Interesting Sailboats - Page 413 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1265Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #4121  
Old 05-19-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Rocker and hull design

We have discussed here the shapes of modern hulls and transoms but mostly in what regards a superior view. When we look at the lateral view many surprises will appear and hulls that seemed very similar are not so similar after all. Hulls are a 3 dimensional object and it is difficult to have a complete perception of its shape.

Older sailboats had not a possibility to have what the French call a hull "tendue", meaning a hull with little rocker and for the less informed in nautical jargon, a hull where the lateral line of the boat has small angles in what regards the line that starts at the bow (at water line levell) and ends at the transom, the longitudinal profile of the boat.

They could not have that because the technology didn't allow boats light enough to do that but even so fast boats and race boats had a lot less rocker than more heavier cruising boats.

A racing boat from the 30's



and some old but more recent cruisers. Look at the angle of the entry on the bow and the angle out in the transom:









Some ahead of their time found the importance of beam and light construction in what regards controlling and diminishing rocker. The best example are Herreshoff, father and son. Look at this Herreshoff 38 a 31 old design and look at the hull profile and rocker.

Herreshoff 38



Another great example of an even older cruising boat with little rocker and way ahead of its time is the Farr 38:



Anyway I guess that Herreshoff father took the idea of more beamier boats with less rocker from some traditional boats. Look at this beauty and see how rocker is a lot less than on those heavy cruisers:



In what regards modern top race boats, rocker was diminished to a very slight one. This was to do with the boat being able to plan, going well over its hull speed. The idea is to sail the boat over the water, not inside the water like on the old days (because rocker can change a lot with the size of the boat I will post mostly boats between 35 and 40ft with some few exceptions).

A Farr 400:


A class40 racer:


A M34


Mini Racer:



Regarding cruising or day sailing these hull shapes have two problems: First they are designed not to be loaded and secondly they are not designed to be comfortable in a sea motion.

Cruising can assume many forms. Some don't cruise extensively and don't need to carry any considerable load and for all comfort is a relative issue.

Some just don't care about that and want to have the maximum sailing pleasure. Regarding loading, narrow shapes like a F400 would not be able to carry any significant load and a big load would probably make the boat unstable but the situation is different in what regards solo racers like the 40class racer. Yes the performance would be affected (still a very fast boat compared to a cruiser) but because the boat is very beamy it can take a significant load without the waterline going way out of his lines. The proof is that some days ago a Chinese circumnavigated non stop, quite fast, in one and that means necessarily a considerable initial load on the boat.

Between cruiser racers, fast cruising boats and daysailers-racers there are some very fast sailboats with lines just a bit more soft then the ones used on the top racers. These boats will not plane as easily as the top racers above, specially loaded but they can plan in ideal situations and most of all can be easily sailed on that region slightly above hull speed and that makes them very fast performance cruising boats.

BR38


JPK1080


Pogo 10.50


Sydney 43


Columbia 32


HP850


HP1030


Opium39


RM1200


A35


Surprise


FinFlyer 32


J105


Farr 42


Finflyer 34


J80


J92


Sydney 40


Sydney 32


Sydney 36


Sydney 38


Regarding comfort on a seaway these boats are not as uncomfortable as race boats and there are some in this forum that own several of these type of boats and none is complaining. There are even one that passed to an Opium 39 coming from a theoretically much more comfortable and heavy boat, a Dehler 41cr. The program was a fast cruising boat for the family, no racing involved and I was a bit afraid that the family would find the boat a bit uncomfortable. Well, no. They all love the boat and find that it has a lot of storage and a great interior.

This approach in what regards sailing boats and hull rocker imply not an heavy boat or a beamy boat or both but it is not an exclusive of very fast performance boats, there are mass market boats with this approach and it depends much on the designer tastes in what regards a cruising boat and hull design. For example Finot and Marc Lombard generally design cruising boats with little rocker while Philippe Briand or Farr (at least for Bavaria) design boats with more rocker.

For instance look at these boats from Finot/Conq and Marc Lombard:

First 31.7


Oceanis 323


Oceanis 331


Oceanis 37


Benetau Oceanis 41


Jeanneau 42i


Jeanneau 36i





And these ones where even in performance boats Farr or Philippe Briand use a lot more rocker:




First 40.7


First 40


SunOdyssey 409


Jeanneau 379


Having more rocker in a performance boat is not necessarily a bad thing specially in what concerns offshore conditions and going upwind with very bad weather. It is not by coincidence that the First 40 is a great boat on the Sydney-Hobart. But a lot of rocker will not be good for going fast downwind and boats with little rocker are not necessarily bad in nasty weather upwind or otherwise. The last Hobart was won precisely by one of those boats (little rocker), a Sydney 43. They are good upwind in heavy weather (probably more uncomfortable) and downwind will smoke a boat with a big rocker.

Even if the tendency seems to go into having less rocker things are not linear. Look for instance for this two Bavaria 36, the first was designed by JJ and the second one (that replaced that model) by Farr. The first one was faster, lighter and had less rocker:





And there are some surprises, for instance the new Elan 400 and new Dehler 41, view from above look to have the same kind of hull, but that is not so. The Dehler has considerably more rocker:





Curiously in the past the Dehler had less rocker:

Dehler 36


Then the hugely (and justifiably) popular Dehler 39 had a lot of rocker and I don't know to what point the choice to maintain that type of hull (in what regards rocker) was from the designer or if it was the company that wanted to maintain some of the previous boat characteristics and said so to the Designer.

Dehler 39


Dehler 38


Regarding Xp yachts it seems that the tendency is to have slightly less rocker on the new boats (but lots of rocker on the XC line):

x35


xP33


xP38


Some more sailboats to give a general picture:

Oceanis 322


OVNI 345


IMX 40


Hanse 370


Arcona 410


Salona 41


J122


Comet 41s

Grand Soleil 40


Hanse 40


Hanse 415


As you can see the variations regarding rocker and lateral shape of the hull are even more than in what regards the superior view of the hull, beam and shape of the transom. There are for all tastes
EricKLYC likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-19-2013 at 05:20 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4122  
Old 05-20-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Beauty in a sailboat

Interesting take by Pascal Conq (from Finot/Conq) about beauty and sailboats on the last Superyacht Design Symposium, in Miami, FLA:

Advances in the design of performance cruising sailing yachts : Evolution of the architectural proportions

Let's start with "beauty". What is "beauty" for a yacht, anyway ?

Martin Francis told us : "Never forget the length, is it so important", and he's so right !

Bill Tripp showed us the black and white picture of a one hundred year old Herreshof racing design, long, thin, elegant.

German Frers told us something I've always believed, too : "Beauty doesn't only come from the harmony of shapes and lines, but also from the pleasure the boat provides to her owner and crew".

We could also add this common expression : "Fast is beautiful !"

Of course, nothing is this simple, it is all a question of proportions. Proportions is architecture.

Like beauty, performance comes from a set of proportions. Like beauty, they evolve with time, and with time comes acceptance. As Francis Martin said, after all, the famous motoryacht Eco has now become a classic.

The main recent advances and the evolution of performance stem from a major shift in proportions. Our FC cube 100' is an example of this on a 100 feet superyacht.

This evolution is based on 4 pillars :

- Materials : Carbon, honeycomb, foam and epoxy, laid up and cured together, allow a huge saving on the structural platform weight. Carbon is quite simply the gold of our times. For the same weight, a part made of carbon can be up to 20 times stronger than one in stainless steel. This tremendous gain can then be shared : one part for the comfort, one part for the performance, and one part for the strength and higher safety factors throughout.

- Open : The open spirit comes from the open racing rules, it is an incentive to research in all directions. It allows to test new concepts, at a reduced scale in the Mini-Transat (that we have won 5 times in the last 25 years), and at full scale in the Vendée Globe that we have won 4 times. Futhermore, an essential point is that the open spirit is very close to cruising, because the boats are sailed short- or singlehanded.

- Studies : The new tools, like the CFD and FEA numerical codes, are now really affordable, precise and usable.

- Power : The open spirit provides almost free righting moment. Using solutions like increased width, water ballasts and canting keels, we completely transform the proportions, the ratios and the shapes. We dramatically reduce heeling as well. Power then comes more from the Gz term (horizontal distance from center of gravity to center of buoyancy) than from the D term (displacement) in the righting moment formula Rm=D*Gz.

Reducing displacement allows one to reduce it even further, that's the whole point ! The keel can be made lighter, the vertical position of the center of gravity is of less importance.

This changes proportions, hull shapes, width, and all the ratios like sail area/displacement, power/displacement,...
Sailing yachts once were narrow, they will be wide, mark my words ! It works!

And by an amazing stroke of luck, when increasing the width, one gains inside volume, just what we want in a cruising boat...

The circle is now complete...


Fast is beautiful or putting in another way very familiar to Architects: Form follows function. Nothing new about it and a familiar concept. it works for me

...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4123  
Old 05-20-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Elan 400





The Elan 400 is one of the more interesting new boats around. It has a very nice hull with a moderate beam for a 40ft, a transom that will make it easy to sail downwind, a great stability curve, not only in what regards sailing power but also in what regards AVS and reserve stability. Also a very good proportion between positive and negative stability. It has also a nice interior. They have now online a very good virtual visit:

http://www.elan-yachts.com/en/performance/elan-400.html







Looking at the Polar speed we can see that this is a fast boat but not a boat that will plan easily and that is a pity. Looking at the boat and hull we can get that impression but a better look, specially in 3D will show that the hull is very rounded and deep. That will be great for comfort, but not good in what regards planing. The reasons are two, that moderated beam (that certainly will make it a good boat upwind) and the weight: 7500kg.

This is not an expensive boat and the building techniques are not top due to price management. It would be easy to make this boat with less 1000/1500kg for a higher price. That should be enough to change the Polar curve in what regards the wind needed to have it planing, that now is as high as 25/30k.



Don't take me wrong, this is a fast boat that will make almost 8K with 10K wind....but I am not even sure that it will be faster than a Salona 41 and looking at both boats this one looks a lot faster.



Not a match for a boat like the Opium 39 or the JPK 38, specially the last one that is one of the most interesting performance cruisers around.

....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-20-2013 at 08:50 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4124  
Old 05-21-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Gunboat

Two movies with the Gunboat presenting a very interesting interview with Nigel Irens and P.Johnstone about the boat history and design criteria.

Tiger Lily version 2 from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.



caribbean 600 start rushes from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.



N.Irens/P.Johnstone interview from Richard Langdon on Vimeo.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4125  
Old 05-21-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
VK 35 an unexpected boat.

This one is a very interesting boat in several counts, unusual also in what regards material, building techniques and even regarding the place were it is built, not to mention a not named NA.

The VK is a Swedish firm, the design office is in Sweden the yard in Poland but the prefabrication of the construction aluminum alloy is done in the Netherlands (where some of the better naval work in aluminium is made).

Regarding the type of yacht it is not the type of yachts that is associated with aluminium boat building. The Yacht seems very fast, very seaworthy with a great stability curve and an unusual frame structure that seems just great to me. This is not a hull and a cabin welded together but a single structure, like an airplane, a mono-bloc.

The bulb is lead and the foil is solid aluminium machined from a block.

The boat is a bit odd in what regards light openings that are on the small side. That has to do with that unusual boat structure but even so I kind of like it. A very strong and fast boat for a guy that likes to go fast and travel to faraway places in a small boat in a kind of spartan way but also wants to make some racing. I doubt that it will be a market big enough for it and it is a pity. They have projects for bigger boats but on those the small openings just don't make sense.













Windward balance point at RM30:27,6kNm.....Yaw = 5.3 degrees.....V wind = 17.4knot......V hull = 7.4knots







[/URL]







VK35 Technical data
Length overall = 10,6m
Length at waterline = 10,45m
Beam overall = 3,5m
Beam at waterline = 2,6m
Depth at midsection = 3,4m
Free board at midsection = 1,3m
Draft = 2,17m
Displacement = 5160kg
Ballast = 1600kg
Engine M3.28 20kW (27.2hp)
Mainsail area = 38.5m2
Genoa area = 36.7m2
Spinnaker area = 110m2

http://www.vk-yacht.com/media/photo_...ion/index.html

http://www.vk-yacht.com/vk35.html

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-21-2013 at 07:10 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4126  
Old 05-21-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,627
Thanks: 68
Thanked 187 Times in 179 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Interesting Sailboats

That one is interesting... very round sections - and no chine - compared to many of the newer offerings. Almost makes Jeff's 'floating cone' analogy from the other thread more relevant

Interesting too that the keel fin is an integral part of the structure.. is that aluminum too? or is it stiffened internally? No keel bolts to worry about here!!
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4127  
Old 05-21-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
That one is interesting... very round sections - and no chine - compared to many of the newer offerings. Almost makes Jeff's 'floating cone' analogy from the other thread more relevant

Interesting too that the keel fin is an integral part of the structure.. is that aluminum too? or is it stiffened internally? No keel bolts to worry about here!!
More I read more I like the way that boat is built:

"The construction incorporates specialized integrated and solid members which increase strength and improve construction quality:

The fin of the keel is made from a solid aluminum alloy formed by CNC milling machine.

The bottom internals are integrated through a unifying top plate properly shaped by a high accuracy laser cutter.

The bow is made from a solid aluminum alloy block, formed by CNC milling machine.

Great attention has been paid to the continuity of the internals in order to avoid stress concentration points and to allow the flow of the stresses through the structure. Highly loaded areas (mast base, chain plates, winches etc.) are topically reinforced.

In general the strength of the construction is according to the distribution of the loads without any compromise in the dimensioning of the material but with great attention not to add unnecessary weight.

Short saying, the yachts in the VK series of aluminum performance sailing yachts are light and strong quality constructions."


Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to PCP For This Useful Post:
Sapwraia (05-21-2013)
  #4128  
Old 05-22-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Alerion 41

How can a boat be so beautiful and even so have a very nice useful interior?



Alerion 41 from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.




Modern hull and rig too!



I am in love with that boat, I wand one!!!



Not now, but when I am older and wiser...what a pleasure to own and care such a beautiful thing. I am rely amazed with the interior, Very good work there, even better than on the outside. Chapeau to the designer team.

The only problem would be price: this beauty costs over half a million dollars, but at least we can see where they have been spent: beauty does not come cheap and beauty in this case it will be forever.

http://www.sailmagazine.com/sailboat-reviews/alerion-41

....
Faster likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-22-2013 at 08:17 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4129  
Old 05-22-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Cruising: Capado, Fox 10.20




The last two movies of Capado and its young crew while circumnavigating. They have become quite good doing movies and the last ones are really nice. Good music too. Enjoy



__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4130  
Old 05-22-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,164
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Maestro 345

Does anybody knows what is happening with this babe?

There were some here interested in this boat that seems a fantastic one but beside nicer photos on the site?... nothing. I mean the boat seems finished for some months now, why we have not photos on the water or any new information on the site. I am really very curious about this one, does anybody has new information?











__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:50 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.