racing at top level, but less upgraded models that are the major part of the production).

Dufour, Salona, First or Grand Soleil use top racing boats (very high spec boats) to promote his boats (and sell them to top racers) while most of the production is sold to cruisers or cruisers that actually do a bit of club racing. Contrary to that, Jboats are mostly sold to racers or to people that race much more than cruise.

If a boat is used for dual purpose and mostly for cruising it makes sense to develop hull shapes that while being good at top crew racing can also be more easy to short crew sailing, provide more interior space, sail with less heel and give less wet boats.

Besides that and in what regards top racing some of the boats that compete with the Jboats are also designed taking in consideration solo or duo racing and the Transquadra and try to compete in two fronts (and do so successively) while J boats are designed having only crewed racing in mind. Some can be good at duo racing, but never as good as the ones that were designed taking that into consideration.

You give the impression (I believe unintentionally) that Jboat hull design are not modern or that their boat designs had not evolved. Well, that is not true, let's have a look and we will see that we can see that on the top view even if other alterations can only be seen in 3D.

The J80 a 1992 design:




The J70 a last year design:




The J 36, a 1981 design




J 37, a 1987 design




J 110 a 1995 design



The J120, a 1999 design




The j 109, a 2004 design



The J 122 a 2008 design:




The J 111 a 2011 design:



True, the J111 (2010) design is not far from the J122 (2008) design but you can see that even so the transom is larger. That can be seen in two ways: The J 122 is still a contemporary design (and that is true because the boat is winning everywhere) or that we will soon see a new upgrade in the J boats hull design and that will probably be true too. we have always seen upgrades from model to model, most in the same direction...and the boats continue to be faster and faster. I would say they never leaved the good road (even if there are several good roads)...and I hope they continue like that for many years to come

and here you have a Finish performance boat with a great cruising interior and a hull not very different from the J 111.



I have posted about the Finnflyer 42. I got in love with the boat when I meet it in Dusseldorf. Yes, there are better boats for solo sailing but the boat is so beautiful that if I had the money I would not have cared about that. This boat should be a pleasure to sail and own. Not very rational I know, but love hardly is

The J111 is an incredible boat, hugely appreciated here and I would say justifiably. You have just to see the number of boats on the 2012 Spi Ouest and the way they sail

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  #4094  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
It's interesting to me that all the M34s in the video are set up for outside spinnaker gybes. I've been racing on a NYYC Swan 42 for the past 2 seasons and we do all our gybes inside, even when it's blowing hard. The last boat I did outside gybes on was 52ft with a pedestal winch in the cockpit.

Also noticed an interesting kite dousing set-up I haven't seen before, where the bowman has one retrieval cord that goes to the lower middle of the kite and another that goes to the tack of the kite. I've used one or the other, before, but never both at once (even had the special boat hook - stowed inside the forward end of the boom - for grabbing the retrieval cords as they're always getting away from me).

Unfortunately, when we've sailed with the pro tactician from a sail loft I won't mention, he ridiculed our use of retrieval lines and banished them from the boat. Not a big deal in under 15 knots, or if you only do windward take downs or Mexicans. But it's easy to screw up leeward douses in moderate-to-strong breeze if everyone doesn't know what they're doing or if the trimmer doesn't stretch the foot so the foredeck can get to it.

I noted the M34 crews were executing very smooth spinnaker drops in breeze. Of course, all of those crew know what they're doing, sail together all the time, and actually practice. Maybe if we did those things we'd be good.

Point well taken on the spin take down retrievel lines. Seems a must for modern, fast 40+ footers. The kites are so dam big it takes 3-4 on deck and one down below hauling ass on the retrievel line. Ditto on the boat hook placed inside the front of boom.

As for leading spin sheet inside (innie) or outside (outie) of forestay. Traditional is an inside and maybe outside when blowin (old school thinking???)
Maybe the French are on to something, like the deal now is to leave jib out if blowin. Maybe some of our brethren across the pond can chime in.
Enquiring minds need to know!
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo - I think it would be more accurate to say that I believe J Boats designs to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. At the same time, keep in mind that for the longest time J Boats took two paths in their designs - one path oriented more towards racing and the other towards cruising - following the introduction of the sprit boat concept. However, those paths now appear to be converging, with the emphasis on racing / performance cruising.

If you look at the current product line, they don't really have a "cruiser" in the conventional sense anymore, like the older J/28, J/32, J/34, etc., and the J/70, J/88, J/111 and J/122 are all racers or racing-oriented (or "performance cruisers", if you will, since the 111 and 122 aren't flat-out racers like the McConaghy 38, Farr 400 or Soto 30 and 40).

It doesn't surprise me in the least that J Boats is having more success with their 35 and 40 foot boats in Europe, because IRC is nearly dead in the United States and, as you rightly note, people are content to sail older boats. The big sales success of 2012 has been the J 70, which in only a year managed to eclipse the M24 and M20, turning out 39 boats at Key West Race Week (vs 23 M24s), and 53 boats at Charleston Race Week (vs 37 M20s and 33 M20s). Of course, on the down side, the J 80 class took a beating. I expect the J 88 to succeed where the J 92, J 111 and J 122 didn't, in the U.S., primarily because of initial cost and cost-to-compete (the 88 will be built in the U.S.).

Anyway, getting back to J Boats evolutionary approach to design, in my mind I'm comparing Johnstone to Ker, Kouyoumdjian, Farr, and other contemporary NAs that are pushing the design envelope more aggressively (although Mark Mills' designs share similarities to Johnstone's, particularly his IRC 43).

In the video from Spi Ouest the M34s are ripping it up again. The TdeF à la Voile should be great this year. On the other hands, a few smaller boats came to grief in the big breeze.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Edward3 View Post
Point well taken on the spin take down retrievel lines. Seems a must for modern, fast 40+ footers. The kites are so dam big it takes 3-4 on deck and one down below hauling ass on the retrievel line. Ditto on the boat hook placed inside the front of boom.

As for leading spin sheet inside (innie) or outside (outie) of forestay. Traditional is an inside and maybe outside when blowin (old school thinking???)
Maybe the French are on to something, like the deal now is to leave jib out if blowin. Maybe some of our brethren across the pond can chime in.
Enquiring minds need to know!
We do spin douses on the 42 with 2 on the foredeck and a squirrel (usually small female) below, provided that we've got the regular mast man aboard, since he's a big boy. Always run the sheets inside, even if it's blowing hard, but we have 3 bodies running the sail back on the new leeward side, and the back of the boat doesn't bring the main across until after the kite is set on the new board. Makes a big difference.

On the Schumacher 50 we ran A-sails off a penalty pole, so we had sheets and guys and a tack line! Pole had to come off the mast before the gybe, then shifted and re-attached after the gybe. Doing basically the same thing on the Express 37 under IRC (owner debating whether to add a fixed sprit and take the rating hit - and perhaps increased slip fee).

I did bow on a SC52 back in San Francisco that started with A-sails on a penalty pole (TP 52 old style), then went to a fixed sprit (TP 52 IRC style), then added kite retrieval system through the forehatch and back to the pedestal winches in the cockpit (AC and TP52 style). Kite retrieval system is sweet on bigger boats but overkill on anything under 50ft, IMHO.

I'd like to watch the M34 take-downs in slow motion because they appear to be depowering the kite very effectively before the halyard gets blown, and it would be interesting to check out the technique. I've not seen anyone locally doing it that well, though it's been a while since we lined up against any teams of that caliber.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I've been a big fan of Mark Mills' designs for some time, but I don't recall if Paulo has discussed any of them in this forum. If memory serves, Mills was the first to start introducing the now common twin-wheel configuration on boats in the 32-43 foot range, as well as the (to my mind) sexy blister-style coachroof.

Looking at the following series, which he designed for M.A.T. in Turkey, you can see how he favors a fine entry with maximum beam shifted further aft of amidship, and carried almost to the stern, often with some hull flare aft (à la Jason Ker). The interiors of Mills boats are functional yet comfortable and pleasing to the eye - I prefer them to J Boat interiors.

M.A.T. 1010


M.A.T. 12


M.A.T. 1245


While we dont' have any of the above sailing here in Long Island Sound, we do have examples of these other Mills designs, the IRC 43, Summit 35 and Summit 40:

Summit 35


Summit 40


IRC 43


If I had the money, I'd seriously consider a Mills performance cruiser.
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Finnflyer 42/ J111

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Paulo - I think it would be more accurate to say that I believe J Boats designs to be evolutionary rather than revolutionary. At the same time, keep in mind that for the longest time J Boats took two paths in their designs - one path oriented more towards racing and the other towards cruising - following the introduction of the sprit boat concept. However, those paths now appear to be converging, with the emphasis on racing / performance cruising.

If you look at the current product line, they don't really have a "cruiser" in the conventional sense anymore, like the older J/28, J/32, J/34, etc., and the J/70, J/88, J/111 and J/122 are all racers or racing-oriented (or "performance cruisers", if you will, since the 111 and 122 aren't flat-out racers like the McConaghy 38, Farr 400 or Soto 30 and 40).

It doesn't surprise me in the least that J Boats is having more success with their 35 and 40 foot boats in Europe, because IRC is nearly dead in the United States and, as you rightly note, people are content to sail older boats. ....

Anyway, getting back to J Boats evolutionary approach to design, in my mind I'm comparing Johnstone to Ker, Kouyoumdjian, Farr, and other contemporary NAs that are pushing the design envelope more aggressively (although Mark Mills' designs share similarities to Johnston's, particularly his IRC 43).
..
Yes, I agree, with the exception that the J 122 has a true cruising interior. I really like that boat. The j 111 could also be an interesting performance cruiser if it had a good cruising interior.

I have completed the previous post with some more comments. The NAs that are closer to johnston's approach are the Nordic ones that always liked narrow "in the tradition" evolution boats. Take a look at this boat and compare this hull with the one from the J111 (I add it on the previous post).





Both designs are from 2011 and as you can see they are very similar, being the Finnflyer longer and with more fine entries since it is a 42ft boat.

I really like the Finnflyer 42, a boat that has a great cruising interior:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hey Guys let me show you the prettiest and sexiest boat on the Dusseldorf Boat show (just arrived from there): The Finnflyer 42

(put the video in HF)

YouTube - Finn Flyer 42

















The builder says about the boat :

This yacht is designed to deliver superior sailing performance, without sacrificing any of the safety and comfort needed for cruising. With a luxurious and light composite interior covered with a thin wooden veneer the yacht works perfectly for fast cruising and onboard living for the family. The equipment and fittings on deck are made for fun and safe sailing. The light and stiff yacht offers easy handling and very fast sailing.

Finn Flyer 42 | FinnFlyer

Yes I know, a lot of you guys are saying : Bullsh**t! Another racing yacht pretending to be a cruising boat .Yes, my wife thinks about the same thing about the boats that I really like...except that after carefully examining this one (Storage spaces, freezer capacity, separated bath cabin, comfort) she said that this was a nice one and ask me to buy it

I had to explain her that the boat that we both liked (by different reasons) was way out of our budget. Sad

The less classical approach has to do with the always greater importance that solo and short crewed racing has been winning mainly in France but that now is quickly expanding. Of course, has most cruising boats are sailed short handed that approach in design makes all the sense in what regards cruising boats and that's why I think it is a main trend now and it will continue to be.

I am very curious about the boat that soon will substitute the Figaro 2, the classical small solo racer, not just for mainly downwind sailing but a boat with an overall approach in what regards upwind and downwind performance. It is amazing how performant and "modern" is still the Figaro II 8Marc Lombard), a boat that is already 10 years old. Take a look at how different the hull is.



FIGARO II (BENETEAU) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


and how stable that boat is under autopilot on incredible conditions, overpowered and all:






Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
I've been a big fan of Mark Mills' designs for some time, but I don't recall if Paulo has discussed any of them in this forum. .....
You have to go back and read the thread again

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...

Too much talk Time for a boat and an American one that is a favorite among the European that like to race, the Summit 40.



















A beauty isn't it?

The hull shape is not far away from the Salona 41 (the Salona 41 has more beam and less ballast) that someone on this thread have called "old fashioned"

This boat is practically the King 40 made in the States by Summit yachts.

When Summit yachts went to Mark Mills (an Irish designer) and ask him to design the ultimate IRC racer, Mills told them that he had already done that and that the boat was winning everywhere, it was the King 40 (one of the boats that have beaten all the class 40 on the last Round the Island race).

So I guess that Summit Yachts had bought the licence to the Argentinians that were manufacturing the King 40 (King Marine) and introducing some very small modifications suggested by Mills, called it the Summit 40:

"The design is based on Mark Mills design for Summit Yachts and originally built by King Marine.

It is arguably the most successful IRC 40 internationally in the last two years.

... On the design side specifically, Mills Design has made subtle changes to the keel fin, bulb, and rudder. The keel will be a bit more forgiving coming out of down speed tacks and will improve acceleration, especially in light air and chop. The bulb has been slightly reduced in wetted surface area, and now allows a slight alteration in weight and draft for more aggressive programs ...

The rudder area and planform remain virtually the same, but the redistribution of volume along the chord will keep flow attached longer and improve heavy air control.

The new keel fin has a provision to add 65mm (2-1/2”) of extra draft and another 255 pounds (115.6 kg) of ballast. Moving the bulb down and increasing its weight will increase righting moment. The weight savings in rig, gear and equipment will still mean an all up lighter boat with more ballast and
a lower VCG, higher RM: all going in the right direction. ...

One area where improvements always yield better performance is the rig. We have made significant changes here. First, there are no longer any standard aluminum components in the rig. The entire structure is carbon. Along with this, the mast will be built by Southern Spars and will have better structural properties, and detailing. Specifically, the standard Southern rig will be 55 pounds (24.9 kg) lighter than the previous rig. An internal hydraulic mast jack is now standard. The standing rigging is stainless rod from Rig Pro, and it has significant upgrades in fittings and details. All together the new Southern Spars rig will be a significant improvement over the previous rig in stiffness, windage, and weight."






The boat weights 7100kg has a moderate beam (3.7m) a big draft 2.51m and 3 300kg of ballast, 2500kg on the bulb. The boat has a B/D of 46%.

Compare it with the one from the Pogo 10.50: 36% and remember that the one from the Pogo is at 1.95m and this one is at 2.5m. This huge difference is needed because while most of the stability for sailing in the Pogo (or in a 40 class) comes from form stability here it comes from form stability but also from the ballast.

This way of providing stability for sailing has a very positive effect on the safety stability, AVS and inverted stability that in this boat will be much better than in a 40 class boat. This boat would not pass that 40class test with the boat at 90º. This one will make a lot more force to right itself up than the maximum that is allowed on a 40 class boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....

Regarding Nordic boats that are one that I love and never posted about, the Landmark 43, a Mark Mills design and a beautiful boat:













http://www.landmarkyachts.com/Custom..._43_202_DP.pdf

http://www.landmarkyachts.com/Custom..._43_202_SP.pdf


Mills says about the boat:

Mills Design Ltd. is very proud of the Landmark 43, our latest high performance IRC Cruiser/Racer. This design builds on our unparalleled experience with winning dual purpose IRC designs both custom and production to offer true performance cruising comfort and outstanding results on the racecourse.

This design reflects not only our devotion to high performance design, but also our aesthetic drive to create dynamic high performance yachts of stunning visual appeal.

The hull has been drawn to offer the highest performance across the widest set of conditions compatible with production yacht weight controls and suitable interior volume for a performance Cruiser/Racer….

The waterline length has been set to extract some benefit from IRC’s treatment of overhangs, particularly aft, without going to the extremes of a custom racing design. This ensures a good balance of performance with positive rating attributes. The other performance factors comprise a fine entry for performance in a chop, a narrow waterline beam for reduced frontal drag, and a stern section with a flat run but not overly beamy sections to provide controllable speed offwind without an undue rise in wetted surface area for consistent pace in lighter conditions.

To achieve our weight targets the hull, deck, and interior construction are foam cored epoxy/E-glass laminates. This makes use of the higher materials properties of an epoxy laminate including greater stiffness and resistance to blistering…

The loads generated by the deep keel and bulb however are best met with an anodized alloy keel grid which offers the stiffest solution to static loadings as well as the best force distribution for unusual dynamic loadings such as a grounding…

The bright interior with 3 double cabins and large galley and nav station trimmed with wood is as comfortable for an extended family cruise as it is for racing around the buoys. The spacious head with access both from the forward cabin and the saloon ensures complete amenity.

Attention has been paid to light and ventilation below with careful hatch and portlight placement. In addition to the main hatch and foredeck hatch there are twin small hatches over the head and forward cabin spaces, and a square hatch in the coachroof centrally over the saloon. In the aft cabins there are opening portlights in the cockpit seat fronts.

Sail handling has been arranged with a shorthanded sailing in mind, with all halyards leading back to the cockpit and features items such as the batten slider system on the main and the roller furling jib which have been included in a manner that has minimal impact on the racing performance of the design while improving the shorthanded utility of the sail plan.
...
This design represents the next generation of IRC Performance Cruiser Racers, and reflects our commitment to creating beautiful, fast, and reliable performance yachts.


Key Dimensions

LOA 13.10 m
LWL 11.26 m
Beam 3.83 m
Draft 2.80 m
Displ 7650 kg
Sail Area Upwind 109,5 m2
Sail Area Downwind 271,5 m


Some movies:



I also posted some videos of the King 40 and we talked and posted about the Summit Md 35. DaisdePlaya wants to have one.

Regarding the M.A.T.we did not talk about them. I knew the company but did not know that they were making Mills designs on a production basis (they made top designs by command). The MAT 12 seems to be basically the same boat as the King 40 and the Summit 40. That is a great boat but have it with 3 names. I don't understand how that is made, normally a designer sells a design to a boat builder, maybe in this case it is only an authorization to build?

Do you know about the prices? Turkey is renown to make good quality boats at a good price. It may be very interesting. The problem with those boats (Summit, Lamdemark) is price, at least for the ones that don't have a lot of money.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Rod Johnstone and J boats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
As you know on the last decades sailing, particularly fast and racing sailing had a much bigger development in Europe (due to a bigger public interest) than in the states. Due to the incomparable greater boat production and the number of designers competing it was natural NA to evolve faster in Europe than the States. Also the sailors in the US are not only fewer but very conservative and tending to be sailing in old boats so this would also work as a disadvantage in what regards development sailboat design evolution.
Paulo,
I drop in on this thread every so often and this statement started me thinking. Why do you think the European market for new boats, and boats in general has been so much stronger than the market in the States?

What is the sailing community doing differently there to build interest in our sport?

I realize this is probably a topic for another thread, but it might be an interesting discussion.

Jim
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