Interesting Sailboats - Page 414 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1265Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #4131  
Old 05-22-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 192
Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
opc11 is on a distinguished road
Re: Elan 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post




The Elan 400 is one of the more interesting new boats around. It has a very nice hull with a moderate beam for a 40ft, a transom that will make it easy to sail downwind, a great stability curve, not only in what regards sailing power but also in what regards AVS and reserve stability. Also a very good proportion between positive and negative stability. It has also a nice interior. They have now online a very good virtual visit:

http://www.elan-yachts.com/en/performance/elan-400.html







Looking at the Polar speed we can see that this is a fast boat but not a boat that will plan easily and that is a pity. Looking at the boat and hull we can get that impression but a better look, specially in 3D will show that the hull is very rounded and deep. That will be great for comfort, but not good in what regards planing. The reasons are two, that moderated beam (that certainly will make it a good boat upwind) and the weight: 7500kg.

This is not an expensive boat and the building techniques are not top due to price management. It would be easy to make this boat with less 1000/1500kg for a higher price. That should be enough to change the Polar curve in what regards the wind needed to have it planing, that now is as high as 25/30k.



Don't take me wrong, this is a fast boat that will make almost 8K with 10K wind....but I am not even sure that it will be faster than a Salona 41 and looking at both boats this one looks a lot faster.



Not a match for a boat like the Opium 39 or the JPK 38, specially the last one that is one of the most interesting performance cruisers around.

....
Paulo,

I was wondering how one uses a polar chart to determine planning speed? If it's too much of a hassel, no worries. I'm just not very familiar with polar charts. it seems like a very interesting way to understand performance. In general, how accurate are these charts compared to actual performance?

Regards,
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4132  
Old 05-23-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Polar speeds: Elan 400 - Pogo 12.50

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo,

I was wondering how one uses a polar chart to determine planning speed? If it's too much of a hassel, no worries. I'm just not very familiar with polar charts. it seems like a very interesting way to understand performance. In general, how accurate are these charts compared to actual performance?

Regards,
The accuracy of a Polar speed chart depends on the program that is used by determine it and on the provided information. The ones made by main designers are very accurate (some few tens of a knot difference at most). They were made using very expensive and sophisticated VPP programs that were used to design and perfect the boat. They have as reference all data regarding the boat and can calculate, based on fetailed and complex CFD criteria, the performance in each wind condition and point of sail.

You can buy on the net a 50 bucks VPP, a very simple program that will accept just some reduced boat data (anyway you don't have acees to more) and has as base, not a very complex CFD core, but just some simple mathematical relations. You cannot expect to have very reliable information from there. The difference of efficiency it will be like the one between a hand calculator and a very powerful and sophisticated computer. In fact most complex CFD programs need not a powerful PC to be run but really a big industrial computer.

Regarding Polar they are not very different than the speed predictions showed on the ORC files, not in a Polar way. ORC predictions are also very reliable.

http://vtr.com/vtroceanico/images/CH...ura_Sangre.PDF

The predictions are only valid to a given boat in a given configuration, I mean keel and sails used and regards ideal conditions flat sea, high performance sails and a perfect trim with the boats in minimum sailing condition.

If sea conditions and waves has not a great importance in what regards downwind sailing (the waves can even help in what regards speed) that is not the same in what regards upwind sailing where the waves will slow the boat down and more a beamier one than a narrow one.

Regarding Polars that is just a way of showing that data in a graphic way. When it is not said otherwise all wind and angle speeds are true and as most of us just don't sail with true wind speed or wind angle that can be confusing.

When a Polar has two side (a full circle) many times it has true wind and angles on the right side and apparent winds and angles on the left side.

Around the outside edge of a Polar is normally the place were the wind angles are indicated (on top of rays), the boat speeds are marked by irregular lines inside the polar. Each of those irregular lines is correspondent to a given wind speed. The correspondent wind speed is marked on the irregular line (small numbers) or it is given by a color code. The boat speed will be given by the intersection of those irregular lines with the several circular lines inside the polar, or its relative position regarding them. Each of those circular lines correspond to a speed that is normally marked on the lateral edge of the polar in front of each semi-circle.

Now it is simple, as we have seen the downwind speed is more independent of sea conditions than the upwind speed, so the data is pretty reliable on normal conditions for those wind speeds. We are talking about 40ft boats that have a hull displacement speed of about 8.5K. Normally speeds immediately over 8.5K are not called planning speeds but semi-planing speeds. What you could call planning speed has not a uniform definition but I would say that regarding this size of boat we would be talking of speeds over 11K, not surfing waves, but a constant speed.

Now have a look at the Polar of the Elan 400 and compare it with the one of a Pogo 12.50 (that notwithstanding the name is also a 40ft):





Now, we can see that the speeds upwind are very similar, even if I believe that with waves, dead upwind the Elan will be slightly faster, downwind we will have a boat that is a semi-planing boat (Elan) against a planing boat (Pogo) and the difference in speeds after 75º starts to build up and at 135/140º, the best Pogo wind angle, they are just huge.

Even considering the best downwind speed angle of Elan (150º) the differences are very big:

At 100º with 16K wind the Elan will be making 8.5K, the Pogo 10.5K with 20kwind the Elan 9K and the Pogo 11.5K, with 25K the Elan 9.3, the Pogo 13K.

At 150º with 16k wind the Elan will be making 8.7K, the Pogo 10.5, with 20k wind the Elan 9K, the Pogo 11.5K, with 25K the Elan 11K, the Pogo 15.5K.

Consider that 25K is not a lot of wind to go downwind. At 25k the apparent wind on the Pogo it will be something like 13K.

These are speeds with unloaded boats and with a cruising load, even if the type of cruisers that use these boats travel light, the differences to the polar speeds will be bigger and differences of 1 or even 1,5K in what regards planning or semi planning speeds are to be expected but even so that makes the Pogo a boat capable of planning speeds while cruising (as our friend Eric had verified) while the Elan will be pretty much limited to semi planing speeds, unless on rare occasions where the conditions allow it to sail downwind with 30 or 35K.

Then the Elan speeds downwind at 150º will be 13K and 15K respectively. Even with a light cruising load the Elan will go to planing speeds with that kind of wind, but it will be just in much less occasions than on a Pogo 12.50 that needs a lot less wind to do that.

That is what I wanted to say on the post regarding the Elan 400. Note than in that the Elan is not worse and probably is better than other performance boats like the Salona 41, the Dehler 41 or the First 40, but to compare with a Pogo in what regards cruising boats and speed downwind we would need a boat like the JPK 38.

The real limitation of the Elan 400 is weight. Have that boat with less 1,5T and with a more "tendue" hull (that the difference of weight would make possible) and we will have probably a boat to match the Pogo downwind and to beat it upwind. That weight is not impossible or hard, just a lot more expensive

Regards

Paulo
EricKLYC likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-23-2013 at 08:30 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4133  
Old 05-23-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Fareast 31

This one is super modern....and not European. It is Chinese

What a boat!!!! 1800kg with 1200 of ballast, yes it is not a mistake, 67% of B/D ratio, a record and not on a very narrow boat (2.95m) The ballast is all on a bulb 2.10m. This is an incredible powerful boat: 1800kg to 65m2 of sail? That is pretty incredible....and Chinese, all in carbon of course. A Simonis / Voogd design like the previous and less aggressive but certainly cheaper Fareast 26.

The Fareast 26 impressed me when I saw it in Dusseldorf some years ago but I bet this one will impress me even more. It will be there next year.





DiasDePlaya likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4134  
Old 05-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 660
Thanks: 4
Thanked 48 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 9
knuterikt is on a distinguished road
Re: Elan 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This is not an expensive boat and the building techniques are not top due to price management. It would be easy to make this boat with less 1000/1500kg for a higher price. That should be enough to change the Polar curve in what regards the wind needed to have it planing, that now is as high as 25/30k.
Here is an interesting press release from the Norwegian distributor for Elan

source Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter | Fjordsail http://www.fjordsail.no/
Quote:
Fjord Sail renew distribution agreement with Elan

After a brief periode with disagreement about strategy and warranty conditions, Fjord Sail and Elan have found back to a basis for future cooperation. Elan will renew their focus on the performance line with focus on speed and comfort. A weight program has been initiated with the goal of producing lighter yachts in the future to ensure even better performance. Together Fjord Sail, Elan and key equipment vendors have found a way to honour Norwegian consumer laws in a way that secures the interests of all parties including the customer.

The objective of Fjord Sail is to be the leading distributor of performance oriented yachts in Norway. With the new focus of Elan we feel confident that we will be able to maintain this position in the future.

Tor Hove

Luka Modrian
As I have been able to pick up in the press here - Elan 400 is the boat that is going on a diet first.
PCP likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4135  
Old 05-23-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Elan 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post
Here is an interesting press release from the Norwegian distributor for Elan

source Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter | Fjordsail http://www.fjordsail.no/


As I have been able to pick up in the press here - Elan 400 is the boat that is going on a diet first.
Hi!

What the hell is a "weight program" and what "future" they are talking about? They are talking about the Elan 400 or about future boats? For reducing significantly the boat weight they have to improve building techniques/resins and work on a lighter interior. It is certainly possible since a Pogo 12.50 weights 5.5T and even if I don't believe too much on the announced weight it has at least 1.500kg less than the Elan 400.

But if the boat loss something like 1.5T than the hull should be redesigned to make it more "tendue" and more easier to plan.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4136  
Old 05-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 660
Thanks: 4
Thanked 48 Times in 44 Posts
Rep Power: 9
knuterikt is on a distinguished road
Re: Elan 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi!

What the hell is a "weight program" and what "future" they are talking about? They are talking about the Elan 400 or about future boats? For reducing significantly the boat weight they have to improve building techniques/resins and work on a lighter interior. It is certainly possible since a Pogo 12.50 weights 5.5T and even if I don't believe too much on the announced weight it has at least 1.500kg less than the Elan 400.

But if the boat loss something like 1.5T than the hull should be redesigned to make it more "tendue" and more easier to plan.

Regards

Paulo
A translation of a section of this article Fjord Sail og Elan fortsetter - SEILmagasinet
Quote:
NEW ELAN 400
Elan launched its new Elan 400 under the Dusseldorf trade fair in January. We talked to Hove on the show who thought then that the boat has not been as the yard promised it to be, it's too heavy. Improving it's part of the deal.

- The deck will be vacuum infused and will be built in vinyl ester. This is one of the improvements that will make it lighter

This should not increases the price, the boat must not get so expensive that it gets uninteresting.

Tor Hove says he has ordered an Elan 400 being delivered in August. It will at the Orust fair and this is a boat that under any circumstances will be weighing more than 7000 kilograms.

- There will be a weight program at the shipyard to address all models. You can say that I have been a catalyst for it, but I have always had the full support of designer Rob Humphreys, continues Hove.

One thing Hove points out is that he believes Elan is in a unique position to improve its existing products.

- We have the ability to improve, weight wise, the 310, 350 and 400 a lot. They will lose weight without compromising comfort, he said.

Last edited by knuterikt; 05-23-2013 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Corrected weight to 7000 kilograms
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to knuterikt For This Useful Post:
PCP (05-24-2013)
  #4137  
Old 05-23-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Elan 400

Thanks! So we are talking about less 500kg (not 1500g). That is nothing very radical, just a small improvement and should not be difficult with the alterations that are proposed. Sure, the boat will be slightly faster but still nothing like a Pogo, at least downwind. Anyway it is a good new and it will be a more interesting boat, no doubt
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-23-2013 at 07:35 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4138  
Old 05-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 192
Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
opc11 is on a distinguished road
Re: Polar speeds: Elan 400 - Pogo 12.50

Thanks Paulo! That was a lot more than I was ever expecting. If I understand you...(to summarize):

1. wind speed is reflected by the concentric circles
2. boat speed is represented by the colored lines
3. radius lines = angle to wind

"We are talking about 40ft boats that have a hull displacement speed of about 8.5K."

I'm guessing the above statement is not information that can be garnered from looking at polar charts? I'm also guessing this has to do with an equation which incorporates displacement and perhaps LWL??

Therefore, am I correct in stating polar charts say nothing about a hull's theoretical planning speed? I was wondering if the shape of the arc's depicting boat speed allowed one to interpret planning speed. Sounds like that may not be the case.

Thanks again.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4139  
Old 05-23-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Polar speeds: Elan 400 - Pogo 12.50

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Thanks Paulo! That was a lot more than I was ever expecting. If I understand you...(to summarize):

1. wind speed is reflected by the concentric circles
2. boat speed is represented by the colored lines
3. radius lines = angle to wind

"We are talking about 40ft boats that have a hull displacement speed of about 8.5K."

I'm guessing the above statement is not information that can be garnered from looking at polar charts? I'm also guessing this has to do with an equation which incorporates displacement and perhaps LWL??

Therefore, am I correct in stating polar charts say nothing about a hull's theoretical planning speed? I was wondering if the shape of the arc's depicting boat speed allowed one to interpret planning speed. Sounds like that may not be the case.

Thanks again.
Yes, that's about it.

The boat speed has only to do with LWL and can be calculated by a simple formula that you can find here:


You can find plenty calculators on line:

Displacement Hull Speed Calculator

Two boats with the same LWL have the same hull speed but that does not mean that the potential for speed on the two boats is equal. One can reach hull speed with much less wind than other, not to mention semi-planing speeds or planing speeds.

Regarding a "hull's theoretical planning speed" I am not sure what you mean. There are hulls that by design and weight of the boat will never go to planning speeds. Most cruising boats, specially old ones are displacement boats and most of the fast modern performance cruisers have a semi-displacement capability being very rares the ones that can reach planing speeds.

Planing speed is one that goes over hull speed with some margin.

The ones that can manage that need different wind forces to do that (as we have seen with the Elan and the Pogo). Some will went to planning speeds with less wind others with a lot more, some never will.

A boat designer using a VPP computer advanced program will know at what wind a given boat will plane (if it is design to do that). You only know when he prints the boat polars that have that data.

For a boat to have a planing potential it has to be very light and have a planing hull that means what the French call "tendue" and that I cannot express in English in any other way. That is not easy to have a cruising boat that light and there are not many around, most of them being cruiser racers. The Pogo is an exception in what regards not to be a cruiser racer but a performance cruiser.

In what regards planing potential the size of the boat is not significant, at least in a way LWL is for hull speed. You can have smaller boats that will go faster downwind and plan with less wind than bigger boats

Look at the polar of the Maestro 345 that I posted some posts back:



A smaller cruising boat that will be a lot faster than the Elan 400 downwind (I know the image is not good but the last line seems to be 20K wind).


Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-23-2013 at 09:25 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4140  
Old 05-24-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,163
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
M.a.t. 10.10

what an ugly name for a nice boat. The boat deserved a nice name, it is a Mills design made in Turkey, not very expensive for the overall quality and very fast. It is one of those cruiser racers that is more utilized for racing than for cruising but that has an nice interior and allows a family to have some nice cruising time.

The more limiting factor is the stove that is quite light and small but I am sure they will mount a better and heavier one if required.

The hull has some resemblances with the one from the Elan 400 and some differences being the two major ones being more "tendue" (because it is proportionally lighter) and the transom design with the Elan having the beam more brought back. Regarding the transom I am not sure that if Mills designed the boat now and not in 2010, it will not be a bit note close to the Elan's one but not much because this boat is pointed at top crew that whose main concern is a fast boat even if more difficult to sail.

Regarding the Elan I would love to see that boat with the same proportion of Displ/length and the same B/D ratio as the M.A.T. 10.10 with the hull a bit less deep and more "tendue", I mean with about 6000kg of displacement. I think the boat would be a knock down. I like more the Elan transom and the way the rocker is dealt on the aft part of the hull. It would give a boat that would plan almost as soon as the Pogo, with a superior upwind sailing performance, more comfortable and even if not as easy to sail downwind, easy enough for solo or short crew sailing. Kind of an ideal performance cruiser for me.







Another major difference is the B/D ratio that is much bigger on this boat (51%) and weight (4250kg) that is also proportionally much less, specially if we consider the big ballast. A very powerful boat and also one that will plane with a lot less wind than the Elan 400.









A very nice boat for the ones that want to race at top levell and arrive among the first, surrounded by bigger boats and want also to do some family cruising, not an extensive one without modifications on the boat (Tankage and stove) but nothing difficult to add if needed.

Here we can see one on the last "Semaine de Porquerolles", a French classic raced some days ago. It sails well and fast, no doubt about that




http://mat.com.tr/uploads/mat-1010-brochure.pdf

http://mat.com.tr/uploads/mat-1010-spec-0212.PDF
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-24-2013 at 07:44 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 8 (0 members and 8 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:42 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.