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  #4101  
Old 05-14-2013
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Desire and love

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMcGee View Post
Paulo,
I drop in on this thread every so often and this statement started me thinking. Why do you think the European market for new boats, and boats in general has been so much stronger than the market in the States?

What is the sailing community doing differently there to build interest in our sport?

I realize this is probably a topic for another thread, but it might be an interesting discussion.

Jim
Jim, welcome back

That is a good question. I never thought about that. Well, it is like that but why?

I don't think it has to do with the sailing community. If the guys around this forum are an example of the American sailing community, that is a great one.

I guess that is more a cultural thing I mean it has to do with what is valued in society. American rich guys want motorboats, a big motorboat is a sign of success and power....a big sailboat is not as cool, it is slow, it has not the power.....I am just guessing but reality is that while in Europe is cool and sophisticated for a rich man to have and race a big new sailboat that seems not to be the case with rich Americans, at least not many.

Sailboats are dreams, like motorboats and many other toys. For being socially desirable they have to imply status and be trendy.

Most on this forum that have boats because they like to use them but that is not the main case. Most that have boats make a ridiculous use of them. The boat I have bought recently had 5 years and 500 hours on the engine. Most 5 year old boats have that on the engine. The guy that sold it to me needed a paid professional sailor as crew for the only time he went sailing into Greece. He also raced the boat (6 races in all) and paid to a crew to race it. After selling his almost new boat to me he bought a Jeanneau 56. I have no idea for what he needs a bigger (and slower) boat. Probably to impress his friends?

Not all are like this but this is an important and fundamental part of the market, people buy new boats because they can and they want it, because they love and desire them. What you love and desire has always social connotations, I mean nobody wants and desires what is not desired and wanted by many.

Clearly Europeans desire more sailboats than Americans. That makes sailing more popular here, allows a bigger market, a faster sailboat evolution and gives more importance to sail as a sport.

Why? Well, I have no idea. Maybe for the same reason Europeans like football (soccer) and F1 and the Americans like the other football and Nascar?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-14-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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  #4102  
Old 05-14-2013
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Re: Desire and love

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I am just guessing but reality is that while in Europe is cool and sophisticated for a rich man to have and race a big new sailboat that seems not to be the case with rich Americans, at least not many.

Sailboats are dreams, like motorboats and many other toys. For being socially desirable they have to imply status and be trendy.
What do you think drives that status? Is it how sailing is portrayed in movies, television and advertising? In books?

It's probably ten years now since I spent time in Ireland, and Spain (too long now), but I don't remember sailing being big in television or advertising. But then it was before I got my first boat so maybe I just didn't notice.

This ties in with an ongoing discussion I have with my wife. With fuel costs so high here and so many power boats tied to the dock or sitting in the yard, I've been surprised more people haven't turned to sailing. When I ask power boaters in our marina this question they all tell me "because it's too complicated."

The exception is a trawler owner who helms a race boat occasionally.

I can't figure out why sailing isn't more popular here.

Sorry didn't mean to sidetrack this thread....
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  #4103  
Old 05-14-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo -

I stand corrected and thank you for not making me search for the earlier postings.

The Landmark 43 is an absolutely gorgeous boat, and we are fortunate to have at least one example of it locally... sort of. "Cool Breeze" (sistership to the immensely successful "Tiamat") sails in Long Island Sound but I think it's a Mills' IRC 43 before it started being produced under the Landmark brand. It is always listed in the regatta entry list as a Mills 43.



As for pricing on the M.A.T boats, here's what I'm finding on YachtWorld.com:

MAT 12

2007 - 154.000 Euros / $199,500
2008 - 165.500 Euros / $214,500

MAT 1010

2011 - 2 boats listed at $153,000 (118.000 Euros) and $175,000 (135.000 Euros)

Those strike me as fairly reasonable prices, though obviously one would want a survey and full inventory to get a better perspective. By comparison, the Landmark 43 is selling for over $350,000 (270.500 Euros), which puts it up in J 122 territory. Between the two, I'd take the Mills boat over the Johnstone boat, just for that sexy coachroof alone.
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  #4104  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

JimMcGee -

To answer your question about the status of yacht ownership in the U.S. vs. Europe, I think it's important to look at things regionally.

Consider that large swathes of the U.S. are landlocked, so it is understandable that yachting would not have prestige in places lacking a maritime history. And while the same could likely be said for some parts of Europe, in general most Europeans live not too far from some major body of water. Even the Swiss enjoy the proximity to Lake Geneva and Lake Garda, two very popular sailing spots that attract an incredible number of boats.

By contrast, if you travel to the Eastern U.S. seaboard, particularly places with a very rich yachting tradition, like Newport, Long Island Sound, New York, and Charleston, you will find that yachts retain their well-deserved status as dream objects for many people. Traveling east through Long Island Sound, one is impressed by the number of yacht clubs sprinkled along both sides - Larchmont, American, Marmaroneck, Oyster Bay, Newport, Marion, Hyannis Port, etc. In those places, you find a significant number of people investing in sailboats and, for the most part, actively using them.

Admittedly, the economic downturn of the past 5 years has put a damper on the entire industry, though with a few bright spots - e.g., the explosion of the new J 70 class, and the relative health of sport boats in general. In Long Island Sound, big boat racing has suffered, particularly in IRC - recent attendance at the popular American YC "Spring Series" was down significantly this month, for example. And, from what I can tell, not a lot of new boats are coming into the area, though, again, I think this is largely the economy.

One area where the U.S. lags far behind Europe, however, is in corporate sponsorship of sailing events. Apart from the Americas Cup (which, to be quite honest, couldn't do what it does without massive infusions of private money), corporations are not inclined to spend their marketing dollars on a sport which, in terms of demographics, is a decidedly niche market. Meanwhile, in Europe (at least until recently, since there, too, they are feeling the cold economic winds blowing), many of the largest corporations spend millions of euros on sponsorsing all manner of local, regional and international yachting events. If you caught the start and finish of the recently concluded Vendée Globe RTW Race, there were almost 300K fans in attendance, and at least that many probably passed through the event compound in the weeks leading up to the start. The event also attracted millions and millions of media "impressions" through TV, radio, print and Internet channels.

Frankly, there is nothing comparable to this in the United States, where the largest events - e.g., Key West Race Week, St. Francis YC Big Boat Series and the NYYC events - attract almost no attention outside specialty media, and rely on the largesse of a handful of sponsors like Rolex and Audi.

And if you'll allow me a personal reflection, I frankly believe that American culture has lost the appetite and appreciation for the kind of adventurous spirit that sailing embodies. Today, kids idolize the "money" sports like basketball, baseball and American football, or lose themselves in the virtual realities of video games. While the same is perhaps true in Europe, I suspect there remains there a stronger fascination with the lure of the sea, with many entities in place to promote that fascination and help make it a reality.

In a way, corporations actually do their part to promote the sailing ethos. I can tell you for sure that MACIF's return-on-investment for François Gabart's Vendee campaign was massive (pun), not simply because he won the race in very exciting fashion, but because he is, in my opinion, the living embodiment of what every parent would want their child to be. And you could make a long list of similar figures - sailing role models, if you will. I challenge you to make a comparable list of American sailors today. I'm not saying they don't exist - although the entire roster of Oracle Team USA contains only 2 Americans - but they are not promoted as part of a sailing lifestyle that parents would want their children to embrace.

Anyway, this is way too long and in the wrong forum. My apologies for hijacking the thread. Back to very interesting boats.
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  #4105  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo.. I wonder if you've ever looked into a PNW builder/designer Paul Bieker.. Interesting stuff, some samples here:

Sail Projects
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  #4106  
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Paul Bieker and the Riptide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Paulo.. I wonder if you've ever looked into a PNW builder/designer Paul Bieker.. Interesting stuff, some samples here:

Sail Projects
Two years ago we talked about the Riptide 35 MKII project :


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...There is a Bieker 35 MKII on the design board!!

The boat, like the MKI, is very light a boat with a big Ballast/Displacement ratio with a very deep bulb (2.63m) with a relatively narrow beam and a huge spinnaker pole.

Some posts back I have said that modern performance sailboat come in two main design trends, the ones that have origin on the Open solo classes and the ones that come from the more classical tradition, Mum, Farr, Archimbault and that's on that tradition that the Bieker is founded, but with the water ballast from the the solo boats.








That is not probably a very easy boat to sail and not properly a boat for solo sailing but with a short crew should be a blast and the race results show that. This new one is even faster. Take a look at the polar speeds:







The boat is very interesting but the design seems a bit old, I mean the aesthetics and the hull has only a chine, it seems that another could be used, at least if we consider that most of the better designers know what they are doing and probably two rudders would help to control the boat at high speeds downwind, with a short crew.








But surprise, the last drawings show that Bieker is bringing the design to that direction. The extra chine is not yet there, but the two rudders and an overall more modern design give a much more modern look to the boat. A beautiful one and very fast one for sure.

It is a pity that with 2.63m draft the cruising options are a bit limited, but with a swinging keel, Pogo's style, this one could not only be a great racing boat but also a great cruising boat, for the ones that like to travel light and have fun while sailing.





Now the boat is on the water and new interesting designs, like a Riptide 41 and a 25 had been developed.

All interesting boats and in the same direction as several French designers are working.

Regarding the 25 the hull is much more modern than the previous Shilshole 27 and it seems a great boat to have. It will provide great fun, fast sailing and will be able to do some cruising. Paul Bieker describes the boat like this:

Although the Riptide 25 will have sportboat performance we do not think of it as a sportboat. It has enough stability and interior space to be comfortable on longer races and extended cruising. Water ballast means that the boat can be sailed effectively when short-handed.



This type of very pleasant boats to sail with cruising capacity are one of the trends in sailboat design, with several European boat builders and designers working on their development. My preferred is Sam Manuard Seascape 27.

http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/...tage2_ver6.pdf





Probably the boat is not as faster as the Riptide 25 but it will be close, it will cost probably half the price, it has not complicated systems like water ballast and has a swing keel that will allow it to be transported in a trailer.

The Riptide has a fixed keel and water ballasts, it will be faster...but the difference will justify the difference in price and most of all the difficulty in transporting the boat?

The same can be said about the Riptide 35 MKII: A great boat, canting keel water ballast, lovely hull and all, but certainly hugely expensive. The boat can be used for cruising but only a very rich guy will have it for that and even for racing...it will cost the price of a top open racing boat, if not more.

Don't take me wrong, I like the Riptide 35 and 40, they are certainly incredible boats to sail but boats with that complexity (canting keel and water ballast) are in Europe racers, Open boats without a cruising interior.

What in Europe they are offering as top performance cruisers are boats that offer some of these characteristics, regarding weight, hull shape and in some way performances, but simplified to be affordable and also with systems that allows them to have variable draft or reduced draft. I am talking about boats like the wauquiez Opium 39, the JPK 30 and the Pogo cruising line among others.

Having a Riptide is passing to another level: if compared to cars would be having a true racing car street legal instead of a true sports car. That is great but very few can own that not to mention being able to drive it

The Riptide 35 Mk II:







The 35 and the 41:





The 41:














Blue Passing Through | Northwest Yachting Magazine

Paul Bieker is certainly on of the most interesting contemporary American NA, the evolution of his designs on the last years have been great and I can only hope that it can continue like that. If so we have much to wait for

Regards

Paulo
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  #4107  
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Tall ships sailing:

I really like this movie. First of all, in this one the Tall ships are really sailing and then it is on "my river" on my home town. Put it full screen and enjoy.

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Rm 1200

Very nice movie of a RM 1200 (the 1260 previous model) voyaging with a family:

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Old 05-16-2013
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DSS system and Hugh Welbourn

DSS is among the new revolutionary stability systems for sailboat the one that looks more promising to me, specially to boats of 45ft and above that have a more steady motion over the water.

Making a revue for the ones that are more distracted:



This basically works like an airplane wing (or foil) that creates lift. On an airplane it takes him out of the ground, in a boat opposes sail forces in what regards heel, creating RM without ballast at the cost of some drag.

This is a good explanation:

My Sailing: Dynamic Stability Systems Go-fast gear

After experimentation in smaller sailboats the system is finally being applied to production boats and not surprisingly to boats over 45fts. The first one comes as a surprise because it is not a racer not even a cruiser-racer but just a performance cruising boat, a new brand : JKyachts, and a new boat, the JK50.

Unfortunately things did not went well and the owner changed direction and the hull is for sale. Probably a good deal to someone since it seems to be a good hull, DSS or not.

JKyachts builders of the JK50DSS - JK yachts











some more information here:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/JKyac...=photos_stream

There are also some interesting proposals like this one made by Fox (the designers of Capado, the small Fox 10.20 that he have been following on a circumnavigation) for a Sly 50:

FoX Technology - Avant Projet SLY 50



But most of all it seems that Infinity, a brand know more fore making luxury motorboats and that has helped developing the system in small sailboats is going to advance with a new 100ft with DSS, this one:

Infiniti 100S from Q&K on Vimeo.



Infiniti Yachts | Infiniti YachtsInfiniti Yachts

It seems that Hugh Welbourn, one of the most talented contemporary NAs is going to have a chance to have his work really tested where it seemed more suited to work: A big sailing boat.

I wish him good luck, if someone deserves it is him that through the years has managed to go with this major development ahead while designing other not so well known boats that notwithstanding are winning races.

...
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Old 05-16-2013
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Re: Paul Bieker and the Riptide

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This type of very pleasant boats to sail with cruising capacity are one of the trends in sailboat design, with several European boat builders and designers working on their development. My preferred is Sam Manuard Seascape 27.

http://www.biehlmarin.com/mediapool/...tage2_ver6.pdf





Probably the boat is not as faster as the Riptide 25 but it will be close, it will cost probably half the price, it has not complicated systems like water ballast and has a swing keel that will allow it to be transported in a trailer.
Regards

Paulo
I really like the concept of the Seascape 27. Whatever happened at the EYOTY 13? I never was able to get any details on why the Seascape did not fare well at the tests? Anyone know?
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